Kenta Maeda

[DuckDuckGose]

Lol..... I know your right but lets me honest here..... your not a physical person.

 

How can anyone dislike Brendan Shanahan? Is this real life?

[burlingtonbandit]

Crazy the NHL contract got over $500 Million. I always wonder how much the Blue Jays would get if it was an open bid.

 

200-300 Million on a 10+year deal?

[DuckDuckGose]

Crazy the NHL contract got over $500 Million. I always wonder how much the Blue Jays would get if it was an open bid.

 

200-300 Million on a 10+year deal?

 

Texas got $3.1B on a 20 yr deal. IMO that's what the Jays would be using as a comparable.

[DuckDuckGose]

MikeM, you seem to be assuming that NJH and others only trust Shapiro because Rogers tells them to. Which isn't true. People are coming to their own independent conclusions about Shapiro's competency. Shapiro is in charge now and that's something to get excited about.

 

Why is having Shapiro in charge more exciting than Beeston and AA? Anthopolous was easily the most exciting executive in baseball.

[burlingtonbandit]

Isn't it SN that does the hiring for the on air personalities? Whoever it is (Scott Moore?) should leave it to someone else. Thankfully they got Shulman on board but most of them are awful. Glen Healy, PJ Stock, Doug Maclean, Kyprios, John Shannon, Damien Cox, Buck and Pat, Barry Davis, Hazel Mae, Kevin Barker... like a 10 year old kid could do better.

 

Only SN on-air people I like are Eliotte Friedman, Mike Johnson, Tim & Sid and Shulman (now).

[burlingtonbandit]

Texas got $3.1B on a 20 yr deal. IMO that's what the Jays would be using as a comparable.

 

Should be much higher than that. That was back in 2010 and TV contracts have gone up in value by a lot since then.

 

he Rangers also set a record in 2012 for the highest rated month ever on FOX Sports Southwest in April with a 7.5 average. The month included a 10.0 rating on April 24 (No. 2 all-time) and a 9.7 on April 25 (No. 3 all-time) versus the New York Yankees.

For the season, an average of 151,200 homes tuned in to watch Rangers games on FOX Sports Southwest.

 

I know US-CAN TV ratings are a different comparison since they use households and ads are worth more up there but the Jays just averaged close to a Million fans per game this past season. Thats more than double what the Rangers got if you figure there are 3 people in a household.

[Sammy225]

Why is having Shapiro in charge more exciting than Beeston and AA? Anthopolous was easily the most exciting executive in baseball.

 

Because he would f***ed up the future of the Jays on more then 1 occasion.

[Laika]

I think... Shapiro is a minor upgrade on Beeston.

 

lol ok

 

I feel no compulsion to respond anymore aside from stating matter of factly that this quoted opinion is stupid.

[Laika]

They overpaid to begin with. And although Strombo to Maclean was the most egregious error in terms of the broadcasting portion. There were a ton more there. They basically had access to everyone at CBC and they somehow ended up with Stock, Kypreos and Doug Maclean. They didn't even keep the old guy that did all those unbelievable opening montages. They got another guy. For no reason.

 

You could argue maybe they had no choice but to do whatever it took to get the NHL rights but they overpaid and the ratings are down right off the bat. They bought pretty much as high as possible on rights for a sport that is probably declining or at least not growing as quickly as it once did (due to demographics which are staring you in the face every day). And you know they recognize this because this is the reason they went to Strombo.

 

Meanwhile, how much money did they cost themselves by underestimating the baseball market? They were content letting a guy still living in the '80s run this team. Probably costing us millions a year just by ignoring simple things like dynamic ticket pricing. But then you find out when this team is actually competitive the TV ratings in Canada are like broadcasting the Superbowl day after day. Rogers has owned the Blue Jays for what? 15 years? Top 10 in payroll once or twice? They bought the SkyDome for pennies. It was a layup. And they had this cash cow sitting dormant for 15 years.

