Wilner vs Pillar Twitter battle

[TDotttt2005]

I don't love Wilner but I don't agree with that characterisation. Wilner is not the smartest, most current baseball thinker by any stretch but he does have certain core beliefs, essentially the ones laid out in Moneyball, OBP is better than AVG, OPS is a good measure of offensive value. While a lot of the baseball world uses wOBA or wRC+ for offensive value now and quotes WAR as a measure of total value, Wilner hasn't really embraced these concepts. OBP and OPS have been his go to stats for years and while it's true that he is a homer and will put a positive spin on certain things, it's not really needed here. Gibbons putting Tulo in the leadoff spot aligns perfectly with what Wilner has been trumpeting for at least a decade.

 

Agreed. In general, Wilner does and has espoused OBP, and regularly trumpets players 'not getting out', so in general I believe all what you've said is true. I think the characterization here is that at certain times, his love for all things Gibby and his homerism takes over, and he'll adapt/spin his core beliefs to whatever he must to defend and give praise to whatever 'controversial' move Gibby has made. I think if you asked Wilner the morning of the Tulo trade, before he knew Gibbons was hitting him Leadoff, he wouldn't have held such a strong position on it. Fast Forward a few hours, lineup card comes out, Gibbons has Tulo in the leadoff spot, and you had Wilner out there using the word 'genius'.

[dineke]

Agreed. In general, Wilner does and has espoused OBP, and regularly trumpets players 'not getting out', so in general I believe all what you've said is true. I think the characterization here is that at certain times, his love for all things Gibby and his homerism takes over, and he'll adapt/spin his core beliefs to whatever he must to defend and give praise to whatever 'controversial' move Gibby has made. I think if you asked Wilner the morning of the Tulo trade, before he knew Gibbons was hitting him Leadoff, he wouldn't have held such a strong position on it. Fast Forward a few hours, lineup card comes out, Gibbons has Tulo in the leadoff spot, and you had Wilner out there using the word 'genius'.

 

Well his job is to basically be a homer. The one time he didn't and questioned Cito he got suspended by Rogers so I can't really blame him.

[Olerud363]

I would wager that just about every black man, or minority for that matter, faced racial adversity at some point in the 60's and 70's. It was unavoidable. The "pulled it out of your ass" reference was with regards to the conclusions you drew from said racial experiences.

 

I was an avid fan 95-97 and a lot of weird things happened. Cito played Jacob Brumfield for Olerud against righties, He played Ruben Sierra instead of Green. There was controversy about it.

 

Cito thought other people were racists and it may have affected his decisions. He thought the media was racist, he thought the game was racist... In Cito's mind Jacob Brumfield was a great player who was never given a chance, Sierra was being driven out of the game early.

 

It wasn't just black guys... He hit Kevin Millar clean up. I believe he even hit a washed up Pat Tabler clean up. His decisions weren't random. Cito had this idea that certain guys had paid their dues and earned playing time... justified or not.

 

It wasn't always a disaster, he gave Marco Scutaro, Adam Lind and Jose Bautista full time gigs. That worked out pretty well.

[TDotttt2005]

Well his job is to basically be a homer. The one time he didn't and questioned Cito he got suspended by Rogers so I can't really blame him.

 

Thats fine if that his job, we all have to make a living, and no one with a family wants to risk losing their job. That said, don't pretend to be objective when you are clearly not.

[Flashman]

Well his job is to basically be a homer. The one time he didn't and questioned Cito he got suspended by Rogers so I can't really blame him.

 

He didn't question Cito - he tried to humiliate him.

 

It is easy enough to make Cito out to be a know-nothing without trying to force the issue in front of his face. The manager is not a politician who is accountable to the people - just the GM.

[KingKat]

He didn't question Cito - he tried to humiliate him.

 

It is easy enough to make Cito out to be a know-nothing without trying to force the issue in front of his face. The manager is not a politician who is accountable to the people - just the GM.

 

I guess you subscribe to the Hal McRae school of managing.

