Rumour: More Cheating?

[DigitalRock]

That shizz with MLB licensed games started back in 2004 when EA and 2K sports got into a war of exclusive licenses... 2K mainly bought it as a revenge of losing the exclusive deal for NFL games to EA. It effectively destroyed competition as the MLB 2K series eventually faltered and EA never showed serious interest in reviving the MVP franchise since. We were just lucky that first party game producers like Sony were excluded from the license deal and were able to make decent baseball games, because every other effort was god awful (Triple play, RBI baseball, etc). I tried the the RBI baseball last year for sh*ts and giggles and it was like returning to the days of Nintendo baseball, lol (which may have its place for something simpler like mobile games maybe but has no business being made for consoles). As I'm no longer a console owner and mainly play PC games, I'm glad I can finally play the Show this upcoming season.

 

Delete

[JFD]

I guess this makes Álvarez questionable as well. I remember watching him during the season and noticed that he would lay off pitches before they were even thrown, multiple times.

[Deadpool]

That shizz with MLB licensed games started back in 2004 when EA and 2K sports got into a war of exclusive licenses... 2K mainly bought it as a revenge of losing the exclusive deal for NFL games to EA. It effectively destroyed competition as the MLB 2K series eventually faltered and EA never showed serious interest in reviving the MVP franchise since. We were just lucky that first party game producers like Sony were excluded from the license deal and were able to make decent baseball games, because every other effort was god awful (Triple play, RBI baseball, etc). I tried the the RBI baseball last year for sh*ts and giggles and it was like returning to the days of Nintendo baseball, lol (which may have its place for something simpler like mobile games maybe but has no business being made for consoles). As I'm no longer a console owner and mainly play PC games, I'm glad I can finally play the Show this upcoming season.

 

Yeah, there hasn't been a decent (licensed) baseball game since MVP 2005. That really sucks.

[Beans]

With spring training in 27 days, this year will be full of rumours, questions, jokes, and internet memes—and fans might boo every single time an Astros player gets a hit on the road. Edited January 17, 2020 by Beans

[EMK19]

“ Former MLB pitcher and 1993 AL Cy Young winner Jack McDowell alleged in a radio appearance Friday morning that the White Sox had an illegal sign-stealing operation at old Comiskey Park in the late 1980s, and that Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa was the instigator of the scheme.”

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/mlb/news/jack-mcdowell-80s-white-sox-tony-la-russa-cheated/ve2uhq2vxta41ej7ny6cd18ar

 

At least he didn’t mention us in this, we absolutely destroyed him throughout ‘93, lol.

 

One thing I’ve always been curious about actually, is how in the 93 World Series DVD , before Joe’s HR, Paul Molitor was talking about Mitch’s pitch selection and knew that Joe was gonna get a slider for that historic swing... I always wondered if he had managed to relay that information to Joe beforehand, or it was just simply just something he noticed from 1st base without relaying it.

[Spanky99]

lol... butt hurt pitchers on the mend, new market inefficiency. Edited January 17, 2020 by Spanky99

[glory]

I saw this last year and I was about to post it here after reading everyone s***ing on BAM. Gary Vee nailed it, like you said.

 

But while baseball's core audience is still old boomers right now—they struggle with Gen Xers and millennials—Generation Z (22 and younger) likes baseball very much. At least that's according to a 6,000-person study by both the NYU Preston Robert Tisch Institute for Global Sport and Fox Sports.

 

"When it comes to baseball, Gen Z is all in. For perspective, millennial and Gen X sports fans have a strong preference for the NFL as their favorite sport — by nearly a 2-to-1 margin. For Gen Z, MLB has rallied to pull even with the NFL as their favorite sport. That’s partly because football declines in popularity as you move from Gen X to millennials, and finally to Gen Z. But for baseball, millennials are the low-water mark, with Gen Z representing a significant resurgence."

 

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2019/07/08/Opinion/Gennaro.aspx

 

Hopefully someone at MLB read that and is in the process of loosening up the content restrictions, because they actually have a shot at the future with these zoomers.

 

Interesting. The one thing baseball has over all the other sports is quantity (there's a shitload of games) and MLB TV is very Gen Z friendly. I got MLB TV on my phone during the season, and it's a great app. Can watch every game, can pick which feed you want to watch, get highlights of runs/relevant plays almost instantly, get the entire game available to watch later if you want to, and so on. With Gen Z the game itself is almost irrelevant. No one is going to sit and watch a 3 hour game on TV anymore, but an app that allows you to consume anything you want is a damn good start. That's why it is frustrating that they don't allow more freedom for YouTubers to post MLB clips, although maybe they are becoming more liberal with it because I do see certain videos out there now, and Jomboy seems to be allowed to post stuff with his commentary over it. One of the things Manfred said in an interview before was that MLB was trying to get kids to play baseball at a young age, and that to me will be a difference maker. A kid may not have the attention span to watch baseball when they are young, certainly not with so many options available, but playing the sport itself? That's more likely to create a long term fan.

