Alex Anthopoulos Vs JP Ricciardi: 2013 edition

[kgm1]

I have absolved AA of some of the blame . I can't believe he went 180 degrees without pressure from above . Rogers needed the splash for sportsnet. He still made the deals so bears some responsibiiity . Had the team been healthy we might be looking at it totally different .JJ and Morrow pitch to expectations and Reyes is there all year and what is the outcome .

[jaysblue]

I have absolved AA of some of the blame . I can't believe he went 180 degrees without pressure from above . Rogers needed the splash for sportsnet. He still made the deals so bears some responsibiiity . Had the team been healthy we might be looking at it totally different .JJ and Morrow pitch to expectations and Reyes is there all year and what is the outcome .

 

A healthy JJ and Morrow go along way in making the rotation better. I don't believe JJ is this bad of a pitcher and I do hope the Jays resign him to a cheap contract + incentives. I'm excited to see what Reyes can do over a full season as well. I'm sure if everything panned out this season and the Jays won 90 games, and played meaningful games in September, everyone would be praising AA.

 

Right now however there is no turning back. The Jays window to contend is 2014-2015 after AA went all in last offseason, so they better try and field the best team they could and make the playoffs or else AA's job is on the line. Where this team is lined up now, there is no point in rebuilding or signing guys with huge question marks and hope they pan out. They need to make another significant move or two this offseason to improve this club.

[o2cui2i]

If Beeston had any say or push on Alex in on field moves, I absolve Alex of a large chunk of the blame.

 

A non-baseball friendly President needs to set his priorities straight and worry about Bobble head promo days & Jr. Jays kids running the bases.

 

If he wants to impose his non-baseball mind on the GM, then he should come out and say, "we're changing our team direction to be just like the Phills & Angels, because we have a muppet fanbase and I'm trying to sell tiketz."

 

doing it from behind the scenes Beeston can come out later and blame AA and just fire him to save his own ass. saying he was behind it would require balls and he doesn't have any.

[o2cui2i]

A healthy JJ and Morrow go along way in making the rotation better. I don't believe JJ is this bad of a pitcher and I do hope the Jays resign him to a cheap contract + incentives. I'm excited to see what Reyes can do over a full season as well. I'm sure if everything panned out this season and the Jays won 90 games, and played meaningful games in September, everyone would be praising AA.

 

Right now however there is no turning back. The Jays window to contend is 2014-2015 after AA went all in last offseason, so they better try and field the best team they could and make the playoffs or else AA's job is on the line. Where this team is lined up now, there is no point in rebuilding or signing guys with huge question marks and hope they pan out. They need to make another significant move or two this offseason to improve this club.

 

as it stands, the jays have 6 or 7 number five starters, but no 1 or two. Dickey, MB as 3 4 is great but they need 2 top line starters. they also need a catcher who doesn't have his head up his ass on both sides of the ball. add a first base/ bat guy and a second baseman... the list is more than 2 trades away.

[Angrioter]

You can change your vote

[GD]

This was when I wasn't posting but I remember saying JPR > AA in some other thread in the summer. I'll take JPR.

[TwistedLogic]

Add me to the list under Alex, this thread is ridiculous lol.

[GD]

You weren't posting in October?

 

oh wait I misread the date lol. Thought it said 08/10 rather than 10/08.

 

Regardless. JPR.

[Terminator]

Just think about where AA would be without Bautista and EE. They might have lost 100 games this year and AA would easily be out of a job.

 

The only good, cost-effective player AA has acquired in four (!) seasons is Rasmus (and maybe Yunel, but look at how that worked out). And he's only had one good year with the Blue Jays.

 

Well when JP's team were floating above the 80 win mark you could say the same about JP inheriting Halladay.

[TwistedLogic]

JP Ricciardi is the guy that signed the BJ Ryan and Vernon Wells contracts, the guy who left AA the rank 28 farm system in baseball and the guy that fielded teams that were legitimately mediocre for several years.

 

AA took that farm system and made it top 3 within two years, absolutely pimping the draft system. He acquired Rasmus, Escobar, Lawrie, Morrow, Santos and Delabar for pennies on the dollar, and has probably made one of the greatest series of contract extensions we've ever seen. Both of his last two teams have remained competitive until midway through the season until the sheer mind-f***ingly stupid amount of bad luck has caught up to them.

 

I completely understand being upset with AA but the amount of blind, irrational hate for him on this board is getting ridiculous.

[KingKat]

AA didn't ineherit EE. That contract had run out. He signed him as a free agent. Easily the best free agent signing of his tenure, maybe best move period.

[TwistedLogic]

Exactly. AA retained EE when the moronic internet fanbase was rioting for him to DFA him.

 

Rasmus is far from his only significant trade acquisition as well. As I said, he also acquired Lawrie, Morrow, Escobar, Santos and Delabar beyond Rasmus, and none of them cost anything.

[KingKat]

Exactly. AA retained EE when the moronic internet fanbase was rioting for him to DFA him.

