Sound Familiar?

[GeorgiaPeach]

Epstein, in the extensive news release, insisted the overhaul is on target.

 

"Soon, our organization will transition from a phase in which we have been primarily acquiring young talent to a phase in which we will promote many of our best prospects and actually field a very young, very talented club at the major league level," he said. "The losing has been hard on all of us, but we now have one of the top farm systems in baseball, some of the very best prospects in the game, and a clear path forward.

 

"In order for us to win with this group -- and win consistently -- we must have the best possible environment for young players to learn, develop and thrive at the major league level."

 

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/9748610/chicago-cubs-fire-manager-dale-sveum-two-years

 

 

I guess we'll see if Theo sells out.

[G-Snarls]

Yep. This could have been the Blue Jays.

[z3r0s]

Yep. This could have been the Blue Jays.

 

The Jays didn't have the type of impact position players in their farm like Baez, Soler, Almora, Bryant, and Alcantara. But yes it does make you sad that we gutted ourselves before seeing the benefits of the farm.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I think about this rebuilding -> contention process a lot. It very rarely works out as cleanly as people think. Prospects bust, pitchers get hurt, acquiring a supporting cast is difficult, etc.

 

The Astros, Cubs, Twins and Marlins all think they'll contend in 2016. At least two of those teams will suffer developmental setbacks that lead to new regimes in charge. One or two will have to enter another rebuilding phase.

 

It would be naïve to believe teams could always contend solely around prospects. But adding solid players into the mix under reasonable contracts, and I don't see how it wouldn't lead to having constant competitive teams with a chance to contend pretty much all the time.

[G-Snarls]

I think about this rebuilding -> contention process a lot. It very rarely works out as cleanly as people think. Prospects bust, pitchers get hurt, acquiring a supporting cast is difficult, etc.

 

The Astros, Cubs, Twins and Marlins all think they'll contend in 2016. At least two of those teams will suffer developmental setbacks that lead to new regimes in charge. One or two will have to enter another rebuilding phase.

 

Good points. This team was headed this way when they traded away Doc and Vernon. If they had stayed the course, would it have worked out by now/2014/2105? No idea. All we do know is that after changing plans/accelerating the build up, 2013 was an unmitigated disaster.

[leaffie]

Good points. This team was headed this way when they traded away Doc and Vernon. If they had stayed the course, would it have worked out by now/2014/2105? No idea. All we do know is that after changing plans/accelerating the build up, 2013 was an unmitigated disaster.

 

Not debating the worth of the trade, but would this team's attendance continue to spiral down if nothing was done, after the disaster that was 2012. Could the Jays maintain any momentum with the new fans without no sign of improvement before 2015 or beyond.

[G-Snarls]

Not debating the worth of the trade, but would this team's attendance continue to spiral down if nothing was done, after the disaster that was 2012. Could the Jays maintain any momentum with the new fans without no sign of improvement before 2015 or beyond.

 

Excellent question as well

[jaysblue]

As much as the Marlins trade gets bashed on here, it did bring excitement around baseball in this city. I never recalled the Blue Jays being talked about so much over the winter and leading into spring training. That resulted in an increase in ticket sales, flex pack sales, season ticket sales, merchandise etc. Most weekend games early on and in the summer were getting close to 40,000 and even weeknight games were getting good attendance numbers. I guess from a business standpoint, this season was a success.

 

Not saying I agree with the trade or AA's plan, though now since the Jays went all in, especially after the Marlins deal with the Dickey trade (which I absolutely hated, even with the Marlins deal made), the Jays need to field a contending team in 2014 and 2015 in order to ensure the strong fan base returns. That's why the window to contend is over these next two years - since players like EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey etc are all under contract and likely won't begin a significant decline for another 2-3 more years. If the Jays don't play meaningful games at this time next season, or struggle right at the start again, this organization will be in a huge mess, both on and off the field.

[GD]

It was really fun being optimistic.

[leaffie]

As much as the Marlins trade gets bashed on here, it did bring excitement around baseball in this city. I never recalled the Blue Jays being talked about so much over the winter and leading into spring training. That resulted in an increase in ticket sales, flex pack sales, season ticket sales, merchandise etc. Most weekend games early on and in the summer were getting close to 40,000 and even weeknight games were getting good attendance numbers. I guess from a business standpoint, this season was a success.