 

It's going to be interesting to see what happens to MLB in the next 10-20 years. I think it's clear they will probably never be a mainstream/national sport again, but they can still thrive as a regional sport. A lockout after 2021 is not going to help though so they better not go that route.

[Bobthe4th]

Interesting. The one thing baseball has over all the other sports is quantity (there's a shitload of games) and MLB TV is very Gen Z friendly. I got MLB TV on my phone during the season, and it's a great app. Can watch every game, can pick which feed you want to watch, get highlights of runs/relevant plays almost instantly, get the entire game available to watch later if you want to, and so on. With Gen Z the game itself is almost irrelevant. No one is going to sit and watch a 3 hour game on TV anymore, but an app that allows you to consume anything you want is a damn good start. That's why it is frustrating that they don't allow more freedom for YouTubers to post MLB clips, although maybe they are becoming more liberal with it because I do see certain videos out there now, and Jomboy seems to be allowed to post stuff with his commentary over it. One of the things Manfred said in an interview before was that MLB was trying to get kids to play baseball at a young age, and that to me will be a difference maker. A kid may not have the attention span to watch baseball when they are young, certainly not with so many options available, but playing the sport itself? That's more likely to create a long term fan.

 

It's going to be interesting to see what happens to MLB in the next 10-20 years. I think it's clear they will probably never be a mainstream/national sport again, but they can still thrive as a regional sport. A lockout after 2021 is not going to help though so they better not go that route.

 

I've always said that the number of games is a bad thing as hype comes from fans and media looking forward to and then reviewing games, which doesn't really happen in the regular season when teams play every day.

 

But you are 100% right that kids playing the sport are more likely to then want to watch elite players.

 

Baseball has got an advantage over American Football because it's safer, and over basketball because you don't need to be a physical freak. Unfortunately baseball needs quite expensive specialist equipment, and you spend quite a lot of time not doing anything (unless you are a pitcher).

 

More youth initiatives, and better marketing of potential heroes, is the way to increase fan interest ten years down the line.

[ChrisS]

Altuve is lying through his teeth....He is yelling for teammates to not rip off his jersey in one of the biggest moments of his life, because he is too shy, and his wife got mad? Two different things. That makes zero sense. Baseball may not have found enough evidence but something is wrong here. He then runs off the field , and changes....sure Ok Altuve. Clearly hiding something... Baseball is incompetent. If not for Fiers and others this never comes to light, baseball is reactive, not proactive.

 

Folks on twitter did a better investigation than MLB, cannot even trust MLB, they prob don't want it getting out. It's 2020 you cannot hide.

The wife excuse is an absolute lie.

There are several pics of Altuve shirtless on his Instagram

[ChrisS]

OMG the Astros were using ingenious tactics to try to win games. Time to send the whole team to the barracks! They are ruining the integrity of the game! Meanwhile there are teams intentionally trying to push for 120 losses in a season and that's okay.

 

I'm a lot more offended at the Houston Astros racking up multiple 100+ loss seasons in a pathetic attempt to hoard draft picks in the early 2010's than I am for anything they did in 2017. Punish them for that.

 

In my opinion what Altuve and Bregman are accused of is worse than what Barry Bonds did and I think Barry Bonds is a tool.

[Dick_Pole]

Hitting a baseball at fast speeds and with tricky movement has to be one of the hardest things to do in all of sports. Someone who is able to do that at a high level is a freak to me.

 

No matter what kind of skill level you have, if you are playing soccer, basketball or hockey, you are at least playing those sports. Bush league baseball is softball, which isn't baseball. Also there is no such thing as 3 on 3 baseball or pond baseball. Those are the types of things baseball has to overcome.

[Beans]

[Beans]

Interesting article in Sports Illustrated, by Tom Verducci, about how modern baseball now feels like a "business" where teams are competing to find an edge, rather than a "sport."

 

"Baseball earned a place in so many hearts on its romance. But it has begun to sound like the insurance and banking industries."

 

"[P]layers become 'assets' or 'a two-win player.' Relief pitchers are 'fungible.' ... The chance to score a run, win a game or secure a postseason berth are defined as a finite percentage."

 

"We don't want championships that make us do mental gymnastics to decide whether they are inauthentic. We don't want player analysis to be derivative valuation. ... We want a clean game decided by fair competition. Clean it up."

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/16/astros-cheating-scandal-baseball-crisis

[Bobthe4th]

Interesting article in Sports Illustrated, by Tom Verducci, about how modern baseball now feels like a "business" where teams are competing to find an edge, rather than a "sport."