 

Rasmus is far from his only significant trade acquisition as well. As I said, he also acquired Lawrie, Morrow, Escobar, Santos and Delabar beyond Rasmus, and none of them cost anything.

 

Well he did DFA him in June of 2010 actually but no one picked him up. He then was picked up on waivers in the off-season by the Athletics who later non-tendered him making him a free agent. That's when AA signed him for a fraction of what he was making before with a club option and eventually an extension.

[TwistedLogic]

AAs building up of the draft was great but then he threw it all away by trading the players he drafted for old, expensive veterans. I think he should have traded them away for young, controllable talent. As a fan of the team, I also have a concern about Beestons "TRACK TEAM!!!! TICKET SALES!!!!!" philosophy.

 

He did. Lawrie, Rasmus, Santos, Delabar, Escobar, they were all young and controllable, especially with his extensions. Show me a list of the GMs that would have said no to the Marlins trade. We can s*** on it as much as we want in retrospect, but acting like that was a bad move at the time is nuts. That was Reyes and Johnson. It looks terrible now because Johnson amounted to nothing and Reyes suffered a freak injury, but you can't pin that on AA.

 

We have no idea how much influence Beeston and Rogers have had on AA since the Marlins trade and whether or not he was told to make or not make the moves that succeeded it. What we know is that this organization as a whole is still in massively better shape than JP's Blue Jays were ever at any time.

 

Again as I said, there is a lot of criticism and distaste towards AA that is completely justified right now, but pushing that to such an extreme as saying JPR was a better GM or did better for this team than AA, pardon my French, is just f***ing stupid.

 

If AA gets fired right now, his successor will inherit a far superior organization than the one AA did.

[TwistedLogic]

How will AA do without a stockpiling draft picks system that he picked apart? 2013 was a very questionable draft year...

 

Btw, how much of the drafting is AA involved in and how much of it is scouting team/director?

 

It doesn't matter. Every GM that people can't stop sucking off gets full credit for his drafts, AA should be treated the same. Especially because AA is the one that put together that entire scouting department.

 

Last year was a questionable draft until he signed Brentz and Tellez. Those signings made it one of the better drafts in the majors, especially with the pick that we punted to 2014, the better draft.

 

Well he did DFA him in June of 2010 actually but no one picked him up. He then was picked up on waivers in the off-season by the Athletics who later non-tendered him making him a free agent. That's when AA signed him for a fraction of what he was making before with a club option and eventually an extension.

 

My comment about his retention of EE was when everyone wanted him DFA'd the second time.

[TwistedLogic]

Beeston had a huge influence on the Marlins trade, AA was going to cancel it and then Beeston called him crazy etc. It's been confirmed.

 

As far as I know that is completely incorrect. AA never said he was going to cancel the deal. After the trade was completed, AA told Beeston that he almost dropped the deal when it came to the Mathis segment of it, and Beeston at that point said he would have been crazy, and Beeston himself would have been pissed had that happened.

 

None of us have to think like a human when it comes to these things, but when you read about why Anthopoulos didn't want to let go of Mathis, and you get the words coming from him, you understand that any decent human would have had the exact same reservations and hesitations.

[Anemic0ffense]

He did. Lawrie, Rasmus, Santos, Delabar, Escobar, they were all young and controllable, especially with his extensions. Show me a list of the GMs that would have said no to the Marlins trade. We can s*** on it as much as we want in retrospect, but acting like that was a bad move at the time is nuts. That was Reyes and Johnson. It looks terrible now because Johnson amounted to nothing and Reyes suffered a freak injury, but you can't pin that on AA.

 

We have no idea how much influence Beeston and Rogers have had on AA since the Marlins trade and whether or not he was told to make or not make the moves that succeeded it. What we know is that this organization as a whole is still in massively better shape than JP's Blue Jays were ever at any time.

 

Again as I said, there is a lot of criticism and distaste towards AA that is completely justified right now, but pushing that to such an extreme as saying JPR was a better GM or did better for this team than AA, pardon my French, is just f***ing stupid.

 

If AA gets fired right now, his successor will inherit a far superior organization than the one AA did.

 

I agree 100%. No way I'd go back to the "Retardi years". The farm under him was a barren wasteland. I still believe AA is a decent GM (middle of the pack, perhaps better if the ones above him weren't whispering in his ear).

[Abomination]

I agree 100%. No way I'd go back to the "Retardi years". The farm under him was a barren wasteland. I still believe AA is a decent GM (middle of the pack, perhaps better if the ones above him weren't whispering in his ear).

 

I like that AA seems to adapt. JPR seemed very fixed in his strategy, and seemed to have no real idea how to modify it when it didn't work.

[TwistedLogic]

No, the deal was off.

 

Your point is still incorrect. Even if the deal was temporarily off, it never so much as reached Beeston's ears. Beeston found out about it later.

[xposbrad]

JP made us suck for 1/2 the payroll. So, by default he was less crappy.