 

Not saying I agree with the trade or AA's plan, though now since the Jays went all in, especially after the Marlins deal with the Dickey trade (which I absolutely hated, even with the Marlins deal made), the Jays need to field a contending team in 2014 and 2015 in order to ensure the strong fan base returns. That's why the window to contend is over these next two years - since players like EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey etc are all under contract and likely won't begin a significant decline for another 2-3 more years. If the Jays don't play meaningful games at this time next season, or struggle right at the start again, this organization will be in a huge mess, both on and off the field.

 

 

And I am quite sure Rogers has seen the jump in dollars in every aspect, from attendance to advertising rates. I doubt they will let this go backwards now.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Not debating the worth of the trade, but would this team's attendance continue to spiral down if nothing was done, after the disaster that was 2012. Could the Jays maintain any momentum with the new fans without no sign of improvement before 2015 or beyond.

 

It really is sad how out of touch fans are with the big picture.

[ElNik2013]

As much as the Marlins trade gets bashed on here, it did bring excitement around baseball in this city. I never recalled the Blue Jays being talked about so much over the winter and leading into spring training. That resulted in an increase in ticket sales, flex pack sales, season ticket sales, merchandise etc. Most weekend games early on and in the summer were getting close to 40,000 and even weeknight games were getting good attendance numbers. I guess from a business standpoint, this season was a success.

 

Not saying I agree with the trade or AA's plan, though now since the Jays went all in, especially after the Marlins deal with the Dickey trade (which I absolutely hated, even with the Marlins deal made), the Jays need to field a contending team in 2014 and 2015 in order to ensure the strong fan base returns. That's why the window to contend is over these next two years - since players like EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey etc are all under contract and likely won't begin a significant decline for another 2-3 more years. If the Jays don't play meaningful games at this time next season, or struggle right at the start again, this organization will be in a huge mess, both on and off the field.

 

 

If they struggle in the first half, I expect them to start trading assets for prospects, starting with Bautista and EE. If they're both healthy, they could fetch a nice return. Maybe eat some salary on Reyes and Dickey and someone may give you a couple of prospects. Remember, they'll have 2 picks in the top 11 and you add the young starting pitching depth and depending on what they get in return for the vets they trade, they could be ready to contend by 2025.

[TheHurl]

I think about this rebuilding -> contention process a lot. It very rarely works out as cleanly as people think. Prospects bust, pitchers get hurt, acquiring a supporting cast is difficult, etc.

 

The Astros, Cubs, Twins and Marlins all think they'll contend in 2016. At least two of those teams will suffer developmental setbacks that lead to new regimes in charge. One or two will have to enter another rebuilding phase.

 

Depth wins in baseball.

 

As for Theo, I was always a fan, I would love to know how much of the decision making was his and how much was ownership. Cubs will be a good team they don't have payroll constraints, they don't have really bad contracts and while I could see them acquiring one or two I don't think they will go too overboard. Only thing is that I don't see the Reds, Pirates or Cards going away any time soon.

[TheHurl]

If they struggle in the first half, I expect them to start trading assets for prospects, starting with Bautista and EE. If they're both healthy, they could fetch a nice return. Maybe eat some salary on Reyes and Dickey and someone may give you a couple of prospects. Remember, they'll have 2 picks in the top 11 and you add the young starting pitching depth and depending on what they get in return for the vets they trade, they could be ready to contend by 2025.

 

This current F.O. can't/shouldn't be the ones to rebuild. They have to win or be gone...then let someone new come in and play the PR game on a rebuild. Selling a rebuild to a fanbase is much easier when you can play it off as cleaning up someone else's mess.

[leaffie]

It really is sad how out of touch fans are with the big picture.

 

Well since you seen to be intimating that I am out of touch, perhaps you could enlighten me. I know exactly what the big picture is, but since your dream is for this team to be a self sustaining entity with a never ending supply of top prospects, that never get injured, and always work out exactly when needed, maybe it is you that can't seem to understand the big picture.

 

This is a business, and as such, it's main purpose is to make money for Rogers and it's shareholders. As bad as this year was, they took a chance, and it has paid off at the bank. I can't help it if you want a team like the Rays, supported with the payroll of $120 million, with one of the best farm teams. That is not what the Jays are, nor would it have been that way for at least another 3-4 years, if ever. They draft too high, in case you haven't noticed.

 

And as far as the Rays are concerned, they are having their own set of problems, and that ten years of top prospects and number 1 picks, have made their way to the top, and then what?

[FireAlexAnthopoulos]

This is a business, and as such, it's main purpose is to make money for Rogers and it's shareholders.

That viewpoint is why the Blue Jays are a joke of a franchise. If they were actually serious about winning, then winning would be the main purpose, and then the money and fans would consistently be there as a result.