[Brownie19]

I don't think Cito liked how Olerud wore a helmet in the field. Check that - I don't think anyone did. Looked funny.

 

It's kind of ironic how Olerud had a better career than Delgado

[Mikeleelop]

I don't think Cito liked how Olerud wore a helmet in the field. Check that - I don't think anyone did. Looked funny.

 

It's kind of ironic how Olerud had a better career than Delgado

 

I thought your comment was wrong - then checked the career WAR on fangraphs. Olerud was 57.3 to Delgado's 44.2. That surprised me. Career wRC+ was 130 for olerud vs. 135 for Delgado. so a lot of olerud value came defensively (plus olerud played about 200 more games)

 

Thanks for that insight...

[KingKat]

I thought your comment was wrong - then checked the career WAR on fangraphs. Olerud was 57.3 to Delgado's 44.2. That surprised me. Career wRC+ was 130 for olerud vs. 135 for Delgado. so a lot of olerud value came defensively (plus olerud played about 200 more games)

 

Thanks for that insight...

 

I think there are issues around defensive WAR for 1B around that time period. Which isn't to say that Olerud's career isn't generally underated (it is) bus his WAR might be a bit inflated and the gap between him and Delgado is probably smaller.

[Brownie19]

I think there are issues around defensive WAR for 1B around that time period. Which isn't to say that Olerud's career isn't generally underated (it is) bus his WAR might be a bit inflated and the gap between him and Delgado is probably smaller.

 

Even if it is - Delgado is on the ring of excellence while Olerud was platooned, underappreciated and traded to the Mets for Robert f***ing Person....oh and the Jays paid $5M of Olerud's $6.5M contract. The best thing to come from it was trading Person to the Philly's for Paul Spoljaric...

 

Olerud goes on to put up 18.3 WAR in 3 seasons for the Mets.

 

It's pretty shocking when you look back at it...

[KingKat]

Even if it is - Delgado is on the ring of excellence while Olerud was platooned, underappreciated and traded to the Mets for Robert f***ing Person....oh and the Jays paid $5M of Olerud's $6.5M contract. The best thing to come from it was trading Person to the Philly's for Paul Spoljaric...

 

Olerud goes on to put up 18.3 WAR in 3 seasons for the Mets.

 

It's pretty shocking when you look back at it...

 

Oh no doubt. Some really terrible player evaluation and the crazy thing is that none of us fans knew any better. It's crazy the strides that have been made in player evaluations since then.

[Brownie19]

He didn't question Cito - he tried to humiliate him.

 

 

Is the audio or written comments from Wilner still available? What an interesting read it would be...

[Olerud363]

I think there are issues around defensive WAR for 1B around that time period. Which isn't to say that Olerud's career isn't generally underated (it is) bus his WAR might be a bit inflated and the gap between him and Delgado is probably smaller.

 

They were both first basemen... do you think the issue in WAR effected the difference between them? Just curious.

[Olerud363]

Oh no doubt. Some really terrible player evaluation and the crazy thing is that none of us fans knew any better. It's crazy the strides that have been made in player evaluations since then.

 

Did you follow the Jays closely those years?? In general people knew how valuable Olerud was... there was a lot of controversey. Gaston tried to change his swing, make him more aggressive, and pull the ball. I think it hurt his numbers a bit. I think the platooning hit his confidence.

[Nafro]

I don't think Cito liked how Olerud wore a helmet in the field. Check that - I don't think anyone did. Looked funny.

 

It's kind of ironic how Olerud had a better career than Delgado

 

I don't buy that Cito didn't like him because he wore a helmet in the field. The dude had a f***ing aneurysm in College. He promised his mother that if he kept playing baseball,he would wear that in the field. Anyone who hated that is a complete f***tard.

 

On a lighter side about the helmet. Later in his career when him and Ricky Henderson were playing together they had the following conversation...

 

RH: "You wear a helmet in the field eh...

 

JO: "Yes I do"

 

RH: "I played with a guy in Toronto that wore a helmet in the field."

