Offseason roster thread 2014

[kgm1]

With all the back and forth that goes on about Ownership and Management this is a great time to read this article. While I am not DJF biggest fan this article captures everything perfectly.

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2014/09/26/about-last-night-and-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/

 

Definitely never been a DJF fan but he put my thoughts on paper perfectly. If they think they can make more money losing than committing to the $$ to win they would rather lose.

[kgm1]

Top 10 payroll SHOULD be good enough. I did mention in my post that IF, people above AA pushed for the big flashy moves after the 2012 season and approved the payroll increase fully aware of the payroll repercussions for the following 2-3 years and then got cold feet after year 1 went sour, then IMO, it takes some of the blame off AA's back and onto ownership. However, that's a big "IF".

 

All a matter of opinion . you consider that a big IF . I think it is a fact of how things went down.

[Jimcanuck]

Surprised at the negativity towards Gose... he was a very valuable player this year. In an extended time in the bigs, he's managed a .320 ish OBP. With some more experience I can see him levelling off at .335 OBP. He's a guy I see improving for the next few years with regular playing time.

 

Said it before.... QO to Melky and let him walk, take the pick. Rasmus walks. Use funds freed up to sign one of the big 3 FA pitchers. I know, unlikely to come to TO unless its a big overpay. Hutch to the Cubbies for Starlin (sweeten the deal if you have to).

 

Run with an OF of Gose, Pompey, Jose. Essentially replacing Melky with Pompey and I wouldn't be surprised if Pompey outperforms Melky in 2015.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

Surprised at the negativity towards Gose... he was a very valuable player this year. In an extended time in the bigs, he's managed a .320 ish OBP. With some more experience I can see him levelling off at .335 OBP. He's a guy I see improving for the next few years with regular playing time.

 

Said it before.... QO to Melky and let him walk, take the pick. Rasmus walks. Use funds freed up to sign one of the big 3 FA pitchers. I know, unlikely to come to TO unless its a big overpay. Hutch to the Cubbies for Starlin (sweeten the deal if you have to).

 

Run with an OF of Gose, Pompey, Jose. Essentially replacing Melky with Pompey and I wouldn't be surprised if Pompey outperforms Melky in 2015.

 

Outfielder's can be found still during free agency but either way Melkey needs to signed sealed and delivered!

Let Lind walk and Melky can be a Full time DH.

[Jimcanuck]

Outfielder's can be found still during free agency but either way Melkey needs to signed sealed and delivered!

Let Lind walk and Melky can be a Full time DH.

 

For the cost and what he provides at the plate, I would never sign Melky as a $15M a year DH, which is approx. what it will take

 

Melky was playing for a contract, watch him sign somewhere else for 3 years and promptly suck

[burlingtonbandit]

Definitely never been a DJF fan but he put my thoughts on paper perfectly. If they think they can make more money losing than committing to the $$ to win they would rather lose.

 

Exactly. He put into words exactly what I was trying to say and also made sense doing it.

[ElNik2013]

All a matter of opinion . you consider that a big IF . I think it is a fact of how things went down.

 

 

I would think information proving this would've come out by now.

 

I have opined in the past that what I thought went down was that they didn't want to go into 2013 expected to lose 90 and possibly 100 games and went into the offseason with the mandate of improving the team at all cost. The reason I think this is because Rogers owns the Jays to provide content for its tv channels and going into a season expected to lose 90 games is not conducive to good ratings.

 

On the other hand, even if this were true, I still don't think it excuses overpaying for overpaid players.

 

 

I will say though, that AA has acted like a man who has complete backing from his bosses, so maybe some posters are underestimating to what extent a lot of what they do is driven by trying to provide watchable content for RSN even if they're not the most efficient moves.

[ElNik2013]

The top 10 payroll argument for me doesn't cut it. Situations changes all the time and when it comes time that you need a player to make the team better and you don't add money, that is bad ownership. Rogers is really walking the tight rope with the fans and if fans find out Rogers stood in the way from the team getting better because they didn't want to add money then you risk losing a lot more money then if you would of just added 10-20 million in payroll.