[leaffie]

That viewpoint is why the Blue Jays are a joke of a franchise. If they were actually serious about winning, then winning would be the main purpose, and then the money and fans would consistently be there as a result.

 

They are a business first. You may not like it, but it is the truth. If they can combine both things, then all the better, but until Mark Cuban comes along and buys the team, you either accept it, or get another team. The angels went all in, and had no more success than the Jays. Are they a joke too?

[Angrioter]

Epstein, in the extensive news release, insisted the overhaul is on target.

 

"Soon, our organization will transition from a phase in which we have been primarily acquiring young talent to a phase in which we will promote many of our best prospects and actually field a very young, very talented club at the major league level," he said. "The losing has been hard on all of us, but we now have one of the top farm systems in baseball, some of the very best prospects in the game, and a clear path forward.

 

"In order for us to win with this group -- and win consistently -- we must have the best possible environment for young players to learn, develop and thrive at the major league level."

 

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/9748610/chicago-cubs-fire-manager-dale-sveum-two-years

 

 

I guess we'll see if Theo sells out.

 

Before 2012 we looked like the new Cubs, now we're the new Phillies.

[G-Snarls]

All this said, the Cubs are not a good team and have a payroll ~ 110MM. With 10 guys due for arbitration raises.

 

That's not a great place to to be re building from

 

Though I guess not a lot of players are signed long term so there's some flexibility

[GeorgiaPeach]

Leaffie, my post wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the point you made and how fans would've reacted to a s***** 2012, with a Top 5'ish farm still intact.

 

Meaning the average fan sees what happens on the field for the big club, but has little idea about anything beyond that.

[ElNik2013]

This current F.O. can't/shouldn't be the ones to rebuild. They have to win or be gone...then let someone new come in and play the PR game on a rebuild. Selling a rebuild to a fanbase is much easier when you can play it off as cleaning up someone else's mess.

 

 

I don't think this F/O would survive May if they tank again, at least I hope Rogers is awake enough to notice what's going on. I just really think that they should start shopping players in Jul.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I don't think this F/O would survive May if they tank again, at least I hope Rogers is awake enough to notice what's going on. I just really think that they should start shopping players in Jul.

 

I still wanna know what changed with Alex? Targeting strength up the middle, youth, defence, pitching.....ramming team friendly deals down players throats, stockpiling comp' picks......creative moves (Olivo trade), value trades.......

 

Now.....trade everything for old players who were intended to provide stability and immediate excitement. Not one creative small trade or move. It seems like since money has been made available Alex has become lazy in digging for value

 

It's funny because the Jays are what the fans were ridiculing the Yanks & Sox as not long ago. Old, expensive, mediocre farm teams.

[leaffie]

Leaffie, my post wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the point you made and how fans would've reacted to a s***** 2012, with a Top 5'ish farm still intact.

 

Meaning the average fan sees what happens on the field for the big club, but has little idea about anything beyond that.

 

My apologies. Sometimes it is difficult to get the point, on these boards.

[Nox]

And as far as the Rays are concerned, they are having their own set of problems, and that ten years of top prospects and number 1 picks, have made their way to the top, and then what?

 

A complete ******** narrative, one that uneducated fans tend to spout quite often on here. If you think this is why the Rays are where they are, you're as lost in a fog as any poster on this board. If you want to be taken half seriously, don't say stupid things that any idiot can falsify with about a minute of Googling.

 

The Friedman regime has had 2 #1 pick. David Price, Beckham not 10.

 

And you are out of touch. Sure attendance was up in the first half of the season but where does it project to be in the first half of next season? Undoubtedly down. Significantly so. Lets not pretend that's not a huge concern from a pure business standpoint.

[leaffie]

I still wanna know what changed with Alex? Targeting strength up the middle, youth, defence, pitching.....ramming team friendly deals down players throats, stockpiling comp' picks......creative moves (Olivo trade), value trades.......

 

Now.....trade everything for old players who were intended to provide stability and immediate excitement. Not one creative small trade or move. It seems like since money has been made available Alex has become lazy in digging for value

 

It's funny because the Jays are what the fans were ridiculing the Yanks & Sox as not long ago. Old, expensive, mediocre farm teams.

 

I think it came about by accident, if that is possible in baseball. The Al east looked like it was wide open with the Sox/Yankees floundering. The pressure was starting to build with more fans coming back to the park and expectations rising. Then there was the additional money that every team will be getting this year. Plus, AA had a chance to get Reyes, that he has always coveted, and the trade grew from there. I actually didn't have a problem with the Marlins trade. It was the Dickey trade that I really disliked. Not because I didn't want to give up D'Arnaud (I think he will be less than stellar), but because they gave him up for what I considered a pitcher that was not going to be our Ace. I would have given away all three of our stud pitching prospects, to get a true Ace, that was young and healthy. This club is really not that far away. Just my take.

