Henderson Alvarez

[GeorgiaPeach]

Anyways AA is already all in. The days of saving prospects are over.

 

Its time, strip the farm system and lets go for it.

 

I'll have to start taking names.

 

Who wanted the Jays to go all in for 2014. And when the cupboard is bare those same posters can't say a peep about how s*** the team is.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I'd be okay with moving Edwin or Bautista this month or next for a haul of young talent. Both are 30+, are likely not going to be playing like this for years. So yes I'd trade off maybe not winning this year to have a much better shot at winning for 5 or 6 years.

 

Your nuts man. Just to illustrate it though, please let us know any trade of this nature that a team in first place by 4.5+ games has made. Any team, any year, show me one case where a GM starting rebuilding for the future in such a successful year. I can't think of one trade like this in 37 years.

 

You seem devoted to this delusional theory that the Jays aren't contenders this year, and are advocating moves that would ensure that result.

[Angrioter]

Aaron Sanchez stuff + Alvarez command = Pedro Martinez

[Hipfan]

The Jays could've kept all the farm pieces they moved in the Marlins & Dickey trade and overbid 5m per year each on a handful of free agents they might've been targeting and I would've preferred that route.

 

 

 

I'd rather the Jays have offered Anibal Sanchez 25 mil a year and kept Henderson Alvarez than not have Alvarez and pay Buehrle close to 20 mil.

 

 

 

I guess in your scenario the Jays are playing shy with how much money they'll spend, because as it stands the Sox, Yanks, Dodgers and a couple other teams will easily top Toronto in doling money out to players (FA's) or complete a trade taking on significant payroll. So if the Jays are willing to run the payroll up another 50 mil great, otherwise they can't ignore the farm to keep some sort of payroll flexibility in place.

 

 

 

And if Hoyer says we want Stroman+? Or we want Sanchez and two of your other top 5 prospects?

 

Your first point never would happen under the leadership of Beeston (I'm not going there), so it's moot. The Jays have consistently stated they prefer the trade market. Plus, to keep things on topic, I'm not a huge fan of Alvarez; he should have a much higher strikeout rate for the pure stuff that he has. Maybe he develops this as he gets older, but maybe not. At least with Beurhle he's a proven commodity.

 

They Jays may also be willing to increase payroll; they have stated as much and there's no reason to believe otherwise, with the way the season is going.

 

I guess my point is that we have proven veterans that are playing well, and there is no way they are in first place had they not given up guys like Alvarez. He may be a great pitcher in the future, but I don't understand why so many people are willing to mortgage the present for the possibility of the future. If you have a chance to make a win now trade, like the Marlins deal, you should be all over it. It turned the Jays into instant contenders, and isn't that what we all want? It didn't turn out great last year, but it sure is working this year.

[John_Havok]

Your first point never would happen under the leadership of Beeston (I'm not going there), so it's moot. The Jays have consistently stated they prefer the trade market. Plus, to keep things on topic, I'm not a huge fan of Alvarez; he should have a much higher strikeout rate for the pure stuff that he has. Maybe he develops this as he gets older, but maybe not. At least with Beurhle he's a proven commodity.

 

They Jays may also be willing to increase payroll; they have stated as much and there's no reason to believe otherwise, with the way the season is going.

 

I guess my point is that we have proven veterans that are playing well, and there is no way they are in first place had they not given up guys like Alvarez. He may be a great pitcher in the future, but I don't understand why so many people are willing to mortgage the present for the possibility of the future. If you have a chance to make a win now trade, like the Marlins deal, you should be all over it. It turned the Jays into instant contenders, and isn't that what we all want? It didn't turn out great last year, but it sure is working this year.

 

The same argument could be applied against you, why mortgage the future for the chance(because it's not guaranteed as we saw last year) for a win now trade?

 

There's a happy medium in between where you grow your own talent, supplement with free agents and not gave to re-sign all the guys that head to free agency. Could use them to trade for additional prospects to refill the minors when needed, and the then as the team gets older new young guys come in to start a new core, supplement with free agents... Etc etc.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Your nuts man. Just to illustrate it though, please let us know any trade of this nature that a team in first place by 4.5+ games has made. Any team, any year, show me one case where a GM starting rebuilding for the future in such a successful year. I can't think of one trade like this in 37 years.

 

You seem devoted to this delusional theory that the Jays aren't contenders this year, and are advocating moves that would ensure that result.

