General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2021)

[Laika]

If you look at Bo's error. He had a slight bobble, but still got the ball fairly quickly to second. If you look at where the runner was going from 2nd to 3rd he was still along ways off the bag when Bo made the throw to second. Fowler must have had an incredibly large secondary lead and quick reactions to the hit to get to second as quickly to 2nd as he did. Even with the bobble, his throw to second would have been in time to get 95% of runners. Fowler doesn't get enough credit for that play. Still even with the bobble he had plenty of time to get the runner at first. These are the learning experiences young players go through. The throw to first later in the game was likely an over correction to get the sure out.

 

Bo has really good range. The diving play to his right he made the game before put that range on full display despite not getting the runner. He's quick too. He makes those diving plays and pops up. He has a solid arm. He might not have the best hands but I don't think he's a tire fire at short like Torres might be. Bo's very capable of making some highlight real plays, he just won't show the consistency like a tulowitzki did at short. He's more than capable of handling the position.

 

I'm more worried about Bo's at bats. He took a lot of walks in spring training and he's had zero in the regular season. He's just pressing, like many of the hitters. I have no doubt he's going to turn it around with the bat. There's a bunch of kids pressing. Vlad and Randall are carrying the team.

 

He's athletic and aggressive but not spectacularly athletic. It's not like we see him make a bunch of 5 star plays in between the errors.

 

He has been an inconsistent playmaker since entering the league.

 

I'm not concerned at all about the bat. He's a preternatural hitter, but he's a third baseman. His tendencies and skills make it possible for him to be an elite defensive third baseman too. Machado or Donaldson skill set, sort of.

[Laika]

It's just so frustratingly obvious that the best defensive alignment right now is Bo at third, Cavan at second, Semien at short. It's awkward as f*** that they are all out of position because Bo wants to be a shortstop.

[The Iceman]

It's just so frustratingly obvious that the best defensive alignment right now is Bo at third, Cavan at second, Semien at short. It's awkward as f*** that they are all out of position because Bo wants to be a shortstop.

 

This is ENTIRELY on management.

 

They put the players in their positions. Not the other way around. Vlad did want to play 3rd and they made the choice to put him at 1.

[Laika]

This is ENTIRELY on management.

 

They put the players in their positions. Not the other way around. Vlad did want to play 3rd and they made the choice to put him at 1.

 

You're not wrong. They also let him practice third base instead of first for the last two years, lol.

[The Iceman]

If you look at Bo's error. He had a slight bobble, but still got the ball fairly quickly to second. If you look at where the runner was going from 2nd to 3rd he was still along ways off the bag when Bo made the throw to second. Fowler must have had an incredibly large secondary lead and quick reactions to the hit to get to second as quickly to 2nd as he did. Even with the bobble, his throw to second would have been in time to get 95% of runners. Fowler doesn't get enough credit for that play. Still even with the bobble he had plenty of time to get the runner at first. These are the learning experiences young players go through. The throw to first later in the game was likely an over correction to get the sure out.

 

Bo has really good range. The diving play to his right he made the game before put that range on full display despite not getting the runner. He's quick too. He makes those diving plays and pops up. He has a solid arm. He might not have the best hands but I don't think he's a tire fire at short like Torres might be. Bo's very capable of making some highlight real plays, he just won't show the consistency like a tulowitzki did at short. He's more than capable of handling the position.

 

I'm more worried about Bo's at bats. He took a lot of walks in spring training and he's had zero in the regular season. He's just pressing, like many of the hitters. I have no doubt he's going to turn it around with the bat. There's a bunch of kids pressing. Vlad and Randall are carrying the team.

 

On the Fowler playVlad was not holding the runner at first. Bo was or should have been 100% aware of this. Where is TULO????

Bo is an awesome hitter. NEVER worry about his hitting. He will be .280 with all the power by seasons end. Do worry about his defense.

[RobinThicc]

The Fowler play I believe was a 3-2 count two outs, so the runners were going.

