McGowan plans to "ramp up slowly" and hopes to make the starting rotation

[G-Snarls]

Bluebird banter

[G-Snarls]

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2014/2/10/5329926/dustin-mcgowan-looking-for-rotation-spot-will-ramp-up-slowly-in

[Olerud363]

Bluebird banter

 

Why not.

[G-Snarls]

Why not.

 

Truth be told I was looking for an excuse for a McGowan thread. This so-so article was it.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

I really, really want McGowan to succeed. Love his attitude and was such a shame to see him get hurt. Just seems like a really cool dude. I won't hold my breath but he's shown glimpses in the past few years of still having something left in the tank.

[Anemic0ffense]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yc82_vtrpA4/SfUwG3ObpVI/AAAAAAAAaRo/qKJyJlbxXog/s400/broken20glass.gif

[G-Snarls]

I really, really want McGowan to succeed. Love his attitude and was such a shame to see him get hurt. Just seems like a really cool dude. I won't hold my breath but he's shown glimpses in the past few years of still having something left in the tank.

 

Agree 100%

 

160 quality IP for this guy would be the Jays story of the decade.

 

Also, however, not holding breath

[Abomination]

This is an interesting quote from their article with Redmond talking about the effects of the weighted ball program (saw it linked from the above article)

 

The 28-year-old right hander, who planned on starting to throw off a mound this week, said that over the winter he has already started feeling a difference in his arm after completing the weighted-ball exercises. He said that his arm has loosened up, and that it feels better than it felt in 2013, but he doesn’t know yet how it will feel when he gets deep into games, especially later into the season.

[G-Snarls]

This may just be the ultimate test of the weighted ball program

[eastcoastjaysfan]

Agree 100%

 

160 quality IP for this guy would be the Jays story of the decade.

 

Also, however, not holding breath

 

I think we'd all be satisfied with 100 innings of solid pitching from him at this point tbh.

 

Use strategic DL stints with him every few months to keep him fresh and to reassess the injury situation.

[Abomination]

This may just be the ultimate test of the weighted ball program

 

The Jays are taking a pretty big risk with the program, in that most of our prospects are pitchers and the program doesn't have a lot of data available as to the longer term effects. They must be extremely confident in it. I agree that guys like McGowan are the ultimate test. I wonder in a few years if we may see position players also use it?

[eastcoastjaysfan]

I still remember watching that start against Tampa where his stuff was god damn electric and he struck out 12 and http://i.imgur.com/OKJ2mHh.gif

 

That was 2007...sigh.

 

Almost 8 years ago.

 

Crazy when you think about it.

[G-Snarls]

Cecil ... injured. Elbow inflammation to end season, despite only being a reliever.

Delabar ... injured. Strained shoulder.

Janssen ... decreased velocity. Recovering from shoulder surgery, however.

Frasor ... quality season.

McGowan ... injured. Strained oblique muscle.

 

Yeah I'm not so sure this program is the panacea people had hoped for. Now obviously some players are going to get injured anyway, with or without. The questions are 1) does it result in better performance and 2) does it result in an increase or decrease in arm injuries. The jury is still out.

[G-Snarls]

If McGowan kicks ass in ST and looks like he has the gas to go 6+ innings every 5th day, why not? As long as we have say Happ as swing man to step it it would be a risk worth taking. I mean if he looks THAT good.

[Abomination]

Cecil ... injured. Elbow inflammation to end season, despite only being a reliever.

Delabar ... injured. Strained shoulder.

Janssen ... decreased velocity. Recovering from shoulder surgery, however.

Frasor ... quality season.

McGowan ... injured. Strained oblique muscle.

 

Not quite sure the point you're trying to make here overall, since a strained oblique has nothing to do with the program and I believe Janssen didn't start using the program until mid season (after which point it seemed to help him). I don't recall if Frasor was on it or not. Cecil and Delabar were the two interesting cases, but neither injury should be a concern and they were pretty heavily used due to our putrid starting pitching.

[Abomination]

If McGowan kicks ass in ST and looks like he has the gas to go 6+ innings every 5th day, why not? As long as we have say Happ as swing man to step it it would be a risk worth taking. I mean if he looks THAT good.