 

I'm not a fan of "rebuilding", retooling, however I'm a big fan of.

 

I just threw Edwin's & Jose's name out there, because at some point in the near future they should be moved. If it's not this season, it has to be soon. Keeping them until free agency looms or extending them until retirement is ridiculous asset & organizational management.

 

IMO Rasmus must be moved. If he's QO'd I don't trust another team signing him to what he'd be looking for.

 

As for the Jays being contenders...before the season started they weren't. And I believe they're still a very good piece or two away from being legit. Everything has gone their way to this point in time and the division has been a bit of a mess. If a Buehrle, Dickey or Hutchison were to go down to injury, they Jays are in big trouble. I don't trust the rotation now and expect a regression, let alone someone getting injured.

 

And I'd love to go back and look at trades, but I'm doing some homework for my Fantasy Drafts that'll be starting up Monday.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Your first point never would happen under the leadership of Beeston (I'm not going there), so it's moot. The Jays have consistently stated they prefer the trade market. Plus, to keep things on topic, I'm not a huge fan of Alvarez; he should have a much higher strikeout rate for the pure stuff that he has. Maybe he develops this as he gets older, but maybe not. At least with Beurhle he's a proven commodity.

 

If they've preferred the trade market then why were offers put out to Anibal Sanchez and Beltran over the past couple years? And again, without thinking twice I would've kept Henderson Alvarez and the 18 and 19m Buehrle's owed would've best been used towards Anibal Sanchez and offer him 20m per instead of the 16m he's getting, Sanchez being a much better asset than Buehrle and you still have Henderson Alvarez.

 

They Jays may also be willing to increase payroll; they have stated as much and there's no reason to believe otherwise, with the way the season is going.

 

They're about 40-50 mil short of where they need to be if anyone thinks they're gonna be a player.

 

 

I guess my point is that we have proven veterans that are playing well, and there is no way they are in first place had they not given up guys like Alvarez. He may be a great pitcher in the future, but I don't understand why so many people are willing to mortgage the present for the possibility of the future. If you have a chance to make a win now trade, like the Marlins deal, you should be all over it. It turned the Jays into instant contenders, and isn't that what we all want? It didn't turn out great last year, but it sure is working this year.

 

The Rays seem to turn over their star and solid players for prospects and they're winning 90+ games a year....barring decimation due to injuries this year.

[Captain Adama]

Alvarez in the AL East probably has a high 4 ERA. He plays in an extreme pitchers park in a division that can't score runs. Give credit where credit is due. But hes not as good as his numbers suggest. We would probably hammer him. He doesn't miss bats.

 

xFIP and SIERA make up for that....and Alvarez is beating Beuhrle by half a run still. And he's making 14 million less.

 

Gotta apologize to jjipidy though, I said Alavarez was gonna be utter garbage, he's legitimately proving me wrong.

[RIPEXPOS]

I was always a big Alvarez fan, my concern with him was always health but so far he's looking great. He looks like the best piece given up in those deals last year...

[jb22]

As for the Jays being contenders...before the season started they weren't. And I believe they're still a very good piece or two away from being legit.

 

So you think they're possibly one piece away from being a legit contender, and instead of getting that one piece you want to see them trade AWAY a piece, putting them further away from contending? Makes sense. No team in a million years would trade a JB or Edwin leading the division by 4.5 games on june 5th. That would be GM career suicide. Thank f*** you're not our GM.

[Jimcanuck]

SSS applies

[GeorgiaPeach]

So you think they're possibly one piece away from being a legit contender, and instead of getting that one piece you want to see them trade AWAY a piece, putting them further away from contending? Makes sense. No team in a million years would trade a JB or Edwin leading the division by 4.5 games on june 5th. That would be GM career suicide. Thank f*** you're not our GM.

 

It scares me what the Jays would essentially be giving up for a "rental". I really don't see any of the SP names who are being floated as targets wanting to ink an extension with us.

 

And at some point in the near future Edwin AND Bautista should be traded.

Edited June 5, 2014 by GeorgiaPeach

[Jimcanuck]

It scares me what the Jays would essentially be giving up for a "rental". I really don't see any of the SP names who are being floated as targets wanting to ink an extension with us.