 

At some point it might have made sense to defer to Rogers because they were smart and made it to the top on their own merit. Maybe that time came and went with the passing of Ted who left the team to his idiot offspring (which idiot wanted to trade Hoffman for Duquette? Ed was it?). Maybe they're not at the top because of their merits anymore but moreso because they're at the top of a corrupt industry that doesn't have any competition.

 

But even if you don't agree with anything I'm saying, there are still results that you can look at. And this team hasn't had results under Rogers for the entirety of their ownership. So at some point they are culpable.

 

I can't really argue with most of this. I don't know enough to wade into the conversation and most of what you explain sounds reasonable. We're talking about economics, and business, and big money, and strategic decision making - all of these things are areas of ignorance (and non-interest) for me, which is why I defer to others.

 

My personal opinion on the NHL is that product has gone down the tubes recently.

[Laika]

Shapiro is a f***ing god send. It was one of the luckiest strokes in franchise history. We only ended up with Shapiro after Ed and his buddy tampered with Kenny Williams. Ed Rogers literally called one of Beeston's friends, Reinsdorf, to ask about Williams, who they already tampered with, not knowing that Beeston would find out immediately about the whole thing. And they lied to Reinsdorf by saying Beeston knew what was happening. Then they tried to trade prospects for f***ing Dan Duquette.

 

I'm sorry but I just can't trust Rogers in any capacity until they show me something. They lucked into Shapiro. But Shapiro has shown me something. I liked Alex but Shapiro is not an idiot. I'm thankful everyday that he's here.

 

If one thing is clear it's that Ed Rogers is a bumbling idiot

[DuckDuckGose]

Because he's more competent? That's what I care about as a fan.

 

Well if you were a fan the team on the field should be what you care about most. If Shapiro's past moves are any indication we can expect a less exciting team in the near future.

 

Also, I don't know what you mean by Anthopolous being the most exciting executive.

 

Surely, you know what excitement is.

 

He makes a big move every 12 months?

 

Ya exactly.

 

That doesn't make him exciting.

 

Yes it does.

 

And other executives make moves that are just as big.

 

Most GM's will spend their entire tenure without making a move as big as any of the Halladay, Tulo, JD or Miami trades. Some may never sign as big a FA as Russel Martin. I don't know what you are basing that on but during his time in Toronto AA definitely made more big moves than anyone else.

 

They'd make less than with Rogers showing the games themselves. Cut out the middleman.

 

What are you basing that on? Rogers woefully under-compensates the Jays for their content. The Jays are the middleman Rogers uses to obfuscate tax law.

[DuckDuckGose]

lol ok

 

I feel no compulsion to respond anymore aside from stating matter of factly that this quoted opinion is stupid.

 

I'm not touting Beeston as a brilliant abseball mind but he was a good president and quite competent at his role. Ultimately, he served his purpose of ushering in a new era and it was time to move on. It's not like he hindered the Jays in any way. It was always what do you need and then how can he help and then he got it done. Which is exactly what the club needed from him.

[DuckDuckGose]

If one thing is clear it's that Ed Rogers is a bumbling idiot

 

Hey, we agreed on something!

[Sammy225]

Most GM's will spend their entire tenure without making a move as big as any of the Halladay, Tulo, JD or Miami trades. Some may never sign as big a FA as Russel Martin. I don't know what you are basing that on but during his time in Toronto AA definitely made more big moves than anyone else.

 

So basically you the Quantity of moves over quality. Because Dave Stewart showed any half brain GM can make a lot of moves.... Doesn't mean they are any good.

 

This team would be way better off today if he had not made the 2 worst deals in a long time in The Miami deal and The NYM deal. Believe it or not the best move sometimes is not making one.

 

I would rather have a GM/President that knows the value of a Synder/TDA (which i guarantee you Shapiro knows) then a guy that would trade anything for a 40 year old pitcher.

