NLCS SGDT: Dodgers/Brewers

[G-Snarls]

Go Jansen

[Brownie19]

I'm happy Jeffress went up in flames because I wouldn't mind if the whole, "Well I'll just spam relievers every game and win a WS" thought process fails.

 

Can I ask why you'd want it to fail? You hate progressive thinking?

[Spanky99]

Woohoo... that would've been tough down 2-0.

[G-Snarls]

Dodgers win

 

Going back to L. A. tied 1-1

[glory]

Yeah seriously I don’t mind a bullpen game every now and then over the course of a long season but seeing it so often in the playoffs is not fun to watch. Watching an “old school” ace like Verlander is so much more appealing as a viewer than 1-2 inning appearances for 7 different guys.

[G-Snarls]

Is. Is. Weird that 2 NLDS games are over and the ALCS hasnt even started yet? Edited October 14, 2018 by G-Snarls

[Brownie19]

Do you hate platoon hitting too?

 

 

For me - it's just so refreshing to see teams think outside the box and use unconventional strategies to win baseball games. I mean thank god managers are no longer these dinosaurs who blindly set their lineups based on "tradition". They no longer bat the Ben Revere type hitter leadoff - or completely ignore LH/RH splits and start the 'vet'. The next step will be to eliminate the closer and to simply use your best reliever in the most critical situation.

 

I don't mind what the Brewers are doing at all. They don't have the 200 inning horses, but they've found a way to maximize their talent. Guys like Woodruff and Burnes are really talented pitchers - potential starters. I don't love guys coming in for a batter or two, but to see those guys (and Hader) who can come in and throw 2, 3 or 4 of the middle innings is fun to watch.

 

As for the kids - there will always be the Verlander, Sale, etc guys that you can dream of becoming. But thank god we can now find meaningful roles for guys who aren't quite good enough to be 200 inning starters...those guys can be 2 - 3 inning studs out of the pen instead of being run out there for too long and lit up - or wasted as a 1 inning reliever. There's no need to run Jake Westbrook out for 200 innings in today's game.

 

You should enjoy Sale/Verlander tonight at least.

[Brownie19]

I do love watching Verlander though. Watching him get strong late in the game is a thing of beauty.

[Abomination]

Yeah seriously I don’t mind a bullpen game every now and then over the course of a long season but seeing it so often in the playoffs is not fun to watch. Watching an “old school” ace like Verlander is so much more appealing as a viewer than 1-2 inning appearances for 7 different guys.

 

The best thing they could do is eliminate the off days during a series. So you have to travel across country? Big whoop, it's the same for both teams. No off days and the bullpen strategy becomes a lot less viable (not to mention you might actually have to use more than 3 starters even if you don't). The added benefit is you probably aren't playing games in November either, since things aren't so drawn out.

[Brownie19]

The best thing they could do is eliminate the off days during a series. So you have to travel across country? Big whoop, it's the same for both teams. No off days and the bullpen strategy becomes a lot less viable (not to mention you might actually have to use more than 3 starters even if you don't). The added benefit is you probably aren't playing games in November either, since things aren't so drawn out.

 

Agreed. The days off drive me nuts. Complete opposite of the regular season.

[Spanky99]

Agreed. The days off drive me nuts. Complete opposite of the regular season.

 

TV rights fellas.

[DigitalRock]

I just think the degree of difficulty for a true SP is much easier to appreciate and more entertaining to watch.

 

Pitching staffs are being completely homogenized. At what point do we just lose interest because a guy can throw 99 with a wipe out slider for 15 pitches? Congrats, you're one of 150 guys who can do this now? You lose a lot of the game long cat and mouse between a pitcher and a lineup and that is always entertaining to watch. It just becomes, "Wow this hitter is just going to have to guess and swing as soon as the ball comes out of the hand". Over and over and over.

 

In September it's even more gross. Just anonymous dude after anonymous dude coming in for 1 or 2 batters.

 

Of course it's progressive and potentially optimal to employ this strategy (although the Brewers might run out of gas quick). Is it necessarily more worthy of viewing? I don't really think so. Are kids just supposed to grow up wanting to become 3 batter relievers lol? Just essentially a pitching apparatus that is necessary to facilitate the game.

 

I agree with this...it is not making the sport more exciting to watch that is for sure.

[Orgfiller]

I agree with this...it is not making the sport more exciting to watch that is for sure.

 

To each their own but I completely disagree. IMO it's much more fun watching Corbin Burnes, Brandon Woodruff and Josh Hader combine to dominate for 8 innings than watching Wade Miley junkball through 6 innings. The Verlanders and Sales of the world are still gonna be around, but we'll get a lot less of mediocre starters pitching in the game's highest stage and barely above average ones getting predictably hit around a third time around.

