WAR (of players involved in recent Jays trades)

[Smokey]

The Marlins and Mets deals actually worked out for us this year even if some people don't want to believe it.

 

The failure of the player development / scouting departments to recognize Gomes,s talent behind the dish isn't really on AA

 

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF--laughing-funny-LOL-haha-hehe-hilarious-fun-happy-laugh-Vladimir-Putin-GIF.gif

[KingKat]

The failure of the player development / scouting departments to recognize Gomes,s talent behind the dish isn't really on AA

 

Remember when AA came in and made all those new investments in scouting? Remember when the spin was that scouting was going to give the Jays an edge? Good times.

[Governator]

Remember when AA came in and made all those new investments in scouting? Remember when the spin was that scouting was going to give the Jays an edge? Good times.

 

You don't think they've drafted better since? Giving them away is another discussion.

[metafour]

No one, not even the Indians, knew what they were getting with Gomes. He's been exponentially better than expected in literally every aspect of his game...that s*** rarely happens. It sucks, but you just have to get over it. Gomes turning into a 4+ WAR player is an even bigger anomaly than Bautista turning into what he did in Toronto.

[burlingtonbandit]

Even with Gomes and Aviles on the bench with all that has gone on were needed pieces . The failure of the player development / scouting departments to recognize Gomes,s talent behind the dish isn't really on AA

 

I didn't like the trade at the time but it wasn't because of Gomes. People need to realize that there will be times when guys miss on players talents just like when Bautista came here to Toronto.

 

As for the Marlins and Mets deals Reyes, Dickey and Buehrle put up 10 WAR (using RA-9 for the pitchers) and not even accounting for the Dickey effect which probably added another win. The trade worked out this year and the problem was as some have said is giving PA to replacement players, not the guys brought in from the trades.

[BTS]

I didn't like the trade at the time but it wasn't because of Gomes. People need to realize that there will be times when guys miss on players talents just like when Bautista came here to Toronto.

 

As for the Marlins and Mets deals Reyes, Dickey and Buehrle put up 10 WAR (using RA-9 for the pitchers) and not even accounting for the Dickey effect which probably added another win. The trade worked out this year and the problem was as some have said is giving PA to replacement players, not the guys brought in from the trades.

 

It's all tied together though. To quote an idiot, baseball is hard. Punting the future to open up a 3-year window is a bad strategy because things tend not to go as planned. Make your goal perpetual contention, and eventually things will go right. Reyes, Dickey, and Buehrle have performed as expected and earned their contracts, but you can't give up a significant amount of assets just to land expensive veterans who will merely be worth their contracts. That's bad business long term. and if things don't break just right in the 1-2 year window you open up, it's catastrophic.

[GD]

To quote an idiot, baseball is hard.

 

lol

[Smokey]

The trade worked out this year and the problem was as some have said is giving PA to replacement players, not the guys brought in from the trades.

 

You're making yourself look real good trying to rationalize AA's incompetence! Keep it up!

[GD]

You're making yourself look real good trying to rationalize AA's incompetence! Keep it up!

 

He's arguing AA is incompetent in a different way than you're suggesting

[burlingtonbandit]

It's all tied together though. To quote an idiot, baseball is hard. Punting the future to open up a 3-year window is a bad strategy because things tend not to go as planned. Make your goal perpetual contention, and eventually things will go right. Reyes, Dickey, and Buehrle have performed as expected and earned their contracts, but you can't give up a significant amount of assets just to land expensive veterans who will merely be worth their contracts. That's bad business long term. and if things don't break just right in the 1-2 year window you open up, it's catastrophic.

 

I agree with the philosophical strategy you are saying but the trade has worked in favour of the Blue Jays for what they were trying to do. The problem is not having additional payroll flexibility to compliment the players you brought in. If you were going to make those trades having payroll topped out at 140 is not a good recipe for success.

 

You're making yourself look real good trying to rationalize AA's incompetence! Keep it up!

 

lol yeahhhh...

[TheHurl]

No one, not even the Indians, knew what they were getting with Gomes. He's been exponentially better than expected in literally every aspect of his game...that s*** rarely happens. It sucks, but you just have to get over it. Gomes turning into a 4+ WAR player is an even bigger anomaly than Bautista turning into what he did in Toronto.

 

they did know they weren't getting a utility infielder.

[glory]

This is silly. People should be evaluated by the sum of their work.

 

Let's say it was the other way around. Let's say some GM traded 100 million dollars worth of salary and then replaced some of the WAR with a different side where he got a 4 WAR player for nothing.