 

 

I can agree to some extent with the train of thought that says that once they made the moves they made, they needed to go the extra mile. On the other hand, that Mohammed character retired and he was the one who had approved the payroll increase so a new CEO came in and he probably doesn't see things the same way.

 

AA could've also made moves to shed some payroll. Anyway, we'll see what happens.

[burlingtonbandit]

I can agree to some extent with the train of thought that says that once they made the moves they made, they needed to go the extra mile. On the other hand, that Mohammed character retired and he was the one who had approved the payroll increase so a new CEO came in and he probably doesn't see things the same way.

 

AA could've also made moves to shed some payroll. Anyway, we'll see what happens.

 

You should read this article, it has insight about the entire situation.

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2014/09/26/about-last-night-and-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/

[ElNik2013]

You should read this article, it has insight about the entire situation.

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2014/09/26/about-last-night-and-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/

 

 

I did. I have always said to all the AA bashers that ownership sets the vision for a franchise and the baseball operations people are tasked with executing said vision. It starts at the top. As I've said, if they had the right vision, they wouldn't have abandoned the rebuilding process they had started.

 

Their vision is to field a team that's good, but not good enough...it's been evident over the time Rogers has owned this team. They're never bad enough to get the top picks and never good enough to win. Basically, they're good enough to watch....which is what they're looking for.

[John_Havok]

I did. I have always said to all the AA bashers that ownership sets the vision for a franchise and the baseball operations people are tasked with executing said vision. It starts at the top. As I've said, if they had the right vision, they wouldn't have abandoned the rebuilding process they had started.

 

Their vision is to field a team that's good, but not good enough...it's been evident over the time Rogers has owned this team. They're never bad enough to get the top picks and never good enough to win. Basically, they're good enough to watch....which is what they're looking for.

 

Yes, but the logic that they only want a "watchable" team and not a winning team is false. What logic would there be that? They'd make waaaaaay more money with a winning team. Just because AA s*** the bed with the payroll increase doesn't mean all they want is a watchable team and nothing more...

[burlingtonbandit]

Yes, but the logic that they only want a "watchable" team and not a winning team is false. What logic would there be that? They'd make waaaaaay more money with a winning team. Just because AA s*** the bed with the payroll increase doesn't mean all they want is a watchable team and nothing more...

 

It also means that they won't take the necessary risks to spend a lot of money to have a greater chance of winning. All GMs including the good ones are going to make moves that don't turn out well. Handcuffing that GM of adding payroll in the future because he did it once and it didn't work out is a bad strategy to have in the sports industry.

[ElNik2013]

Yes, but the logic that they only want a "watchable" team and not a winning team is false. What logic would there be that? They'd make waaaaaay more money with a winning team. Just because AA s*** the bed with the payroll increase doesn't mean all they want is a watchable team and nothing more...

 

 

The point, maybe not well made, is that they won't double up to get the missing pieces as long as the team is competitive...like this year's. Also, what was your prediction going into 2013, regardless of how inefficiently the team was put together?

 

Another point is that by approving the big increase in payroll, they had to know how much more it would take just to retain the same core and to take into account the possibility of needing to make further additions. Now, if AA knew all along that there would be no additional payroll room to add to the team, then it's all on him. However, given how they're operating now, to me, it points to a one-time payroll increase for a couple of years. I also think it was done in large part to avoid going into 2013 expected to lose 90-100 games which would've meant much lower attendance and ratings than they had.

 

And yes, we've seen this act before, under Ricciardi. They increased payroll for a couple of years only to pull back when he needed to spend more.

[ElNik2013]

Yes, but the logic that they only want a "watchable" team and not a winning team is false. What logic would there be that? They'd make waaaaaay more money with a winning team. Just because AA s*** the bed with the payroll increase doesn't mean all they want is a watchable team and nothing more...