 

It was mostly poor decision making from Bo. Thats the 2nd time this season he's went to 2nd when he should have went to 1st.

[BigCecil]

Bo Bichette is a very bad shortstop. Sorry Bo. Time to slide over to second or third.

 

He is. I want to will him to not be, but he is. As balls are hit to him I get Jose Reyes flashback PTSD tremors, and then I remember the calming effect of steady 2015 Tulo.

 

Bo is going to be a very good bat, but he wont be playing SS too much longer sad to say. Weak D at SS is crippling and can't be hidden.

[saskjayfan]

On the Fowler playVlad was not holding the runner at first. Bo was or should have been 100% aware of this. Where is TULO????

Bo is an awesome hitter. NEVER worry about his hitting. He will be .280 with all the power by seasons end. Do worry about his defense.

 

I need to see more. The advanced defensive metrics in 19 and 20 have him as an average SS. The sample size is small though. Players can improve on defense. I'm not going to over react. My comment about Tulo was just referencing a short stop who had such great hands and was so smooth that he almost never made a mistake. I don't expect Bo to be that type of short stop. I think he'll have better range and make some great plays. We just have to put up with a few more mistakes. I think he can develop into a tick above average defensive short stop. Semien was not an all world defensive short stop when he first came up. He made mistakes, developed and improved.

 

We can play the short term game and put Semien at short stop for a guy who's signed for 1 year or do what's best for the next 5 years and let Bo develop. I need to see a lot more failure before I proclaim he can't handle the position. Regardless, the Jays are going to play Bo at short.

[G-Snarls]

He is. I want to will him to not be, but he is. As balls are hit to him I get Jose Reyes flashback PTSD tremors, and then I remember the calming effect of steady 2015 Tulo.

 

Bo is going to be a very good bat, but he wont be playing SS too much longer sad to say. Weak D at SS is crippling and can't be hidden.

 

Yankees have the same thing going on

 

As Laika pointed out the real bothersome thing is we have Semien on the roster who would likely make more plays at SS

[BigCecil]

Yankees have the same thing going on

 

As Laika pointed out the real bothersome thing is we have Semien on the roster who would likely make more plays at SS

 

Exactly. I see some posters say its ordained Bo plays SS. I don't agree. Vlad got the same talk at 3B. They will give Bo more of a shot because he isn't as bad at SS as Vlad is at 3B, but its not ordained. Mgm is smart enough to know, with our pitching staff, that bad D at short is jugular. Then again, they keep putting their faith in Buntoyo.

[glory]

There is a chance Bo is not a SS, but you can't give up on that at age 23. Semien was a bad SS when he started in the league as well and eventually turned into a really good one. Bo at SS is not Vlad at 3B. He has the tools to be solid there. Of course, the Jays likely won't want to spend too much development time with Bo since they will want to win sooner than later, but using him at short in 2021 was a logical decision. If he looks bad all season, then you reevaluate for 2022 when there is a strong SS class in free agency (or re-sign Semien if he has a good season).

[G-Snarls]

I expect our lineup does well against Quintana tonight

[Ex Player]

I expect our lineup does well against Quintana tonight

Damnit, you had to jinx them again didn't you

[BigCecil]

There is a chance Bo is not a SS, but you can't give up on that at age 23. Semien was a bad SS when he started in the league as well and eventually turned into a really good one. Bo at SS is not Vlad at 3B. He has the tools to be solid there. Of course, the Jays likely won't want to spend too much development time with Bo since they will want to win sooner than later, but using him at short in 2021 was a logical decision. If he looks bad all season, then you reevaluate for 2022 when there is a strong SS class in free agency (or re-sign Semien if he has a good season).

 

This is a likely scenario. Agreed although I'm not sure he does have the tools when it comes to hands. Its something most have or don't. Improvement is on the margins. Worth finding out if they are stone or not.

