Billy Mckinney top comparables

[Carlos Danger]

You know who would of made a really good leadoff man?? Lyle Overbay. He wasn't appreciated at the time, but had all the skills, good eye, line drive power, good on base percentage, that would of made an ideal lead off hitter.

 

Didn't we try that for a few games?? I could swear we did for a while...

 

The issue I have is, so if he has a good OBP and he gets on, then you really need two more hits short of a HR to get him home. Yes, I think he led the league was near the top a few years for doubles, but if he is not hitting a double, or HR, you need a lot of s*** to go right to get him home. A guy like that will rarely hit a triple. So, gets on with a walk, base hit or much less times a double.

 

So you get him to third with less than two outs. There is a ball hit to mid right field or the SS position at double play depth. You would 100% send a guy like Revere in both cases, hope they don't make the perfect throw. You might have to hold a guy like Overbay... Overbay is rarely going 1st to 3rd or able to stay out of a double play with his speed.

 

So, % wise in the long run, do you score more runs just because a guy has more power if they have mas o menos the same OBP?

[Carlos Danger]

I think a lot of things could of been done better in the 90s. Cito did a great job but probably should of been fired after 91, and maybe been they could of brought Bobby Cox back. Devo was great, but yeah hitting him 6th or 7th would of suited his skills better. There was no need to get Henderson in 93. They should of just given Rob Butler a chance at lead off.

You can't complain about two world series wins, but no team is perfect and there were a few things that could of been done better.

 

I honestly can't tell if you are being serious here?

[Carlos Danger]

There's maybe 2 GMs in the league that would want a guy like Revere leading off these days. One of them is in Kansas City, at the bottom of the league is nearly every offensive category.

 

The other is Baltimore because literally every player not on their current roster who has played the game over the past 5 years is an upgrade on their dumpster fire of a current roster.

 

The slap hitting speedster (henceforth known as a slapster) with no power is an extinct model of a leadoff hitter. The slapster paradigm has been discarded by every GM in baseball except the aforementioned 2, neither of whom you want to model your lineup creation thought process after.

 

You mean Dayton Moore the GM of the 2015 WS Champions that beat us in 6 games in the ALCS, two of those games basically blowouts.. My point being, he is at the bottom of the league due to lack of current talent/ or money not philosophy.

 

So, now he forgot how to build a baseball team..? They didn't have their best hitter by far at lead off in 2015.. Going purely by stats, Reveres's number were better than Escobars. (Escobar somehow became ALCS MVP) but season stats wise Revere out performed him..

[Carlos Danger]

Originally Posted by Carlos Danger

 

Ok:

 

1. I want to suck Ben Revere's big coloured cock!

 

^ that is all I could gather from your post

 

You spelled colored wrong.

[Spanky__99]

You spelled colored wrong.

 

In Canada, it's spelled colour.

[jaysblue]

Catalanatto with the bat.

[Carlos Danger]

2 straight ALCS appearances is great success. We had the best run differential in 2015. If you are so proud of your work in the private sector you must also understand the need to have proper metrics to evaluate success. You can't guarantee a world series win or even an appearance. This isn't the NBA. We need to use other metrics to evaluate baseball teams than number of championships. And there are a number of well established metrics that point to the 2015 Jays as being the best team in baseball. They were objectively very successful. The fact of the matter is, we WON more than just 2 other teams, 2 years in a row.

Agree 100% We had the best run differential of anyone in 2015 and we had that prior to the trade deadline. Where were we at the trade deadline, a team floating around or 2 games under 500 if I recall.

 

We should have been winning much more with the run differential, but we were not. AA knew this, so he made our D much better for one, Tulo and Revere and obviously went out and got the best pitching he could. However, Price was only going to pitch every fifth day and the guy from Seattle

 

He also knew that a run differential stat can be because you have a bunch of wins where you blow teams out and score 8-10 runs, but when you look at the standings, you are still a 500 team because you are losing a lot of 1 run games and games in general. Some of that has to do with the pen but, from the words of the mighty AA himself about our vaunted 2015 offense, talking about Ben Revere.

 

“He’s someone that brings an element to our lineup that we don’t have,” Anthopoulos says, referring to Revere’s speed. “Just having that pest . . . who can put pressure on the defense, steal a base when everybody in the park knows he’s going, it’s just a completely new element for our offence.”

 

Yes, we had success and it was great.. I am old enough to have grown up expecting success every year with the Jays when I was a kid/teenager.

 

However, after we beat Texas and Baltimore the one game, we had our ass handed to us in the ALCS.. In 2015, it was Dickey, the pen to some degree, but we got flat shut out, ZERO runs game 1 to set the tone. In the 2016 ALCS we couldn't score with a Brad Pitt Doppelganger at a Thai whorehouse.