 

If McGowan can step into the rotation early, it would be an excellent scenario. I don't think anyone expects him to be able to throw 150 innings after being off so long, so get 2 or 3 months with him in the rotation, then move him to the pen and let Stroman take over. Things never seem to go that well for us though lol.

[G-Snarls]

If McGowan can step into the rotation early, it would be an excellent scenario. I don't think anyone expects him to be able to throw 150 innings after being off so long, so get 2 or 3 months with him in the rotation, then move him to the pen and let Stroman take over. Things never seem to go that well for us though lol.

 

That sounds like a dream scenario for both guys and for us fans.

 

Therefore you're right - no way it happens. LOL

[Convo]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JRj9PmoUohI/UGHIT3vrv5I/AAAAAAAAS-0/IRotJCElCoE/s1600/mr-glass-samuel-l-jackson-unbreakable.jpeg

[G-Snarls]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JRj9PmoUohI/UGHIT3vrv5I/AAAAAAAAS-0/IRotJCElCoE/s1600/mr-glass-samuel-l-jackson-unbreakable.jpeg

 

"They called me Mr. Glass" indeed

[KingKat]

Almost 8 years ago.

 

Crazy when you think about it.

 

Crazy but important to remember. Sometimes people talk as if he still has the upside now that he had then. He really doesn't. Not only is it hard to expect health from him but at this point but there's no real reason to expect above average performance either.

[The_DH]

I really, really want McGowan to succeed. Love his attitude and was such a shame to see him get hurt. Just seems like a really cool dude. I won't hold my breath but he's shown glimpses in the past few years of still having something left in the tank.

 

Gotta agree. He's one player I will cross my fingers for. He had electricity in that arm.

[Muck Bartinez]

Crazy but important to remember. Sometimes people talk as if he still has the upside now that he had then. He really doesn't. Not only is it hard to expect health from him but at this point but there's no real reason to expect above average performance either.

 

FWIW his fastball velocity was the same this season as it was in 2007 (94.7). Obviously that could be because of relieving instead of starting, but it does show he can still throw as hard as he could before. It's also interesting to note that his slider was 50% better per 100 pitches than it was before. SSS and relieving and glass girl and everything else, but IMO to say he has no upside is false, unless you believed he never had any in the first place.

[G-Snarls]

His slider is killer. Especially if he can throw it reliably while hitting spots with a 95MPH fastball.

[Caper]

This may just be the ultimate test of the weighted ball program

 

Tracy McGrady needs the weighted ball program.

[KingKat]

FWIW his fastball velocity was the same this season as it was in 2007 (94.7). Obviously that could be because of relieving instead of starting, but it does show he can still throw as hard as he could before. It's also interesting to note that his slider was 50% better per 100 pitches than it was before. SSS and relieving and glass girl and everything else, but IMO to say he has no upside is false, unless you believed he never had any in the first place.

 

Well his upside may have been overstated but I would never go so far as to say he never had any. Those numbers you quote are interesting because they help to clarify why the Jays are still invested in him. I guess he still has stuff and in a weird way may hot have aged in quite the way an uninjured player might have (which frankly surprises me a lot).

[Abomination]

A strained oblique can most certainly have everything to do with the program. Or nothing at all. Using a weighted anything can result in your mechanics going out of whack (and is a known and oft-repeated criticism of such programs), and therefore put direct strain on various body parts, like your oblique; or indirect strain as you compensate for other issues and other body parts take the brunt of this compensation. Also, specific exercises themselves can result in overexertion. The oblique is very critical in the throwing motion. It is effected by and during the weighted ball program. Was it directly the cause here? No clue. Just listing out the various results and negative things that happened from the few who were known to have utilized it.

 

Janssen started using the program in the offseason, not midseason. He didn't use the full program, however, because his overall progress was delayed by the surgery and rehab.

 

Frasor was on it, which is why I listed him.

 

Neither Cecil nor Delabar were abused last year, because of the 8 man pen. Cecil was tied for 98th in Appearances, and while that total was limited by his injuries (he also had a sore shoulder before the elbow issue), he still wasn't even top 20 in Appearances or Relief Innings Pitched at the time of the injury. The same general sentiment for Delabar. They were relied on, and they did work, but they weren't treated like rented mules who should be expected to break down just from overuse.