 

Would people say "well that other deal was just a side deal... so what!"?? No of course not. They would say the GM was brilliant for offloading 100 million dollar of salary and replacing some of the wins with a different smart deal.

 

This is the type of thing weasels like Paul Beeston say to retain the status quo.

 

This topic makes no sense. 1. Gomes wouldn't have even played in Toronto since they had Arencibia (ugh) and at the time d'Arnaud still on the roster, and 2. he wasn't directly involved in the big trades that shifted the direction of the team, yet he is being grouped with those players in your original post. In reality, he was involved in a minor deal where AA probably wanted to dump Aviles' salary, undervalued Gomes, and overvalued Rogers. So what was the point of including his WAR in the numbers, other than to fit your narrative?

 

The Jays missed the boat on Gomes. The Pirates and Reds missed the boat on Bautista and Edwin. It doesn't mean any of those things were expected or even reasonable to expect.

[KingKat]

No one, not even the Indians, knew what they were getting with Gomes. He's been exponentially better than expected in literally every aspect of his game...that s*** rarely happens.

 

That he was better than expected as a hitter is undeniable. That was clearly a gift from the gods for the Indians. That he was better than expected defensively is highly debatable though. Maybe he was better than the Blue Jays expected but there were reports at the time that the Indians wanted Gomes for his defense and that they felt he could stick as a major leaguer for that reason alone. They clearly saw something in him that justified giving him an opportunity that the Jays did not. The offense they got out of him was gravy.

[Smokey]

I agree with the philosophical strategy you are saying but the trade has worked in favour of the Blue Jays for what they were trying to do. The problem is not having additional payroll flexibility to compliment the players you brought in. If you were going to make those trades having payroll topped out at 140 is not a good recipe for success.

 

What were they "trying to do" exactly? Fail to make the post-season again? They overpaid for proven talent and tried to turn a 73 win team into WS contenders overnight and have failed miserably so far. Those trades were terrible at the time and look even worse now knowing how much it ended up tying their hands. But no, those trades worked out for us because WE GOTS 10 WARS out of 3 proven players. Whoopty f***ing doo.

[jaysblue]

Yeah can't you say the same thing about the Pirates and Cincy on how they both traded Bautista and EE respectively?

[BTS]

Yeah can't you say the same thing about the Pirates and Cincy on how they both traded Bautista and EE respectively?

 

Imagine if Pittsburgh had Bautista now?

[kgm1]

I agree with the philosophical strategy you are saying but the trade has worked in favour of the Blue Jays for what they were trying to do. The problem is not having additional payroll flexibility to compliment the players you brought in. If you were going to make those trades having payroll topped out at 140 is not a good recipe for success.

lol yeahhhh...

'

 

Rogers got exactly what they wanted out of the trades . TV viewership is up and attendance is ok. They are making money and now they can cut costs and limp along till apathy starts to set in and they need to kick start it again. They will use the excuse that attendance is down and budgets need to follow attendance. 137 million should be enough but stopping dead showed more of a commitment to making money than wining

[jaysblue]

Imagine if Pittsburgh had Bautista now?

 

An outfield of Bautista, McCutchen and Marte!

 

Edit: Also forgot Polanco lol. So I'm assuming Bautista would move to third or first.

 

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/Fap-GIFS.gif

Edited September 30, 2014 by jaysblue

[GD]

An outfield of Bautista, McCutchen and Marte!

 

Edit: Also forgot Polanco lol. So I'm assuming Bautista would move to third or first.

 

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/Fap-GIFS.gif

 

C Martin

1B Alvarez

2B Walker

SS Mercer

3B Bautista

LF Marte

CF McCutchen

RF Bautista

 

Minors: Polanco, Meadows, Bell, Hanson

 

CHRIST

[jaysblue]

C Martin

1B Alvarez

2B Walker

SS Mercer

3B Bautista

LF Marte

CF McCutchen

RF Bautista

 

Minors: Polanco, Meadows, Bell, Hanson

 

CHRIST

 

Having two Bautista's (one playing RF and one playing 3B) is definitely unbelievable

[LongTimeReader]

Imagine the Jays had Yan Gomes this year

[Orgfiller]

C Martin

1B Alvarez

2B Walker

SS Mercer

3B Bautista

LF Marte

CF McCutchen

RF Bautista

 

Minors: Polanco, Meadows, Bell, Hanson

 

CHRIST

 

Bautista is so good he plays multiple positions at the same time.

[GD]

Having two Bautista's (one playing RF and one playing 3B) is definitely unbelievable

 

I meant Harrison at one of those positions I forget which lol

[Angrioter]

Bautista is so good he plays multiple positions at the same time.