 

Again, all I am saying is we needed, and need a balanced attack that did not always rely so much on the sluggers and Revere added an element to that in the 2015 season.

[Boxcar]

Ah, all this time I thought the 2015 Blue Jays were just a really good team but no! Ben Revere was the reason we made the playoffs. Very enlightening.

[Olerud363]

Ah, all this time I thought the 2015 Blue Jays were just a really good team but no! Ben Revere was the reason we made the playoffs. Very enlightening.

 

When I try to answer these questions, I often look for a few teams that disprove the rule. So I glanced through the World Series winners of the last 20 years, and took a look at a few. Most really good teams have a Roberto Alomar/Derek Jeter type who hits leadoff. However Arizona (2001) didn't have a true lead off hitter. Only Tony Womack, who had a .307 on base percentage and they wouldn't of possibly... they wouldn't of... they had a tonne of other decent hitters, like Mark Grace, who could of hit high in the order...

 

But of course https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI200111040.shtml

 

So I guess Carlos Danger is right. All championship teams have a speedy dude who helps them to glory from the leadoff spot. From Ben Revere to Tony Womack, that's just the way you win.

[BillSupra]

Ben Revere would have been best served as a 9 hitter.... After the first inning he could be your precious guy with speed on in front of the bigger bats, but not getting more ABs than our actual best hitters.

[Spanky__99]

Ben Revere would have been best served as a 9 hitter.... After the first inning he could be your precious guy with speed on in front of the bigger bats, but not getting more ABs than our actual best hitters.

 

Yes.

[KevinGregg]

All this talk about speed getting you runs, and slow guys clogging the bases has also been quantified. Ben Revere had the 4th most base-running runs in the league in 2015. He was worth 7.8 runs on the bases. The best player in the league was Billy Hamilton for 13.3 runs.

That's almost a win worth of production from Revere's Baserunning, but for some context Bryce Harper's bat was the best in the league that year and it was worth 77 runs. Josh Donaldson's bat was worth 48 runs for us. Ben Revere was a valuable player and no doubt a good acquisition, but he didn't put the team over the top or anything. Those few extra runs from Revere's base running were just a drop in the bucket

[Carlos Danger]

Ah, all this time I thought the 2015 Blue Jays were just a really good team but no! Ben Revere was the reason we made the playoffs. Very enlightening.

 

Fake News.

 

I never said Ben Revere was THE reason. I clearly stated that even with a huge run differential at the trade deadline we were a 500 or below team... WHY???? We had super duper HUGE boner run differential, how could that be???

 

1. Because our defense needed tightening!! Reyes, a platoon of Valencia and Calabello or whomever we were putting out there in LF were costing us a lot of runs.

2. We still needed another starter and Dickey sucked.

3. Our pen needed help

4. We lost a number of close/low scoring games. We were not winning a lot of games where we were not scoring something like 5 or 6 plus runs.

 

Revere helped significantly with the D in LF. As AA stated, he gave us an element that the offence did not have..

 

The ABOVE has been my whole point since we started this debate. The offence to a degree in 2015, more so in 2016 had trouble scoring runs when we were not hitting the long ball or being able to manufacture a run.

 

Revere was a part, only a part (Obviously Tulo and Price were the keys) of our emergence from a very good team playing 500 ball to a division winner and an ACLS participant, but he added an element we did not have and was useful.

[Spanky__99]

[Carlos Danger]

Ben Revere would have been best served as a 9 hitter.... After the first inning he could be your precious guy with speed on in front of the bigger bats, but not getting more ABs than our actual best hitters.

 

I have no problem with this on the 93 Jays team.. But who on the 2015 Jays should have been batting lead off? Wasn't Travis hurt half the time..?

 

It was not Carlos Danger is my name, who decided to bat him lead-off.. It was John Gibbons and I am pretty sure AA. If AA wanted just a great D guy to bolster our problems in LF he could have got many other better defenders I would suppose.

 

Many guys on here are on another thread slobbing Gibbons knob saying how great he is and he shouldn't leave. Yet on that Juggernaut 2015 team, Revere was batting lead-off.. So both Gibbons and AA were f***ed up and didn't know you HAVE to put one of your three best hitters in the lead-off spot?

 

I don't get it.. AA and Gibbons are God's but they didn't know what they were doing when they put Revere at lead-off??

[John_Havok]

All this talk about speed getting you runs, and slow guys clogging the bases has also been quantified. Ben Revere had the 4th most base-running runs in the league in 2015. He was worth 7.8 runs on the bases. The best player in the league was Billy Hamilton for 13.3 runs.