[Deadpool]

I expect our lineup does well against Quintana tonight

 

Vlad 4/4 with 4 solo homers. Panik gets a bloop single. 15 Ks for the team.

 

[Jimcanuck]

Jays have some top 10 prospects playing SS that are expected to move off the position. Groshans, Orelvis, Martin, Hiraldo all have position questions and the general expectation is they will need to move off SS.

 

It would be an easier decision to give him starts at 3B if there was a true SS prospect on the near horizon. As long as he is deemed fixable as a SS, and I think he is, it makes sense to keep starting him there. He'll make a few more errors than a Semien, but that's probably an OK tradeoff in the circumstances.

[The Iceman]

I think our SS of the present is Semien. Bichette is a wonderful fallback SS option.

 

our SS prospect for the future is Semien, Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Andrelton Simmons. Take your pick.

[G-Snarls]

Damnit, you had to jinx them again didn't you

 

LOL hopefully not

[G-Snarls]

I think our SS of the present is Semien. Bichette is a wonderful fallback SS option.

 

our SS prospect for the future is Semien, Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Andrelton Simmons. Take your pick.

 

Story

 

Buyer's market

 

No way all those guys get Lindor/Tatis money and most won't get anywhere near it

 

There aren't enough teams with the money and the need

[Jimcanuck]

I think our SS of the present is Semien. Bichette is a wonderful fallback SS option.

 

our SS prospect for the future is Semien, Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Andrelton Simmons. Take your pick.

 

No I don't think so. Jays have too many other financial pressures coming up to sign one of those guys to a multi year. Simmons wouldn't get a multi year but he is hurt often and weak with the bat.

 

If they buy anything FA, it will be pitching.

[Jays24]

Damn, where were all you guys yesterday when I was saying Bo is not a SS given how he looks right now. I can't see the team keeping at SS for even this season with a better option right beside him at 2B.

 

Putting his needs to develop over wins/losses this year is a fine balance. No players ego should be put ahead of the team just like we did with Vladdy at 3B. We're not there yet with Bo but things better turn around soon.

[Jimcanuck]

Damn, where were all you guys yesterday when I was saying Bo is not a SS given how he looks right now. I can't see the team keeping at SS for even this season with a better option right beside him at 2B.

 

Putting his needs to develop over wins/losses this year is a fine balance. No players ego should be put ahead of the team just like we did with Vladdy at 3B. We're not there yet with Bo but things better turn around soon.

 

Yes it is a balance. Remember Gurriel was eventually moved from SS to the OF. Moving Bo off SS will happen if he doesn't show improvement over the next several weeks.

[Krylian]

Damn, where were all you guys yesterday when I was saying Bo is not a SS given how he looks right now. I can't see the team keeping at SS for even this season with a better option right beside him at 2B.

 

Putting his needs to develop over wins/losses this year is a fine balance. No players ego should be put ahead of the team just like we did with Vladdy at 3B. We're not there yet with Bo but things better turn around soon.

 

If...IF the Jays do move him off SS this season I see it happening as part of an injury. Probably something like, pulled hammy or quad, he goes on the DL...Semien moves over and gets comfortable... He comes back after a short minor league rehab at 2B, the team puts him at 2B and provides some garbage excuse as to why he moved to 2B. They won't do it as a 'You're not good enough, get your ass to 2B' scenario.

[G-Snarls]

If...IF the Jays do move him off SS this season I see it happening as part of an injury. Probably something like, pulled hammy or quad, he goes on the DL...Semien moves over and gets comfortable... He comes back after a short minor league rehab at 2B, the team puts him at 2B and provides some garbage excuse as to why he moved to 2B. They won't do it as a 'You're not good enough, get your ass to 2B' scenario.

 

"Playing 2B will make you less likely to re-injure your leg, Bo. That's all. Just keep hitting and get yer sexy long haired self right back out there. You're gonna get paid to smash it my man". Firm Uncle Atkins butt smack and he goes to it and never looks back.