[Thomas Malthus]

The exact dollar amount doesn't matter. The Leafs FO team is by far and away the most expensive and quite possibly the most talented in the NHL. The Jays' team is somewhere in the middle of the pack. We know enough to assert both of those points. When you're talking FO teams it's not necessarily about compensation; it's about competency vs the FO teams of the competition. Good executives give you an advantage, spending more gives you an advantage to sign better executives/staff; the Jays do a good job of this in terms of scouting, training and development they can do more at the upper levels (and I imagine they will eventually like the Raptors and Leafs have).

 

 

 

it's far more than hype, they're doing a great job so far. The biggest challenge will be sticking to the long term plan when they start having success and the only way we can't judge that yet.

 

Couldn't this also be said of Shapiro and Atkins? They have a long term plan to build an continuously competitive team and that plan will be tested if/when this team wins - they should avoid going full Alex and stick to the plan.

 

No more so than Anthopoulos or Beeston. I don't think Shapiro will be bad; I imagine he'll be pretty good but he's done nothing to make me believe he is on the level of someone like Theo Epstein or Stan Kasten.

 

"I don't think Shanahan will be bad; I imagine he'll be pretty good but he's done nothing to make me believe he is on the level of someone like Stan Bowman or Ken Holland."

 

I'm a Leafs fan and I'm optimistic about the future of the team because of the Shanaplan based around Nylander, Marner and Rielly alongside Babcock but Shanahan was no Shapiro coming in.

[DuckDuckGose]

Shapiro is a f***ing god send.

 

What are you basing that on? All he's done is let Price walk (rightfully so), traded Hendriks for Chavez (meh move) and signed Atkins, Happ, and Estrada (which all look like pretty good signings). Most of those moves were probably LaCava anyways and at this point I'm pretty confident the team would look very similar with Beeston, LaCava and AA at the helm.

[KingKat]

What are you basing that on?

 

Probably on more that what he's done since joining the Jays.

[DuckDuckGose]

So basically you the Quantity of moves over quality. Because Dave Stewart showed any half brain GM can make a lot of moves.... Doesn't mean they are any good.

 

When it comes to excitement absolutely. A bad move is still more exciting than the status quo that's human nature.

 

This team would be way better off today if he had not made the 2 worst deals in a long time in The Miami deal and The NYM deal.

 

No doubt about that, The JD and Tulo trade made up for it though.

 

Believe it or not the best move sometimes is not making one.

 

That David Price contract is a prime example.

 

I would rather have a GM/President that knows the value of a Synder/TDA (which i guarantee you Shapiro knows) then a guy that would trade anything for a 40 year old pitcher.

 

Completely agreed but that was also years ago an early on in AA's tenure. IMO one of AA's best qualities was that he learned from his mistakes and improved year-over-year. I feel that we took on all of the pain of grooming AA only to let him walk when he was hitting his stride. AA was a bad GM in '09 but he was an entirely different executive by the end of this season.

[DuckDuckGose]

Couldn't this also be said of Shapiro and Atkins? They have a long term plan to build an continuously competitive team and that plan will be tested if/when this team wins - they should avoid going full Alex and stick to the plan.

 

Sure but why did the plan change? IMO Rogers was a large part of that and the same pressure will exist under Shapiro. When Cleveland pressured Shapiro to contend he signed Swisher and Bourn... Again, I think Shapiro will be good but he's not infallible or a god send. He's a decent president with a difficult ownership group.

 

"I don't think Shanahan will be bad; I imagine he'll be pretty good but he's done nothing to make me believe he is on the level of someone like Stan Bowman or Ken Holland."

 

Certainly, not on Holland's or Bowman's level. That being said Lou is a hockey legend. Dubas is one of the brightest young hockey minds on the planet and Babcock is an elite coach. Shanahan needed to surround himself with people like that he recognized it and made it happen. I love that.