 

 

 

Let me also add this: If, like you say, AA s*** the bed with the payroll increase, then why hasn't he been fired? What I'm getting at is that I don't think AA decided on his own to make the moves he made at the time he made them. AA has acted like a GM who has the complete backing of his bosses. There was no sign of urgency neither last off season nor during the season.

 

I just think the moves were aimed at trying to avoid going into 2013 expected to lose 90 to 100 games even if it was at the expense of efficiency and a large chunk of a top ranked farm system. I think they're adverse to being viewed as a bottom 10 team and when they're on the brink of such a situation, they are willing to open the purse strings just enough to avoid it, even if it means giving away youth.

 

Gotta give AA credit though, on rebuilding the farm system once again. It was stated by many at the time of the trades, that he wouldn't be able to rebuild it because he had built it to where it was by gaming the compensatory system and that system had been changed. Well, the farm team is looking decent once again...for whatever that's worth.

[kgm1]

The previous posts pretty much cover how i feel but I would add that As DFJ points out in the article Rogers has done a great job making fans think this is a small market team. Hell they had me convinced.

 

Then the board started pointing out TV viewership . Toronto area population . This is at worst still a top ten market and only if the dollar really sinks does it fall out of the top ten.

[kgm1]

Yes, but the logic that they only want a "watchable" team and not a winning team is false. What logic would there be that? They'd make waaaaaay more money with a winning team. Just because AA s*** the bed with the payroll increase doesn't mean all they want is a watchable team and nothing more...

 

As the article by DFJ points out, how many bad contracts do the big spenders give out and forget about . How many has Cashman done! Only small market GM,s get slaughtered for making any mistakes.

 

AA got the increase and all the so called experts in the game picked the Jays to win . They all liked his deals and only a few looked at the talent given up as a negative. A lot of factors went in the bad 2013 season but only a small market mentality goes all stop 1 year into a 3 year plan.

[ElNik2013]

As the article by DFJ points out, how many bad contracts do the big spenders give out and forget about . How many has Cashman done! Only small market GM,s get slaughtered for making any mistakes.

 

AA got the increase and all the so called experts in the game picked the Jays to win . They all liked his deals and only a few looked at the talent given up as a negative. A lot of factors went in the bad 2013 season but only a small market mentality goes all stop 1 year into a 3 year plan.

 

 

 

The point re Cashman is a salient one. I've seen several AA haters, not that I'm a huge backer, praise Cashman for always making moves at the deadline to improve his team, like the Headley and Prado acquisitions this past July, yet seem to ignore the fact that these moves are demanded and financed by ownership.

 

Cashman has won, but not without his share of mistakes in the form of bad contracts. On the other hand, the contracts can't be that bad if ownership won't fire him as a result.

 

The bigger point is that ownership sets the vision and are willing to pony up to make it happen. It starts at the very top.

[ElNik2013]

The team is also looking deeper at the AAA level in terms of youth getting close to the MLB level. Now, not all of them project to be everyday players, but as we all know, a well rounded roster needs capable back ups. I'm referring to guys like Burns, Jimenez, Nolin, Pillar, Graveman, even a guy like Ryan Schimpf. Then you have guys like Pompey, Norris, Sanchez.

 

If the team went out and spent some money this off season to plug SS/2B, OF, C (Martin?), in no particular order, then I think we'd see a team on the cusp of having a good chance to contend.

 

Anyway...we'll have to continue to wait till next year and see.

[Smokey]

AA got the increase and all the so called experts in the game picked the Jays to win . They all liked his deals and only a few looked at the talent given up as a negative.

 

Here we go again... Another failed season by the fat man and the next round of delusional excuses and justifications by an old man who'd rather hold on to his false beliefs to the dying breath. I know it's hard to believe, but after 5 long years, AA still hasn't been able to assemble a complete roster and has completely neglected the importance of depth or even defense at such key position as the catcher. You can ignore that and keep whining and moaning about the ownership all you like but you're only fooling yourself.