[ElNik2013]

I still wanna know what changed with Alex? Targeting strength up the middle, youth, defence, pitching.....ramming team friendly deals down players throats, stockpiling comp' picks......creative moves (Olivo trade), value trades.......

 

Now.....trade everything for old players who were intended to provide stability and immediate excitement. Not one creative small trade or move. It seems like since money has been made available Alex has become lazy in digging for value

 

It's funny because the Jays are what the fans were ridiculing the Yanks & Sox as not long ago. Old, expensive, mediocre farm teams.

 

 

I'd like to know too, but what's done is done. It seems starting with the Happ trade, it's one overpay after the other and for older, more expensive players to boot. One of the reasons I started to get excited about the Jays was because of what you mentioned; getting guys like Rasmus, Escobar, Morrow, Lawrie, building up the farm, and then, complete u-turn. There's gotta be more to it than meets the eye. I think it'll only come out after he's fired.

[leaffie]

A complete ******** narrative, one that uneducated fans tend to spout quite often on here. If you think this is why the Rays are where they are, you're as lost in a fog as any poster on this board. If you want to be taken half seriously, don't say stupid things that any idiot can falsify with about a minute of Googling.

 

The Friedman regime has had 2 #1 pick. David Price, Beckham not 10.

 

And you are out of touch. Sure attendance was up in the first half of the season but where does it project to be in the first half of next season? Undoubtedly down. Significantly so. Lets not pretend that's not a huge concern from a pure business standpoint.

 

The Rays had ten years of top picks, and Friedman used them, played them, and traded them. But they are not drafting anywhere near the top now, and they don't have the payroll to pick someone else up. I don't care whether you take me seriously or not, so get over yourself.

 

And since you are such an expert on everything, I am sure that you can go in and tell the Jays FO, exactly how many less butts will be in the seats. I am sure they need to make arrangements to cover the shortfall.

[leaffie]

A complete ******** narrative, one that uneducated fans tend to spout quite often on here. If you think this is why the Rays are where they are, you're as lost in a fog as any poster on this board. If you want to be taken half seriously, don't say stupid things that any idiot can falsify with about a minute of Googling.

 

The Friedman regime has had 2 #1 pick. David Price, Beckham not 10.

 

And you are out of touch. Sure attendance was up in the first half of the season but where does it project to be in the first half of next season? Undoubtedly down. Significantly so. Lets not pretend that's not a huge concern from a pure business standpoint.

 

 

The Friedman regime has had 2 #1 pick. David Price, Beckham not 10.

 

And while you are busy insulting, you should take the time to read exactly what I said. No where did I say that they had ten #1 picks.

[ElNik2013]

I think it came about by accident, if that is possible in baseball. The Al east looked like it was wide open with the Sox/Yankees floundering. The pressure was starting to build with more fans coming back to the park and expectations rising. Then there was the additional money that every team will be getting this year. Plus, AA had a chance to get Reyes, that he has always coveted, and the trade grew from there. I actually didn't have a problem with the Marlins trade. It was the Dickey trade that I really disliked. Not because I didn't want to give up D'Arnaud (I think he will be less than stellar), but because they gave him up for what I considered a pitcher that was not going to be our Ace. I would have given away all three of our stud pitching prospects, to get a true Ace, that was young and healthy. This club is really not that far away. Just my take.

 

 

One of the problems with the Marlins trade, at least in my view, was that it wasn't a trade they were looking to make. By all accounts AA was inquiring about JJ and it was the Marlins who brought Buehrle into the conversation and then AA apparently brought up Reyes because of the prospects the Marlins asked for. To me, it was a huge overpay when you consider the salaries they took on. The effects of these salaries are easy to see now when they have a 130M payroll just to keep the roster intact, simply ridiculous and it went against everything AA had preached and mostly practiced since he took over.

[Nox]

The Rays had ten years of top picks, and Friedman used them, played them, and traded them.

 

So where did the following players come from?:

 

Zobrist

Myers -> Shields

Jennings

Moore

Cobb

Hellickson

+ everyone else not named Price or Longoria

 

It's almost like they extracted a f*** tonne of value from both the draft and the trade and free agent markets. Their success has not been a product the previous regime's failures. It takes about 2 minutes of thinking semi-critically to understand that.