 

Something like that

[Jays24]

If...IF the Jays do move him off SS this season I see it happening as part of an injury. Probably something like, pulled hammy or quad, he goes on the DL...Semien moves over and gets comfortable... He comes back after a short minor league rehab at 2B, the team puts him at 2B and provides some garbage excuse as to why he moved to 2B. They won't do it as a 'You're not good enough, get your ass to 2B' scenario.

 

Oh I agree. The way we can talk here is totally different as to how Bo will actually be approached. You have to be delicate with Bo about this since he clearly wants the SS position and is the face of our franchise.

 

It was slightly easier with Vlad when he showed up to camp out of shape so he could be blamed for the decision. With Bo, the performance will need to be so obviously bad that we have no choice if he remains healthy. Going your route would be easier but it's tough to assume potential injuries can be your solution to a problem. We're not there yet but I'm sure our management is monitoring this closely.

[G-Snarls]

Oh I agree. The way we can talk here is totally different as to how Bo will actually be approached. You have to be delicate with Bo about this since he clearly wants the SS position and is the face of our franchise.

 

It was slightly easier with Vlad when he showed up to camp out of shape so he could be blamed for the decision. With Bo, the performance will need to be so obviously bad that we have no choice if he remains healthy. Going your route would be easier but it's tough to assume potential injuries can be your solution to a problem. We're not there yet but I'm sure our management is monitoring this closely.

 

They have to be

 

The offiense is going to be fine

 

They talked about prioritizing run prevention this off season and then came up a top SP short so they can't hide from bad defense. I'm sure they are carefully watching this infield all the time.

[saskjayfan]

Today would be an ideal day to let Vlad play 3rd with Rowdy at first and Kirk at DH if Lourdes can't go today. I highly doubt it will happen, but would nice see them get creative and get guys like Kirk and Rowdy some ABs to help them get going.

[Deadpool]

Today would be an ideal day to let Vlad play 3rd with Rowdy at first and Kirk at DH if Lourdes can't go today. I highly doubt it will happen, but would nice see them get creative and get guys like Kirk and Rowdy some ABs to help them get going.

 

I'm pretty sure Chuckles is straight "YOU CANNOT USE YOUR BACKUP CATCHER AS THE DH EVER BECAUSE WHAT IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO YOUR MAIN CATCHER, I CANNOT MANAGE WELL ENOUGH TO MAKE MOVES IF THAT UNLIKELY THING HAPPENS!"

[glory]

I think our SS of the present is Semien. Bichette is a wonderful fallback SS option.

 

our SS prospect for the future is Semien, Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Andrelton Simmons. Take your pick.

 

If Semien ends up being a ~4 WAR player at 2B/SS again this season, and he likes the org, then he's easily the best medium term option for 2022-25 since he's already on the roster. What type of contract he'd be looking for is the question. I really don't see either of Groshans or Martin being SS's at the big league level (at least not any better than Bo is) so if Bichette is deemed to be more of a 2B/3B for 2022-beyond, then they'll need to invest in a real SS. Beyond Semien, I would think Atkins, given his love for everything Houston Astros the past few years, would be all in on Correa, but he's going to want a huge contract (much bigger and longer than Springer's deal). Semien might just be the easiest and most logical solution, and probably wouldn't take more than a 3-4 year deal.

[max silver]

Damn, where were all you guys yesterday when I was saying Bo is not a SS given how he looks right now. I can't see the team keeping at SS for even this season with a better option right beside him at 2B.

 

Putting his needs to develop over wins/losses this year is a fine balance. No players ego should be put ahead of the team just like we did with Vladdy at 3B. We're not there yet with Bo but things better turn around soon.

 

Moving Bo off short stop isn't going to magically fix the defensive miscues unfortunately. He's had trouble handling balls cleanly and ends up having to rush his throws a good chunk of the time. This will continue to cause exactly the same issues whether he's at short, third or second base. Maybe a position move has him handling the ball less often though.