[Smokey]

The team is also looking deeper at the AAA level in terms of youth getting close to the MLB level. Now, not all of them project to be everyday players, but as we all know, a well rounded roster needs capable back ups. I'm referring to guys like Burns, Jimenez, Nolin, Pillar, Graveman, even a guy like Ryan Schimpf. Then you have guys like Pompey, Norris, Sanchez.

 

If the team went out and spent some money this off season to plug SS/2B, OF, C (Martin?), in no particular order, then I think we'd see a team on the cusp of having a good chance to contend.

 

Anyway...we'll have to continue to wait till next year and see.

 

Everyone but the fat man, apparently.

[ElNik2013]

Here we go again... Another failed season by the fat man and the next round of delusional excuses and justifications by an old man who'd rather hold on to his false beliefs to the dying breath. I know it's hard to believe, but after 5 long years, AA still hasn't been able to assemble a complete roster and has completely neglected the importance of depth or even defense at such key position as the catcher. You can ignore that and keep whining and moaning about ownership all you like but you're only fooling yourself.

 

 

I know this wasn't directed at me, but #1: I can count 2 failed seasons by AA, 2013 and 2014. From 2010 to 2012, they were admittedly not trying to contend.

 

And #2: If he's been such a failure, then why hasn't this blameless ownership group fired this incompetent bum?

 

Seems #2 points to bigger issues than the GM, which is something I keep bringing up whenever people go off on AA.

 

Does anyone here think the Rays or Cards owners would've approved those trades in 2012? No way, and if they had, I'm sure they would've understood the full impact on future payroll.

[Smokey]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but #1: I can count 2 failed seasons by AA, 2013 and 2014. From 2010 to 2012, they were admittedly not trying to contend.

 

The fact that they weren't "trying" to contend in 2010-2012 makes the failures of the last couple years even greater. Besides, 2 failed seasons doesn't qualify as "another" failed season to you?

 

 

And #2: If he's been such a failure, then why hasn't this blameless ownership group fired this incompetent bum?

 

Seems #2 points to bigger issues than the GM, which is something I keep bringing up whenever people go off on AA.

 

If AA doesn't get canned this offseason, then yes I think that would say a lot about the ownership. But it still doesn't dismiss the glaring issue with AA's inability to assemble a complete roster.

[ElNik2013]

The fact that they weren't "trying" to contend in 2010-2012 makes the failures of the last couple years even greater. Besides, 2 failed seasons doesn't qualify as "another" failed season to you?

 

 

How does not trying to contend in 2010-2012 make the failures of the last 2 seasons even greater? He was trying to rebuild a barren farm system and succeeded. And yes, a 2nd failed season does qualify as "another" failed season, but I thought you meant more than 2, hence why I brought up 2010-2012.

 

 

 

 

 

If AA doesn't get canned this offseason, then yes I think that would say a lot about the ownership. But it still doesn't dismiss the glaring issue with AA's inability to assemble a complete roster.

 

He won't get canned although, at times, I have thought he might. His not getting canned certainly doesn't dismiss "the glaring issue with AA's inability to assemble a complete roster". However, it also points to ownership's inability to recognize a GM who doesn't have this ability.

 

Also, do the Red Sox have a "complete roster"? Do the Rays? Do the Yankees with their huge payroll? In fact, who has a "complete roster"?

 

Also, what do you think of the Orioles now and what did you think of them in 2012 and prior to the start of the season?

[Smokey]

How does not trying to contend in 2010-2012 make the failures of the last 2 seasons even greater?

 

Because the plan, as he painted it himself, was to load up with as many young arms and raw talent as possible and when the time is right, put those assets to good use and compete. By declaring that "we're not ready yet" in the past, he ducked a lot of the pressures that come with the job and now that it's time to deliver, he's showing to be a complete flop. I don't even know why I have to explain this... we've just wrapped up the second year of a three year imaginary window to compete and after years of patiently waiting for him to implement his plan, he's still showing no sense of urgency and still wasting roster stops on minor league scrubs.