[TwistedLogic]

I have a very, very hard time believing that Beeston didn't hear about this deal until it was completed. He's the guy who 100% handled the Farrell to Boston trade. I would post some proof but I have to wait until I get home.

 

That is not what I said. Beeston knew about the deal, but he did not know that the deal was ever "off". He never heard that the deal received a hiccup and was almost shut down because of Jeff Mathis/John Buck, until after the deal was completed.

 

You don't need to wait till you get home, I just snap-shotted the proof myself:

 

http://gyazo.com/fd9ae3e5a4c52d6484748352668a78f2.png

 

http://gyazo.com/9a040abbab5f4196108d3dbe2f797dbb.png

 

http://gyazo.com/cc9da4b8cb9a9bdafafaf50cd6afb1ef.png

 

"Beeston says he would have hit the roof had he known"

[TwistedLogic]

That is what I was referring to.. You are reaching real hard right now for an argument. This is pointless either way

 

I don't understand what you mean? Reaching for an argument?

 

You said that the deal was off and Beeston is the one that got them to revisit it and complete the deal. All I've said is that isn't true, and it isn't. Anthopoulos arranged the deal, Anthopoulos agreed to the terms, Anthopoulos temporarily decided to call it off because he felt like he was betraying Jeff Mathis, and Anthopoulos himself went back and completed the deal. Beeston had nothing to do with that trade other than arranging for it to be approved by Nadir and Pelley.

[TwistedLogic]

AA: I'm going to kill the deal because I don't want John Buck

Beeston: You can't kill the deal for John Buck, we are getting Reyes back etc.

 

AA *picks up phone, accepts deal while Beeston anxiously waits for updates*

 

?????

 

Did you not read the first paragraph? Go back to my post, I edited out the quote and colored it red at the bottom of the post.

 

"They were right. Beeston says he would have hit the roof had he known"

 

Everything Beeston is saying is a narration to Davidi, after the trade happened. It is clearly outlined that Beeston never heard about the deal being off until it was completed.

 

At the time of the trade, it was Tinnish, etc reminding AA that Beeston would be pissed, and Beeston later on confirming essentially, "yes I would have been pissed, you can't kill the deal for John Buck".

[TwistedLogic]

Okay you are right I think. Wording had me confused, my bad.

 

Yeah, the way they write a lot of the stuff in this book is in a somewhat confusing manner and could stand to be more clear.

 

Btw, catch the money quote by Beeston: "We're selling entertainment, that's what it's all about"

 

And people think AA is the problem here.

[bronson44]

I would just like to remind everyone calling for AA to be fired that this guy is the one who would most likely be hiring his replacement.

[TwistedLogic]

Beeston's "selling entertainment" mentality is the exact kind of philosophy I could see tying AA's hands and forcing him into trades like the Dickey one. Dickey was a once domestically abused baseball anomaly coming off a Cy Young season, you couldn't create a more marketable, media-friendly story and I wouldn't be surprised at all to one day find out that it was Beeston and co. that told Alex to make that trade. Prospects don't sell jerseys, prospects don't write books and prospects don't get long press conferences in front of the national sports media where they get to display their wide range of vocabulary.

 

Seeing AA taking his merry f***ing time on acquiring a pitcher in this market, for prospects that are lesser than what he gave for Dickey, makes me think that he wasn't the only one behind that trade.

[TwistedLogic]

^AA id weak then. Today under the beast tommorrow under someone else always being influenced

 

Beeston is his boss you troglodyte moron.

[TwistedLogic]

AA is paid to be the GM. If Beaston wanted him to make moves he wasnt comfortable with he should have held his ground.

 

Alex Anthopoulos is the Vice President and General Manager of the Toronto Blue Jays.

Paul Beeston is the President of the Toronto Blue Jays.

 

Paul Beeston is his boss. If Paul Beeston or Rogers want Anthopoulos to do something, it is his job to do it.

 

The day you wake up you might realize that's how jobs in the real world work.

 

There are countless accounts of presidents and owners having a huge hand in what happens with the team. Kasten and Johnson have a massive influence in what the Dodgers do, Beinfest and Loria have a massive influence on what the Marlins do and Moreno has a massive influence in what the Angels do. The Tigers never would have signed Prince Fielder if Illitch himself didn't tell them that he wanted him.

 

It is not a sign of weakness to do your job. Friedman can't just say "f*** your budget, Sternberg" and trade for Alex Rodriguez because he's GM.

[Abomination]

It is not a sign of weakness to do your job. Friedman can't just say "f*** your budget, Sternberg" and trade for Alex Rodriguez because he's GM.

 

Man, can you imagine what BTS' reaction would be if THAT happened?

[TwistedLogic]

Just look at the quotes above, Anthopoulos implies that the entire negotiations around the Marlins deal were communicated to Larry Beinfest. Has anyone here ever heard the name Michael Hill? No? He's the GM of the Miami Marlins.

 

Man, can you imagine what BTS' reaction would be if THAT happened?

 

http://i.imgur.com/py2PxcN.gif

 

I would pay to see that.