 

I'm a Leafs fan and I'm optimistic about the future of the team because of the Shanaplan based around Nylander, Marner and Rielly alongside Babcock but Shanahan was no Shapiro coming in.

 

The best thing Shanahan did was bring in guys like Shapiro (Dubas, lots of success with a minor league team, heeeyooo Cleveland!) to help him out. That's why I love him he doesn't pretend to have all the answers but knows he has the resources to figure it out.

[DuckDuckGose]

Probably on more that what he's done since joining the Jays.

 

And what in his past history makes him a god-send? I'm honestly curious and would love to be enlightened.

[DuckDuckGose]

Did you see the alternatives to Shapiro? It was like we were playing russian roulette and there were 5 bullets in the gun.

 

I didn't see alternatives and we have Ed Rogers to thank for that. Worked out pretty well in the end. Only real negative was that AA walked when he should've been the workhorse for the new president's vision.

[KingKat]

I would love to be enlightened.

 

I don't believe you.

[BTS]

What are you basing that on? All he's done is let Price walk (rightfully so), traded Hendriks for Chavez (meh move) and signed Atkins, Happ, and Estrada (which all look like pretty good signings). Most of those moves were probably LaCava anyways and at this point I'm pretty confident the team would look very similar with Beeston, LaCava and AA at the helm.

 

Uh... His excellent track record in Cleveland.

[Thomas Malthus]

Sure but why did the plan change? IMO Rogers was a large part of that and the same pressure will exist under Shapiro. When Cleveland pressured Shapiro to contend he signed Swisher and Bourn... Again, I think Shapiro will be good but he's not infallible or a god send. He's a decent president with a difficult ownership group.

 

Certainly, not on Holland's or Bowman's level. That being said Lou is a hockey legend. Dubas is one of the brightest young hockey minds on the planet and Babcock is an elite coach. Shanahan needed to surround himself with people like that he recognized it and made it happen. I love that.

 

The best thing Shanahan did was bring in guys like Shapiro (Dubas, lots of success with a minor league team, heeeyooo Cleveland!) to help him out. That's why I love him he doesn't pretend to have all the answers but knows he has the resources to figure it out.

 

The moves that Shanahan made were months or at least a year after being hired. You're making these assessments of Shanahan with the benefit of hindsight, let's wait a year or at least an offseason and see what Shapiro does, yeah? Let's not forget that Shanahan first kept Nonis and Carlyle on for one more season before turfing them and allowed Nonis to make moves like signing Robidas. Nonis was not a good GM and yet he still made a good trade in Clarkson for Horton (cleaning up after himself as it were) and that's sort of how I think many people here see AA (not AS bad as Nonis but thematically the same and underutilizing analytics).

[DuckDuckGose]

Without the Dickey and Marlins trades, this franchise would be overflowing with cheap, productive talent.

 

d'Arnaud, Synder, Alvarez, Hech, deScalafini, Nicolino. All of whom AA added to the franchise -- so lambast him for teh deals but understand they wouldn't have happened if AA wasn't so good at building a system to begin with.

 

It wouldn't be Cubs-level but it'd be close

.

 

Well the 2016 Jays should be as good as the Cubs and with prudent management they should both be contenders for the foreseeable future.

 

You're using very flawed narratives to tell the story of the Blue Jays over the past six seasons. There is no evidence of AA improving any more than there is of any other GM improving.

 

..... I think you're delusional if you don't think AA improved leaps and bounds over his time in Toronto. That's what you would expect from a young GM though.

 

You're entirely basing that off the fact that the 2015 team is the one that won.

 

I'm looking at overall trends from '09 - '15, I suggest you do the same.

 

This is all so pointless.

 

Yup, because you came in with bias and refuse to see past it.

 

Please just accept NJH's and MikeM's perspective on why this new front office is refreshing.

 

I'll do you one better. I'll listen with an open mind and formulate my own opinions.

 

It's the truth. You're peddling opinions and half-truths.