 

Best outcome is Stroman performs like '91 Guzman and a rental not needed

 

if that happens Beuhrle, Hutchison, Dickey, and Stroman are a competent playoffs 4some

 

then in the offseason move some veterans for youth

[KingKat]

SSS applies

 

That's why I'd like to know if he's still throwing with the same repertoire. If he's still the same two pitch pitcher, regression seems inevitable but if he's added a third pitch, it could be a turning point although you would think if that were the case the K rate would be higher.

[BigCecil]

I'll have to start taking names.

 

Who wanted the Jays to go all in for 2014. And when the cupboard is bare those same posters can't say a peep about how s*** the team is.

 

Take my name. We are all in at this point with deals (or damage depending on how you look at it). The AL East is open this year that opp rarely presents itself. Over the years reams of discussion has happened on the likes of Snider and D'arnaud, forecasting them as impact players in our line up under cheap control for years to come.

 

I don't like Lee's contract but wouldn't be opposed to Sheilds deal. Id like to keep Stroman if possible as he actually looks like he could make some impact at the MLB level.

 

Ill live with the consequences as a fan.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Take my name. We are all in at this point with deals (or damage depending on how you look at it). The AL East is open this year that opp rarely presents itself. Over the years reams of discussion has happened on the likes of Snider and D'arnaud, forecasting them as impact players in our line up under cheap control for years to come.

 

I don't like Lee's contract but wouldn't be opposed to Sheilds deal. Id like to keep Stroman if possible as he actually looks like he could make some impact at the MLB level.

 

Ill live with the consequences as a fan.

 

You missed my point. I'd be taking names of fans who want to make a massive playoff push with a trade(s) now by gutting the farm. And when the team is bad, because the farm is non-existent and the team is a couple years older on top of already being old, those same fans that wanted the push towards a veteran laden, expensive team are then complaining that the Jays suck.

 

Berating dumb fans is fun.

[ElNik2013]

Depending on who the Jays draft today (and sign), it could make it easier for them to part with Sanchez and/or Norris.

[Jimcanuck]

Depending on who the Jays draft today (and sign), it could make it easier for them to part with Sanchez and/or Norris.

 

True but I hate this mentality. The attrition rate of prospects is so high, you need like 6 pitching prospects in order for 1 to make it.

[cusstown]

You missed my point. I'd be taking names of fans who want to make a massive playoff push with a trade(s) now by gutting the farm. And when the team is bad, because the farm is non-existent and the team is a couple years older on top of already being old, those same fans that wanted the push towards a veteran laden, expensive team are then complaining that the Jays suck.

 

Berating dumb fans is fun.

 

Suggesting we trade Bautista or Edwin this season is pretty dumb in itself don't you think? You're taking the position of the other extreme and it's frankly not a good idea.

[BigCecil]

You missed my point. I'd be taking names of fans who want to make a massive playoff push with a trade(s) now by gutting the farm. And when the team is bad, because the farm is non-existent and the team is a couple years older on top of already being old, those same fans that wanted the push towards a veteran laden, expensive team are then complaining that the Jays suck.

 

Berating dumb fans is fun.

 

Fair enough. I agree you cant have it both ways unless you have unlimited payroll and replenish @ MLB level the FA route.

[ElNik2013]

True but I hate this mentality. The attrition rate of prospects is so high, you need like 6 pitching prospects in order for 1 to make it.

 

 

I can agree with you, but let's face it, they've put themselves in a contending position with an aging core and they need another starter, ideally, a top 3 starter.

 

My hope is they find a guy young enough to be around for a few seasons.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Suggesting we trade Bautista or Edwin this season is pretty dumb in itself don't you think? You're taking the position of the other extreme and it's frankly not a good idea.

 

It all depends on who we received back in trade.

 

What if we got back an Oscar Taveras, Greg Polanco type player as one of the main pieces in a return with a couple other highly regarded prospects.

 

Plus the money saved off Edwin or Bautista next year could be put towards the next big thing coming out of Japan, Kenta Maeda for next year.

 

So essentially you'd be getting a guy to replace Bautista or Edwin for the next handful of years along with a couple other young pieces that have a chance to be/do something soon with the big club and have a young stud pitcher in Maeda to head the rotation for another....handful of years.

 

I don't trust Jose or Edwin continuing on as they are for the next handful of years.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Fair enough. I agree you cant have it both ways unless you have unlimited payroll and replenish @ MLB level the FA route.

 

I know there's people on here with that mentality.