 

Also, do the Red Sox have a "complete roster"? Do the Rays? Do the Yankees with their huge payroll? In fact, who has a "complete roster"?

 

The FO of those franchises are head and shoulders above the incompetent retards that run this team and their track record proves that.

 

Also, what do you think of the Orioles now and what did you think of them in 2012 and prior to the start of the season?

 

I obviously didn't think much of them before and still don't think much of them now. However, unlike the Jays, they've been able to take advantage of a weak division and they've done so by combining their good fortunes with some decent FA signings and trades. But I still don't consider them a championship caliber team and fail to see what point you're getting at.

 

As I've mentioned before, I'm not here to defend the ownership... But as a corporation whose main goal is to make a profit and satisfy the stakeholders, they're essentially doing what is expected of them. I might not like it as a fan, but it comes with the territory and you have to somewhat expect it. AA's job on the other hand, was to take his sweet ass time and finally put a competitive product together when the time was right and he was given the opportunity to do just that. But instead, he decided to hand out starting jobs to guys like JPA and Goins and put the team behind the eight ball before the season even got underway. Yes, ultimately AA is hired by Rogers, but the fact that he's had a major role in this f***-up shouldn't be ignored or dismissed.

 

However, it also points to ownership's inability to recognize a GM who doesn't have this ability.

 

I originally stated that it's foolish to ignore AA's mistakes just because his trades were supposedly well liked (as Ken suggested) and you responded by saying that because they're not firing him, "it points to bigger issues than the GM" which is pretty irrelevant to the point i was making. Now you're pointing out the ownership's inability to hire someone more competent. Even if that was the case, so what? Are we not allowed to criticize the GM because the ownership is perceived to be incapable of rectifying the problem??

Edited September 27, 2014 by Smokey

[BTS]

Now you're pointing out the ownership's inability to hire someone more competent. Even if that was the case, so what? Are we not allowed to criticize the GM because the ownership is perceived to be incapable of rectifying the problem??

 

I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up. We all know that nobody at Rogers understands baseball. There's no reason to complain about it because A) they aren't going to sell the team, and it's possible to have a sustained run of success with them as the owners. If they're going to provide a top-10 payroll, the team can win under their ownership. They just have to hire the right President. On the other hand, I don't think this team can win under Beeston and AA. They need to be fired ASAP so Rogers can take another kick at the can and attempt to hire a competent President.

[Abomination]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up. We all know that nobody at Rogers understands baseball. There's no reason to complain about it because A) they aren't going to sell the team, and it's possible to have a sustained run of success with them as the owners. If they're going to provide a top-10 payroll, the team can win under their ownership. They just have to hire the right President. On the other hand, I don't think this team can win under Beeston and AA. They need to be fired ASAP so Rogers can take another kick at the can and attempt to hire a competent President.

 

Maybe the best approach is to have Beeston retire, and move AA up to President. That may be a better fit for him anyway. Then pay a bunch to lure a proven great GM away from someone

[BTS]

Maybe the best approach is to have Beeston retire, and move AA up to President. That may be a better fit for him anyway. Then pay a bunch to lure a proven great GM away from someone

 

The idea of AA getting promoted out of the GM spot is offensive to me, even if it is likely a better situation than the status quo.

[ElNik2013]

Because the plan, as he painted it himself, was to load up with as many young arms and raw talent as possible and when the time is right, put those assets to good use and compete. By declaring that "we're not ready yet" in the past, he ducked a lot of the pressures that come with the job and now that it's time to deliver, he's showing to be a complete flop. I don't even know why I have to explain this... we've just wrapped up the second year of a three year imaginary window to compete and after years of patiently waiting for him to implement his plan, he's still showing no sense of urgency and still wasting roster stops on minor league scrubs.

 

He overpaid in the trades he made, no one is denying this. I just don't see how trying to rebuild the farm system between 2010-2012 equals "ducking a lot of the pressures that come with the job". What exactly was the alternative given the state of the franchise at the time? And, he did all this with full support from his bosses, whether directly from the owners or through the owners' representative. I have no problem criticizing AA, I couldn't care less if he was fired.