 

The strained oblique argument being attributable to the weighted ball program is paper thin, and basically unsupportable.

 

Janssen started a modified version of the program in April of last year (thought it was later), not the offseason. Regardless, it had nothing to do with the lower velocity early as he had that coming out of the spring (probably the reason he gave the program a try).

 

Cecil and Delabar were both heavily used just prior to the injuries if I recall correctly. I know there was one point where it was said that they were completely gassed. It's not all about bulk sums. Certainly there were other guys in the league abused worse, but that's not the point. Regardless, neither injury was anything concerning. Perhaps without the program the injury doesn't happen, or perhaps it's much worse. No way to tell on that. Those two are the only points that I consider to have any merit at all.

[jays4life19]

His slider is killer. Especially if he can throw it reliably while hitting spots with a 95MPH fastball.

 

I remember the look on Miguel Cabrera face when Dustin struck him out with the slider. Kinda like "who the f*** are you and where did you come from" kinda look. Nasty pitch.

[Muck Bartinez]

Well his upside may have been overstated but I would never go so far as to say he never had any. Those numbers you quote are interesting because they help to clarify why the Jays are still invested in him. I guess he still has stuff and in a weird way may hot have aged in quite the way an uninjured player might have (which frankly surprises me a lot).

 

I would say that he definitely hasn't aged the way a typical pitcher would, simply because he hasn't thrown the pitches that an uninjured player would. That being said, it's almost certain he has lost some velocity on his pitches since all pitchers do by the time they hit 28. It doesn't mean he doesn't have upside, but there's no way he has the same upside as he did 7 years ago.

[Abomination]

However, if you're trying to say that a weighted ball program couldn't cause such an injury, that's just really, really dumb.

 

No, I'm saying that there's absolutely no way to determine that it was without a HUGE body of evidence. Common sense suggests it's highly unlikely though. I'm concerned with the part relating to the arm, because that is what the program is targeting - and the part with the biggest implications for a pitcher.

 

 

You're looking to explain all this away. I'm not looking for attribution or a lack of attribution at all.

 

I'm not looking to do that at all, but rather trying to reasonably narrow the focus. Cecil and Delabar are legit questions that need to be explored further to see if there is causality. Janssen had the lowered velocity prior to starting the program, and said several times during the season that he could feel the difference with how his arm felt after using the program for a while. He was excited to see the results of what a full offseason on it would produce.

 

My original response was just wondering what point you were trying to make, since the subjects were disconnected and no explanation was given for the presentation. Regardless, this is way off the original point which was that the club must be very confident in the program to roll it out organization wide with very little available information about the effects. Whether one or two of those guys are or aren't included doesn't change that.

[saskjayfan]

Common sense (i.e., a basic understanding of physiology, generally, and as it pertains to the pitching motion, specifically) suggests nothing of the sort. You're talking out your rear. Weighted throwing, and rotational movements, generally, put an enormous burden on, oddly enough, muscles integral in stabilizing and rotating the upper body. Those muscles? The obliques. Let it go. It is not arguable. Overloading the arm results in overburdening the rotational muscles which take the brunt of the body's attempt to compensate, often get overloaded as mechanics get out of whack, and can simply be overburdened by the workload itself (without compensating for other issues).

 

It's not a strained toe, whose potential connection would be paper thin. It's a vital and oft-injured muscle group in the rotational fun that is pitching.

 

 

 

 

And McGowan. And Janssen.

 

 

 

Personal thoughts mean nada. How he "feels" about it can greatly differ as to how it actually effects his body.

 

And, actually, his initial velo was not that atypical ... at least compared to the prior year, he had one outing where it was down, and another where it was the same as the previous year. The previous year, however, he built velo as the year wore on, as many pitchers are apt to do (not in a straight line, as there are ebbs and flows). Last year, he had a gradual uptick, but then plummeted. Twice. After being on the program.

 

 

 

What subjects were disconnected? I listed all known MLB pitchers using the program, and results last year. We know how the Jays pitchers performed. And I highlighted any (potential) health issues, as well. It was all perfectly relevant and connected.

 

 

 

And if there's one thing we've learned, it's to trust the judgment of this organization.

 

I assume you are both doctors, because if you're not, this is a rather useless discussion.