That's almost a win worth of production from Revere's Baserunning, but for some context Bryce Harper's bat was the best in the league that year and it was worth 77 runs. Josh Donaldson's bat was worth 48 runs for us. Ben Revere was a valuable player and no doubt a good acquisition, but he didn't put the team over the top or anything. Those few extra runs from Revere's base running were just a drop in the bucket

 

#1, 7.8 runs was his entire season worth of baserunning, not just the 2 months he was with Toronto. So, even if you assume he was equally valuable with baserunning in all months, he would have been worth 1.34 runs with his legs for TO over 2 months.

 

Dynamite.

[Spanky__99]

#1, 7.8 runs was his entire season worth of baserunning, not just the 2 months he was with Toronto. So, even if you assume he was equally valuable with baserunning in all months, he would have been worth 1.34 runs with his legs for TO over 2 months.

 

Dynamite.

 

Smart

[tercet]

I'm sorry for saying McKinney might hit close to Reed Johnson, I don't know what crack I was on when I thought that.

[metafour]

I'm sorry for saying McKinney might hit close to Reed Johnson, I don't know what crack I was on when I thought that.

 

Yeah, he went on a week long slump, so obviously your comparison is spot on. No MLB player ever fits in slumps.

[tercet]

Bit more then a week...

[Krylian]

*than

[wilko]

Sweet numbers for September: .194/.219/.306/.252

[Spanky__99]

Sweet numbers for September: .194/.219/.306/.252

 

68 AB's, really buddy?

[Olerud363]

Sweet numbers for September: .194/.219/.306/.252

 

It appears he is "miraging" (ie as in Teoscar the mirage Hernandez).

 

After reading all the insightful and well written comments in this thread, thinking of it very deeply, and running my proprietary data analysis on every single player in MLB history, I have come to the following conclusion.... (drum roll)

 

The top comparable for Billy Mckinney is... Teoscar Hernandez.

 

Now that that's decided, next question, can the two of them form an acceptable platoon?

[tercet]

Mckinney is not comparable to the mirage in anyway what soever, don't insult the mirage.

[Olerud363]

Mckinney is not comparable to the mirage in anyway what soever, don't insult the mirage.

 

I'm half joking, but they are comparable

 

Minors

 

Mckinney .269 .348 .429 .778

Teoscar .269 .339 .455 .794

 

Majors

Mckinney .252 .318 .462 .780

Teoscar .241 .303 .479 .782

 

1. They have almost the same milb OPS. Mckinney makes more contact, better bb/k, Teoscar has more power, but they are similar

2. They have almost the same mlb OPS.

3. Neither is that fast.

4. They are both outfielders, and both are left fielders from what I've seen. Teoscar may not be good enough to be an MLB outfielder.

5. They both play for the Blue Jays.

6. They are both in their mid 20s, though Teoscar is 20 months older.

 

How could they not be similar?? There are differences, there are probably other players who are more similar, but they are similar in skill set and value.

[Olerud363]

I'm half joking, but they are comparable

 

Minors

 

Mckinney .269 .348 .429 .778

Teoscar .269 .339 .455 .794

 

Majors

Mckinney .252 .318 .462 .780

Teoscar .241 .303 .479 .782

 

1. They have almost the same milb OPS. Mckinney makes more contact, better bb/k, Teoscar has more power, but they are similar

2. They have almost the same mlb OPS.

3. Neither is that fast.

4. They are both outfielders, and both are left fielders from what I've seen. Teoscar may not be good enough to be an MLB outfielder.

5. They both play for the Blue Jays.

6. They are both in their mid 20s, though Teoscar is 20 months older.

 

How could they not be similar?? There are differences, there are probably other players who are more similar, but they are similar in skill set and value.

 

Oh wait. I'm just stats scouting players I've never seen in real life... not quite true I saw Teoscar 4 times this year... never seen Mckinney, but it's hard to scout from the upper deck.

 

I take that back, despite being the same position, apr. same age, very close batting stats, they are nothing alike. Completely different players when you scout them.

 

Which one is better according to scouting?? Which one will excel and which one will fail?? How will there careers end up different according to how their "scouting reports" will translate into performance?

[John_Havok]

Mckinney 118 wrc+

Teoscar 108 wrc+

[Olerud363]

Mckinney 118 wrc+

Teoscar 108 wrc+

 

Are those minor league stats?? Fangraphs has their mlb (career) ops+ at 112 for Mckinney, and 109 for Teoscar.

[Captain Adama]

Are those minor league stats?? Fangraphs has their mlb (career) ops+ at 112 for Mckinney, and 109 for Teoscar.

 

No, they're major league stats, wrc+ is much better than ops+