 

 

 

The FO of those franchises are head and shoulders above the incompetent retards that run this team and their track record proves that.

 

I never said otherwise. Hopefully, next time, you'll answer the question, but it's no big deal, it's just a discussion. You do seem upset though.

 

 

 

I obviously didn't think much of them before and still don't think much of them now. However, unlike the Jays, they've been able to take advantage of a weak division and they've done so by combining their good fortunes with some decent FA signings and trades. But I still don't consider them a championship caliber team and fail to see what point you're getting at.

 

 

It's just to point out that you, I and others, don't know as much as we think we know. I'm sure you also thought the Rays and Red Sox would contend, but so did I although I did expect the Red Sox to come back down to earth, just not to be as bad as they've been. But again, neither I nor you know it all even though we pretend to behind the cover and anonymity of the internet.

 

As I've mentioned before, I'm not here to defend the ownership... But as a corporation whose main goal is to make a profit and satisfy the stakeholders, they're essentially doing what is expected of them. I might not like it as a fan, but it comes with the territory and you have to somewhat expect it. AA's job on the other hand, was to take his sweet ass time and finally put a competitive product together when the time was right and he was given the opportunity to do just that. But instead, he decided to hand out starting jobs to guys like JPA and Goins and put the team behind the eight ball before the season even got underway. Yes, ultimately AA is hired by Rogers, but the fact that he's had a major role in this f***-up shouldn't be ignored or dismissed.

 

I have no problem with what you say here all I'd say is that if the owners are satisfied with him, don't expect him to get fired, but you can do as you please of course and get upset.

 

 

I originally stated that it's foolish to ignore AA's mistakes just because his trades were supposedly well liked (as Ken suggested) and you responded by saying that because they're not firing him, "it points to bigger issues than the GM" which is pretty irrelevant to the point i was making. Now you're pointing out the ownership's inability to hire someone more competent. Even if that was the case, so what? Are we not allowed to criticize the GM because the ownership is perceived to be incapable of rectifying the problem??

 

 

I never said you're not allowed to criticize the GM. But others are also allowed to criticize ownership for not firing him, if in fact he's not doing a satisfactory job. I think you even stated that this would be a valid point if AA wasn't fired after this season. I guess we'll have to wait for the offseason to see whether this point is validated.

 

 

And just to rinse and repeat, criticize him all you want, but this franchise has bigger problems than its GM.

[Atothe]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up. We all know that nobody at Rogers understands baseball. There's no reason to complain about it because A) they aren't going to sell the team, and it's possible to have a sustained run of success with them as the owners. If they're going to provide a top-10 payroll, the team can win under their ownership. They just have to hire the right President. On the other hand, I don't think this team can win under Beeston and AA. They need to be fired ASAP so Rogers can take another kick at the can and attempt to hire a competent President.

 

Its very possible they can hire the right guy even if they don't know jack s*** about baseball. MLSE hired Tim Leiweke and MLSE (Rogers & Bell) have no idea on how to run a sports franchise. Granted Larry Tanenbaum is significant minority owner but that hasn't done anything for the raptors, leafs or TFC. Rogers need to swing for the fence and get a big baseball name for the president or ceo or whatever they would like to call the position.

[ElNik2013]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up. We all know that nobody at Rogers understands baseball. There's no reason to complain about it because A) they aren't going to sell the team, and it's possible to have a sustained run of success with them as the owners. If they're going to provide a top-10 payroll, the team can win under their ownership. They just have to hire the right President. On the other hand, I don't think this team can win under Beeston and AA. They need to be fired ASAP so Rogers can take another kick at the can and attempt to hire a competent President.

 

 

So we shouldn't complain about the team's owners's inability to hire someone competent because they aren't going to sell the team even though all they have to do is "just hire the right President".

 

Sounds so simple yet they haven't done it in almost 15 years of owning the team...but no one should complain about it.