 

JO: "Yes Ricky...that was me."

[BigCecil]

I don't think Cito liked how Olerud wore a helmet in the field. Check that - I don't think anyone did. Looked funny.

 

It's kind of ironic how Olerud had a better career than Delgado

 

It a bit shocking, with the knowledge of today on valuing players, to look back on Olerud's numbers and see just how good he was overall. I'm sure there are still some managers who would bench him to "get Carter's rbi bat in the line up" but thankfully they are fewer.

[BigCecil]

I don't buy that Cito didn't like him because he wore a helmet in the field. The dude had a f***ing aneurysm in College. He promised his mother that if he kept playing baseball,he would wear that in the field. Anyone who hated that is a complete f***tard.

 

On a lighter side about the helmet. Later in his career when him and Ricky Henderson were playing together they had the following conversation...

 

RH: "You wear a helmet in the field eh...

 

JO: "Yes I do"

 

RH: "I played with a guy in Toronto that wore a helmet in the field."

 

JO: "Yes Ricky...that was me."

 

Lol. There are some hilarious Henderson stories. Guy was on his own planet...mentally...and as a lead off hitter.

[KingKat]

They were both first basemen... do you think the issue in WAR effected the difference between them? Just curious.

 

From what I understand there was too much value placed on 1B defense so a good fielding one like Olerud would be overly rewarded and a negative one like Delgado overly punished.

[KingKat]

Did you follow the Jays closely those years?? In general people knew how valuable Olerud was... there was a lot of controversey. Gaston tried to change his swing, make him more aggressive, and pull the ball. I think it hurt his numbers a bit. I think the platooning hit his confidence.

 

I followed the Jays religiously back then. Every single game. I thought Olerud was great in 1993 but I also sided with those who thought Molitor was better and I was disappointed (stupidly) with everything Olerud did as a Jay after 1993.

[dineke]

How come Olerud is not talked about as much as others on those 92/93 teams? Even going by traditional stats he batted .363 in 1993! He should be in the level of excellence just for that.

[polar bear]

I don't think Cito liked how Olerud wore a helmet in the field. Check that - I don't think anyone did. Looked funny.

 

It's kind of ironic how Olerud had a better career than Delgado

 

No irony at all,

[polar bear]

I don't think Cito liked how Olerud wore a helmet in the field. Check that - I don't think anyone did. Looked funny.

 

It's kind of ironic how Olerud had a better career than Delgado

 

No irony at all,big John was simply the better player.best all-round first baseman we ever had.

[o2cui2i]

this thread should have died a much quicker death. the story was over 10 seconds after it happened.

[Brownie19]

I followed the Jays religiously back then. Every single game. I thought Olerud was great in 1993 but I also sided with those who thought Molitor was better and I was disappointed (stupidly) with everything Olerud did as a Jay after 1993.

 

Same here man

[Brownie19]

I don't buy that Cito didn't like him because he wore a helmet in the field. The dude had a f***ing aneurysm in College. He promised his mother that if he kept playing baseball,he would wear that in the field. Anyone who hated that is a complete f***tard.

"

 

Holy man...it was a joke. I was joking.

[Olerud363]

I think there are issues around defensive WAR for 1B around that time period. Which isn't to say that Olerud's career isn't generally underated (it is) bus his WAR might be a bit inflated and the gap between him and Delgado is probably smaller.

 

Makes sense. It doesn't seem that Olerud could make up that much on defense... up to 20 runs a year according to the stats.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

this thread should have died a much quicker death. the story was over 10 seconds after it happened.

 

Wait I agree with you and a Mod... Fade to black as the world ends!!! Lol

[Candy Maldonado]

Wait I agree with you and a Mod... Fade to black as the world ends!!! Lol

 

When are you going to go back in hiding?

[Flashman]

I guess you subscribe to the Hal McRae school of managing.

 

No.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

When are you going to go back in hiding?

 

Soon as you stop being a ******* loser!!! f*** you buddy!!! Who the hell do you think you are cyber tuff guy!!! Bite me!!!