 

"Baseball earned a place in so many hearts on its romance. But it has begun to sound like the insurance and banking industries."

 

"[P]layers become 'assets' or 'a two-win player.' Relief pitchers are 'fungible.' ... The chance to score a run, win a game or secure a postseason berth are defined as a finite percentage."

 

"We don't want championships that make us do mental gymnastics to decide whether they are inauthentic. We don't want player analysis to be derivative valuation. ... We want a clean game decided by fair competition. Clean it up."

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/16/astros-cheating-scandal-baseball-crisis

 

The global appeal of sport comes from the emotional connection fans feel to teams and players and moments. But a large part of baseball has always been about statistics.

 

Though IMO the prevalence of analytics does only appeal to a certain kind of nerd (most of us here are like that but the average “casual” sports fan isn’t) and things like there being a definitive answer to whether a player is good or not isn’t necessarily good for the fans. Oh you like your team’s CF? Well actually this spreadsheet tells us that’s he’s only the 8th best player on the team. The clinical nature of baseball encourages non hardcore fans to mainly ignore watching the regular season (and instead play fantasy baseball).

[Stoneyen]

The global appeal of sport comes from the emotional connection fans feel to teams and players and moments. But a large part of baseball has always been about statistics.

 

Though IMO the prevalence of analytics does only appeal to a certain kind of nerd (most of us here are like that but the average “casual” sports fan isn’t) and things like there being a definitive answer to whether a player is good or not isn’t necessarily good for the fans. Oh you like your team’s CF? Well actually this spreadsheet tells us that’s he’s only the 8th best player on the team. The clinical nature of baseball encourages non hardcore fans to mainly ignore watching the regular season (and instead play fantasy baseball).

 

I think this is a pretty interesting discussion. In talking to friends I've found myself saying that although baseball is my favorite sport to follow my favorite team, it is by far my least favorite to watch. As the league as gotten smarter and as I've embraced the sabermetric side I've found that I've become much more interested in the organization building and big picture view of the Jays than the actual Jays games themselves. It probably doesn't hep that they've been awful the last few years, but I really can't even bring myself to watch an entire marquee Sunday night matchup (unlike how I'll watch a big NFL or NBA matchup nightly).

[TheHurl]

And when has it ever been on the teams to market the players nationally. Stop blaming people who are playing the game intelligently and throw some of your Billions into a marketing budget. Make players accessible to fans and learn to market the analytics you f***ing whiners.

[Bobthe4th]

I think this is a pretty interesting discussion. In talking to friends I've found myself saying that although baseball is my favorite sport to follow my favorite team, it is by far my least favorite to watch. As the league as gotten smarter and as I've embraced the sabermetric side I've found that I've become much more interested in the organization building and big picture view of the Jays than the actual Jays games themselves. It probably doesn't hep that they've been awful the last few years, but I really can't even bring myself to watch an entire marquee Sunday night matchup (unlike how I'll watch a big NFL or NBA matchup nightly).

 

Yeah it is interesting! Baseball's repetitiveness and glut of games has always emphasised the stats over actually watching every game, and we now have more stats than ever before.

 

I don’t think baseball is doomed to become a minor sport in North America, but I struggle to see how it can become more popular (especially outside of the existing markets) without radical change - which will never happen.

[Abomination]

Yeah it is interesting! Baseball's repetitiveness and glut of games has always emphasised the stats over actually watching every game, and we now have more stats than ever before.

 

I don’t think baseball is doomed to become a minor sport in North America, but I struggle to see how it can become more popular (especially outside of the existing markets) without radical change - which will never happen.

 

I think they just need to shorten some of the wasted time:

Enforce a quicker pitch clock.

Enforce batters not stepping out.

Allow communications through technology to eliminate the time a pitcher and catcher need to agree on a pitch.

Better integrate some of the advanced technology they have to make replays and the time between pitches or batters more interesting to the viewer.

Find a way to interactively engage people. A lot of people like to challenge themselves and compete, even if it's not on the field.

[Beans]

And when has it ever been on the teams to market the players nationally. Stop blaming people who are playing the game intelligently and throw some of your Billions into a marketing budget. Make players accessible to fans and learn to market the analytics you f***ing whiners.

One of Manfred's worst moments, for sure.

[Stangstag]

The only way baseball becomes more popular IMO is if they significantly cut the number of games per season. Like under 100. There’s just way too many games for people to get excited over a single game’s outcome.

 

I don’t want that to happen though, as my love for baseball is largely due to the fact I can watch a game on any given day from April-October

[Beans]

As the league as gotten smarter and as I've embraced the sabermetric side I've found that I've become much more interested in the organization building and big picture view of the Jays than the actual Jays games themselves.

I struggle with this, too.