 

Gold Joke ^^^

[ElNik2013]

'

 

Rogers got exactly what they wanted out of the trades . TV viewership is up and attendance is ok. They are making money and now they can cut costs and limp along till apathy starts to set in and they need to kick start it again. They will use the excuse that attendance is down and budgets need to follow attendance. 137 million should be enough but stopping dead showed more of a commitment to making money than wining

 

 

Without the trades, the Jays lose 100 games in 2013 and have horrible attendance. But who cares about attendance and tv ratings? Guess who, the owners.

 

I don't agree with having gone for it, but some people just fail to understand how this franchise operates.

 

All good though.

[JaysFan4Ever]

Padres

 

LOL

 

He can be their 2015 Josh Johnson

 

lol did JJ even throw a single pitch in ST? IIRC he was on the DL almost as soon as the ink dried and then his 2nd TJS came along. I could see that happening to Morrow. Here's an $8M contract to an injury prone player (though he swore to us he wasn't so we gave him that money) only to go down with some new injury.

[JaysFan4Ever]

I am scared to see what AA Does as far as the relievers. He's publicly stated he wants to improve the pen and we know he doesn't like to tip his cards so I see other GMs bending him over more than usual or even the 3rd tier, or AAAA agents extorting him into higher contracts which might hamstring the other areas more so than it might be now.

[TheHurl]

This is a good place as any to post that JPA rumour I completely randomly heard and hinted at a few weeks ago. I'm working at the Boxing Ontario booth at the Hershey Centre when some guy starts talking to me. Through him asking what I'd like to get out of my Sports Management program we get around to talking about baseball and AA. I share my always positive opinions about AA and his Ninja skills. Anyway this guy throws out that he was friends with Yan Gomes and that Gomes was traded because him and JPA couldn't get along and JPA essentially forced the Jays hand and made them trade Gomes. My prof was the Sport Psychologist for the University of Tennessee when both JPA and Gomes were there so he did some investigating as to whether there was any truth to the rumours and he absolutely could not confirm any of it (even if Gomes left UT because of JPA there is no confirmation).

 

So it was a fun little rumour but considering the source (random guy who talks to strangers) I would call this one as reliable as a Kevin Gray report.

[burlingtonbandit]

What were they "trying to do" exactly? Fail to make the post-season again? They overpaid for proven talent and tried to turn a 73 win team into WS contenders overnight and have failed miserably so far. Those trades were terrible at the time and look even worse now knowing how much it ended up tying their hands. But no, those trades worked out for us because WE GOTS 10 WARS out of 3 proven players. Whoopty f***ing doo.

 

The 2013 team was projected to win over 90 games and the AL East IIRC. Obviously a ton of things went wrong, but the team after the trades was still supposed to be one of top teams in the AL. I don't think you understand that I'm not saying I would do the trades again if given the chance, but rather they worked better than people are giving credit for. If AA had gone out and got a 2nd baseman or traded for Headley and McCarthy at the deadline we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

The reason for not being in the postseason is sitting on your hands in the offseason and during the season, not the trades that happened in 2013.

[burlingtonbandit]

This is a good place as any to post that JPA rumour I completely randomly heard and hinted at a few weeks ago. I'm working at the Boxing Ontario booth at the Hershey Centre when some guy starts talking to me. Through him asking what I'd like to get out of my Sports Management program we get around to talking about baseball and AA. I share my always positive opinions about AA and his Ninja skills. Anyway this guy throws out that he was friends with Yan Gomes and that Gomes was traded because him and JPA couldn't get along and JPA essentially forced the Jays hand and made them trade Gomes. My prof was the Sport Psychologist for the University of Tennessee when both JPA and Gomes were there so he did some investigating as to whether there was any truth to the rumours and he absolutely could not confirm any of it (even if Gomes left UT because of JPA there is no confirmation).

 

So it was a fun little rumour but considering the source (random guy who talks to strangers) I would call this one as reliable as a Kevin Gray report.

 

Greg Zaun was on PTS the other day and was commenting about how there's a few guys in the clubhouse that he knows other players hate. He said he talks to guys around the team and knows this to be true. He didn't say names directly but hinted two of them were JPA and Lawrie.

 

So as much as your random stranger's story could be false it wouldn't surprise me if guys on the team Gomes or not didn't like him. Now did Gomes get traded because he didn't like JP? Probably had more to do with the Indians asking for him for Rogers than anything, but doesn't mean it wasn't true.

 

Its funny that Lawrie is Canadian because the way he acts is very American and not Canadian at all. Huge Alpha make who doesn't give a s*** about other people and thinks its all about him. You could probably say that describes 90% of MLB players but Lawrie is to the extreme.