[Brownie19]

To each their own but I completely disagree. IMO it's much more fun watching Corbin Burnes, Brandon Woodruff and Josh Hader combine to dominate for 8 innings than watching Wade Miley junkball through 6 innings. The Verlanders and Sales of the world are still gonna be around, but we'll get a lot less of mediocre starters pitching in the game's highest stage and barely above average ones getting predictably hit around a third time around.

 

Exactly - well put. I don't really get the counter argument. Maybe it creates more runs when the barely above average pitcher predictably gets hit around the 3rd time through the order - which gets perceived as the hitter winning the cat and mouse game?

[Abomination]

To each their own but I completely disagree. IMO it's much more fun watching Corbin Burnes, Brandon Woodruff and Josh Hader combine to dominate for 8 innings than watching Wade Miley junkball through 6 innings. The Verlanders and Sales of the world are still gonna be around, but we'll get a lot less of mediocre starters pitching in the game's highest stage and barely above average ones getting predictably hit around a third time around.

 

I'm not sure I really want just about every game to be a pitching battle, where if they get up a run or two it's basically game over.

[Abomination]

I would love if there was like one less spot in the pen so every reliever had an increase in workload and as a result had to dial it back a notch. Instead of 99, they have to go 95 and come up with an actual 2nd pitch or fringe 3rd pitch. And sometimes they have to go 2 innings.

 

I really wouldn't mind seeing if Miley can s*** ball his way for as long as possible because there isn't a surplus of Reliever 3000's warming in the pen. Manager has way more decisions to make. GM has way more decisions to make in roster construction. I feel like nowadays it's just, "Well we can sign a couple s*** ballers to give us innings but when it really matters we'll have 8 guys in the pen who all throw 99 and make 500K so whatever."

 

"Oh ya and we have this guy Josh James in the minors, and if he only has to throw 10 f***ing pitches, he'll hit 100 and wipe these dudes off the planet."

 

How about no, he has throw 35 pitches instead.

 

Reducing the roster probably wouldn't do much, you'd just see more emphasis on flexible position players and the pens would stay the say. Making teams play every day in the playoffs (like they basically do in the regular season) would help a lot. Also, finding some way to reduce the insane number of pitching changes would be nice. Maybe you have to face 3 batters or the end of an inning (or injury) before you can be replaced. Seeing 3 or 4 pitching changes an inning really sucks.

[Orgfiller]

I'm not sure I really want just about every game to be a pitching battle, where if they get up a run or two it's basically game over.

 

I mean you could say the same thing about a traditionally elite pitching staff like the Astros', it still isn't likely to stop a good offense on most nights. Plus it's not like every team has Burnes, Woodruff and Hader types and even they won't be able to pitch for more than two days in a row. For example, in the Rays' case the "opener" was simply used as a matchup thing for the first 1-2 innings before the more traditional starter would take over and pitch 4-7 innings after that. No team is pitching their whole relief corps day in and day out because no one is meant to pitch that often, injuries would become even more frequent and they would quickly become ineffective.

[Orgfiller]

Well one could argue that all 3 of the guys you mentioned are actually starting pitchers. And they are going multi-inning so it's at least more respectable.

 

Velocity is the best predictor of success for a pitcher and it's become easier for these guys to add velocity. So it's a bit of a troll that you can just scrounge up guys that have a 15 pitch gas tank but throw 99 mph, and you can expect to win ball games.

 

If they're multi-inning guys, it's still appreciably different in my eyes.

 

The A's tried to win a Wild Card game by running out guys like Hendricks, Kelley, Rodney because they throw harder than Fiers. It's just gross to me. Just put a machine out there and change the name of the game to, "Can you hit 99?". What the hell is the difference between all these relievers, they're completely homogenized. The guys you listed stand out though so they are more interesting to watch. I mean, Woodruff had to hit. It felt more like he was a part of the game.

 

I would love if there was like one less spot in the pen so every reliever had an increase in workload and as a result had to dial it back a notch. Instead of 99, they have to go 95 and come up with an actual 2nd pitch or fringe 3rd pitch. And sometimes they have to go 2 innings.

 

I really wouldn't mind seeing if Miley can s*** ball his way for as long as possible because there isn't a surplus of Reliever 3000's warming in the pen. Manager has way more decisions to make. GM has way more decisions to make in roster construction. I feel like nowadays it's just, "Well we can sign a couple s*** ballers to give us innings but when it really matters we'll have 8 guys in the pen who all throw 99 and make 500K so whatever."

 

"Oh ya and we have this guy Josh James in the minors, and if he only has to throw 10 f***ing pitches, he'll hit 100 and wipe these dudes off the planet."

 

How about no, he has throw 35-50 pitches instead.