 

I'm having a conversation which by definition has to have two streams of input. I understand that you don't have much to contribute outside of rehashing other's views and opinions but that doesn't mean the rest of us are incapable.

[DuckDuckGose]

GODSEND. : a desirable or needed thing or event that comes unexpectedly.

 

When you have Rogers so determined to hire Kenny Williams or Dan Duquette that they are tampering and trying to trade prospects and then you end up with Mark Shapiro somehow, it is a godsend.

 

I agree Shapiro > Duquette and Williams but I also don't think either were ever actually coming to Toronto.

 

And if I'm not being quite so literal, Shapiro is a two-time executive of the year and has a strong track record of producing cost-controlled talent and then signing them to great contracts

.

 

Can't you say this exact same thing about AA? Maybe only one executive of the year.

 

Remember we somehow gave them Yan Gomes for Esmil Rogers. And then Gomes was signed to a great deal.

 

Ya but that was because of that f***er John Farrell. AA was up against a barrel and made a bad trade. It happens and it was very opportunistic of CLE to take advantage of the situation. Good on them.

 

He traded Colon for Lee, Sizemore and Phillips.

Broussard for Choo.

Sabathia for 4 players including Brantley.

He got Hafner and Cabrera for relatively little.

Casey Blake for Carlos Santana.

Traded Lee for 4 players including Carrasco. Signed Carrasco to best contract in the league.

 

Most of those moves came out of necessity because they couldn't afford to resign the players. When you're selling stars in their prime for prospects every year you're going to end up with a lot of good young players. Again, good on Shapiro for going this route and being opportunistic. He had to do that in CLE and he recognized that. Let's also remember that Edwin and Jose are coming off the best contracts in MLB thanks to AA.

 

He has acumen. And the good thing with our team is that we already have tons of talent on the roster. We don't need someone to unearth talented players. We need someone to not drive the ship into an iceberg.

 

I don't think an iceberg was coming. I think AA was going to build the farm back up and be right back at it but given the past trades I understand the opinion.

[DuckDuckGose]

Uh... His above average track record in Cleveland.

 

ftfy

[KingKat]

What do you mean? Shapiro traded like 2 months of Blake for Santana. Or am I crazy?

 

Yeah sorry about that. I deleted my reply. I got confused because you switched the sequence around when you started talking about "got Hafner" and then the next line after that is the one about Blake. I'm a bit lumpen-headed and easily confused by these sorts of things.

 

He traded Colon for Lee, Sizemore and Phillips.

Broussard for Choo.

Sabathia for 4 players including Brantley.

He got Hafner and Cabrera for relatively little.

Casey Blake for Carlos Santana.

Traded Lee for 4 players including Carrasco. Signed Carrasco to best contract in the league.

[Sammy225]

Uh... His excellent track record in Cleveland.

 

This is what i am saying. The guy builds an excellent rotation without giving up anything or spending a boatload of money and people are hating on him.... Makes loads of f***ing sense

[DuckDuckGose]

The moves that Shanahan made were months or at least a year after being hired. You're making these assessments of Shanahan with the benefit of hindsight, let's wait a year or at least an offseason and see what Shapiro does, yeah? Let's not forget that Shanahan first kept Nonis and Carlyle on for one more season before turfing them and allowed Nonis to make moves like signing Robidas. Nonis was not a good GM and yet he still made a good trade in Clarkson for Horton (cleaning up after himself as it were) and that's sort of how I think many people here see AA (not AS bad as Nonis but thematically the same and underutilizing analytics).

 

I'm really not being hard on Shapiro at all. I just don't think he's done anything to make me believe he's heads above Beeston/AA or that things will be much different under his command. I know the off-season is young and believe he will add at least one more piece. I believe Maeda should be the prime target. I'll be disappointed if he stands pat but, I fully agree with whoever posted earlier (Sammy?) that sometimes the best move is to not pull the trigger. Avoid bad deals and keep pushing the franchise forward and I'll be quite content.