[Boxcar]

Trevor Bauer on PMT from today. This isn't the entire interview (his talks about his own pitching and drone enthusiasm are great) but he stole my point about Fiers I was going to talk about tomorrow. So f*** you Trev, but I love you at the same time.

 

 

For full interview, it starts at 52:21 here, though I'd obviously recommend listening to the whole thing.

[Deadpool]

Yeah it is interesting! Baseball's repetitiveness and glut of games has always emphasised the stats over actually watching every game, and we now have more stats than ever before.

 

I don’t think baseball is doomed to become a minor sport in North America, but I struggle to see how it can become more popular (especially outside of the existing markets) without radical change - which will never happen.

 

They should hire some of the people who market baseball in Japan and Korea, they are killing it over there.

[Brownie19]

I think this is a pretty interesting discussion. In talking to friends I've found myself saying that although baseball is my favorite sport to follow my favorite team, it is by far my least favorite to watch. As the league as gotten smarter and as I've embraced the sabermetric side I've found that I've become much more interested in the organization building and big picture view of the Jays than the actual Jays games themselves. It probably doesn't hep that they've been awful the last few years, but I really can't even bring myself to watch an entire marquee Sunday night matchup (unlike how I'll watch a big NFL or NBA matchup nightly).

 

I agree with this, although, as I age and am caught up in the hussle and bussle of raising 3 boys - I've actually found that I don't really enjoy watching any sport from start to finish. I'm at the arena 5-8 times per week, but I loath actually watching it on TV and I truly no longer enjoy watching football (which I think may be linked to quitting fantasy football 2-3 years ago).

 

I still prefer to watch baseball and basketball; however, most of the time, the game is simply on in the background as I do other things....until playoff time. I tend to focus in on the games then.

[Dick_Pole]

RE: slowness of games.

 

Have you not seen an NFL game lately? Every f***ing five minutes there is even extra lag time (compared to the regular lag time between plays) because of injuries, challenge flags, video confirmation or the winning team trying to game the play clock. There is NO WAY baseball is worse than the NFL in terms of pacing. Yet the NFL is doing just fine.

 

Re: stats and players.

 

Without any hard data, I'm pretty sure that there is a high correlation between players who perform well using nerd stats (as well as counting stats) and them being enjoyable to watch.

[Stoneyen]

RE: slowness of games.

 

Have you not seen an NFL game lately? Every f***ing five minutes there is even extra lag time (compared to the regular lag time between plays) because of injuries, challenge flags, video confirmation or the winning team trying to game the play clock. There is NO WAY baseball is worse than the NFL in terms of pacing. Yet the NFL is doing just fine.

 

Re: stats and players.

 

Without any hard data, I'm pretty sure that there is a high correlation between players who perform well using nerd stats (as well as counting stats) and them being enjoyable to watch.

 

There’s definitely more of a sense of urgency in NFL games and arguably more strategy between plays and more action on given play. But I think it really just comes down to their being way less games. I mean imagine if the Jays had 16 games a year. I’d be on the edge of my seat for every pitch.

[dineke]

Just too many strikeouts these days. Especially in the playoffs, every inning there's a new pitcher who throws 98 mph and batters pretty much have no chance most of the time.

[Spanky99]

RE: slowness of games.

 

Have you not seen an NFL game lately? Every f***ing five minutes there is even extra lag time (compared to the regular lag time between plays) because of injuries, challenge flags, video confirmation or the winning team trying to game the play clock. There is NO WAY baseball is worse than the NFL in terms of pacing. Yet the NFL is doing just fine.

 

Re: stats and players.

 

Without any hard data, I'm pretty sure that there is a high correlation between players who perform well using nerd stats (as well as counting stats) and them being enjoyable to watch.

 

You're on fire today, ya Dick, attaboy!

[Spanky99]

There’s definitely more of a sense of urgency in NFL games and arguably more strategy between plays and more action on given play. But I think it really just comes down to their being way less games. I mean imagine if the Jays had 16 games a year. I’d be on the edge of my seat for every pitch.

 

You didn't just do that, did you? lol

[max silver]

RE: slowness of games.

 

Have you not seen an NFL game lately? Every f***ing five minutes there is even extra lag time (compared to the regular lag time between plays) because of injuries, challenge flags, video confirmation or the winning team trying to game the play clock. There is NO WAY baseball is worse than the NFL in terms of pacing. Yet the NFL is doing just fine.

 

Re: stats and players.

 

Without any hard data, I'm pretty sure that there is a high correlation between players who perform well using nerd stats (as well as counting stats) and them being enjoyable to watch.

 

That's a great point, supposedly the average NFL game has only 11 minutes of actual action in it. A quick look on google says an MLB game has about 18 minutes of action. Why MLB gets so much grief for slow pace of play buy NFL gets none of this grief just doesn't make sense.