I don't agree with wanting to have less talented players take the field. The fact that these guys can throw 99 and have enough command to succeed in the majors, which really isn't as common as you're making it out to be, is incredible and they absolutely deserve to be playing over guys that aren't as good but can go more innings.

 

The A's didn't go to Mike Fiers for the Wild Card game because he's pretty bad, whereas their elite relievers gave them a much better chance to win a game against a superior opponent. Their best starting pitcher was injured and outside Trevor Cahill who didn't even pitch that much the rest of their starters are awful. Did you really want to see the Yankees tee off for like 8 runs off of a bad Mike Fiers and have the game be over in 3 innings? How is that any fun or entertaining for the average baseball fan without a stake in that game?

 

I think you're vastly overestimating how common guys like Blake Treinen and Lou Trivino are around the league, and again even these guys can't pitch every day. Bullpen games have become a necessity because the starting pitching is s*** and doesn't give you a better chance to win important games, but nonetheless having guys who can pitch effectively for 5-7 innings is still of huge value. No one is taking Diego Castillo, Ryne Stanek and Jose Alvarado (who is excellent btw) over Blake Snell, the guy who can do at least 90% of what all of those combined can for the same amount of innings or more will be picked 11/10 by every front office.

[Abomination]

Ahhh, a broadcast with a radar gun!

[Orgfiller]

I think I see this in the opposite way. Whereas I would say the last 2 or 3 guys in a pen are less talented than a starting pitcher. They're just more talented over the course of 10-15 pitches.

 

And I think right now their impact on the game is disproportional to the amount of talent they actually have. Because there's barely any recourse to just spamming them game after game. Of course guys like Trivino and Treinen are clearly ahead of their peers.

 

I don't agree that the rest of the MLB bullpen types are more talented than even middling starting pitchers. I think just recycling high velo guys for league min salaries is a bit of a troll with regards to roster construction. It's rare to find a reliever that is consistently good year after year. A lot of these teams just bring in a ton of scrap heap guys and parse through them until they find a couple that can throw 15 pitches a night and I think that's kind of lame. The bar should be higher.

 

LOOGYs are the worst. And you could argue they're more talented than a middling SP because they get outs. But they only get outs because they're left handed and they have one good pitch.

 

I would just like to see this trend curtailed *slightly*. I think there's a big talent difference between a guy who can go two innings and a guy who can go one. And there's a chasm between a two inning guy and a LOOGY or ROOGY.

 

But my point is the elite guys who are spammed game after game are at least as valuable/talented as the starting pitchers (the mediocre ones), the others are just regular relievers who are there simply for matchups and they sometimes pitch in regular days following the starter anyways. I don't think the league will ever value a one batter/inning guy over a similarly talented multi-inning one, and certainly not if they can go for 5+ innings.

 

In the Oakland game, Hendriks was supposed to go 2 innings followed by Trivino for probably 2-3 more if he was effective, and after that it's basically as if a starter had gone the same distance. Those two combined on a regular day are definitely at least as talented as Mike Fiers, and individually they probably are as well, the latter holds some value in a long regular season but not a short and intense postseason.

 

I'd argue the league is moving away from putting pitchers in less favourable matchups, such as making a non-elite starter go through the lineup a third+ time, or starting them against the top part of the lineup. And I think this is an awesome strategy, and in no way is favouring your random fireballers who don't know where the ball is going or LOOGYs over capable starting pitcher. None of these scrap heaps guys are sticking around for very long, and they won't be replacing legitimate effective multi-inning guys.

 

I don't think any team is spamming guys who throw 99 for the sake of it for only an inning each. Guys like Josh James and Woodruff are only in the bullpen temporarily because they're not polished enough (arguably) to make high leverage postseason starts yet and can provide incredible value in short spurts. You'll likely see them in the rotation next year unless they become 3-4 inning elite guys which the analytics might value more.

[Abomination]

Did the announcers just say they were looking forward to debriefing each other in the car after the ball game? Surely I heard that wrong.

[Pendleton]

Did the announcers just say they were looking forward to debriefing each other in the car after the ball game? Surely I heard that wrong.

 

You prefer boxers?

[HealthDream007]

Awful hair style Manny.

[Brownie19]

That's an illegal slide...double play...didn't remain on the base....and her veered offline

[Captain Adama]

That looks illegal

[thatoneguy]

Machado proving himself to be a gutless puke once again.

[Brownie19]

Awful hair style Manny.

 

It suits him. Massive douche.

[HealthDream007]

Yeah, definitely an unnecessary slide. Don't see how that makes him gutless though.

[Brownie19]

Now that we've adjusted.....it's amazing to watch that s*** and realise that it not only used be allowed, but was taught and applauded!

[thatoneguy]

Yeah, definitely an unnecessary slide. Don't see how that makes him gutless though.