Josh Donaldson passed Miggy in WAR

[G-Snarls]

New title: Miggy passed Donaldson in WAR.

 

Need a new thread!

 

(Kidding)

[jays_fever]

I'm saying when judging the most valuable player you can't adjust stats because of the park, because their results in a neutral park are hypothetical. Surely you understand this

 

You wouldn't be saying this if it favoured Donaldson.. Get your head out if your ass please. The stats are adjusted used mathematical formulas.. Ignoring them is beyond ignorant and frankly..puts you in the Mitch Williams territory when it comes to anayalsis and probably shouldn't even say anything

[Angrioter]

You can't leave them unadjusted though as CarGo has a huge advantage over Will Venable (you probably haven't heard of him) based on the park he hits in.

 

CarGo 2013

Home 124 wRC+

Road 174 wRC+

 

Career

Home 142 wRC+

Road 107 wRC+

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

You wouldn't be saying this if it favoured Donaldson.. Get your head out if your ass please. The stats are adjusted used mathematical formulas.. Ignoring them is beyond ignorant and frankly..puts you in the Mitch Williams territory when it comes to anayalsis and probably shouldn't even say anything

 

Depends what stat you are talking about. I'd argue that WAR is a flawed stat because it tries to consolidate disparate stats. Do I have proof of this or have I researched this ? No. I haven't even looked into WAR components at all. But the circumstantial evidence suggests its only a ballpark measure that might simplify some things but at some expense to accuracy and sometimes its not fully relevant.

 

Complex situations cannot be fully simplified with formulas and numbers.

[Nox]

No. I haven't even looked into WAR components at all.

 

Stop talking about it then.

 

Complex situations cannot be fully simplified with formulas and numbers.

 

While your statement is generally true, compared to other domains, baseball analysis is not all that complex.

[theblujay]

You wouldn't be saying this if it favoured Donaldson.. Get your head out if your ass please. The stats are adjusted used mathematical formulas.. Ignoring them is beyond ignorant and frankly..puts you in the Mitch Williams territory when it comes to anayalsis and probably shouldn't even say anything

 

It's ridiculous that you think we should adjust stats before looking at them to decide who the MVP is. The MVP award is pure results, or performance. I'm interested in what numbers they put up, and how they played. Not how they would have played, because you can't know that. What do you want next? Should we look at every pitcher every batter faced and adjust for that?

[Nox]

It's ridiculous that you think we should adjust stats before looking at them to decide who the MVP is. The MVP award is pure results, or performance. I'm interested in what numbers they put up, and how they played. Not how they would have played, because you can't know that. What do you want next? Should we look at every pitcher every batter faced and adjust for that?

 

Balentin has better numbers than Cabrera this year.

 

http://bis.npb.or.jp/eng/players/13315133.html

 

Therefore he's better right? I mean, we can't make any assumptions about league or park (or so I've learned in this thread).

[theblujay]

Balentin has better numbers than Cabrera this year.

 

http://bis.npb.or.jp/eng/players/13315133.html

 

Therefore he's better right? I mean, we can't make any assumptions about league or park (or so I've learned in this thread).

 

I'm not saying he's better, I'm saying if its the MVP vote than Balentin should be ahead. It's like you guys just don't read what I say and turn it into what you want to see.

 

Btw I hope you're not serious.

Edited September 18, 2013 by theblujay

[theblujay]

It's like you think park-adjusted metrics are pulled out of thin air.

 

Nope I don't think that.

[theblujay]

MVP should be the best player regardless of team, situation, or environment.

 

MVP shouldn't be the best player, it should be the player who had the best season and put up the best numbers. If you're gonna adjust for park factors, why not adjust for every other difference between the players.

[theblujay]

So by extension, you're cool with a GM taking Coors numbers at face value and ignoring park factors when it comes to evaluating player performance? Or is MVP voting the only evaluation that shouldn't incorporate the best available information?

 

A GM evaluating a player for the FUTURE is different than determining which player had the best stats during the season. One is fact, one is hypothetical. When you're looking at the hypotheticals, go ahead change and adjust the stats all you want to level it out.

[theblujay]

So a generic player on the Rockies should have a 20% better chance the the MVP than if they played on the Giants?

That's what you're saying.

 

A player in the AL west who faces the Astros pitching 18 times a year should have a better chance. Why don't you want to adjust for that. A player on the pirates doesn't face his own top pitching staff... There's plenty of other examples, but they are part of the game.

 

Basically I think it's outrageous to want to award MVP to someone based a hypothetical conversion of their stats.

[Randy The Robot]

I see Donaldson only has 5 SB, what exactly makes him a great base runner

 

Ugh, why are you getting responses?

[GD]

Ugh, why are you getting responses?

 

Randy! Missing RFG1?

[Randy The Robot]

Randy! Missing RFG1?

 

No, he disobeyed me and is currently mutilated in my basement. Don't tell anyone....if I know the law, and I think I do, I could get in serious trouble.

[theblujay]

Ugh, why are you getting responses?

 

People were talking about him like he's some amazing baserunner. I was just pointing out his SBs. Funny how you show up here without any real points.

[TheHurl]

for the record Donaldson is quite slow.

[TheHurl]

A player in the AL west who faces the Astros pitching 18 times a year should have a better chance. Why don't you want to adjust for that. A player on the pirates doesn't face his own top pitching staff... There's plenty of other examples, but they are part of the game.

 

Basically I think it's outrageous to want to award MVP to someone based a hypothetical conversion of their stats.

 

Blue Jays starters have given up more runs than Astros starters...Twins more than them both

[theblujay]

Here is the one sentence that addressed Donaldson's baserunning, courtesy of JFaS: "It's just that Donaldson fields and runs the bases well."

 

Nice strawman. There's no hyperbole in that sentence.

 

It wasn't just him, a bunch of people were saying his base running was above average and I was just pointing out his low SB totals, obviously there's more than SBs, but it seems like its tough to be a great base runner when you're not that fast. As long as you're not Sierra-dumb and a kinda quick you can be a positive baserunner.

[Nox]

Blue Jays starters have given up more runs than Astros starters...Twins more than them both

 

You and your details.

[theblujay]

Blue Jays starters have given up more runs than Astros starters...Twins more than them both

 

That's a whole different problem, but I'm not sure I see your point.

[TheHurl]

That's a whole different problem, but I'm not sure I see your point.

 

no, no you don't

[jays_fever]

no, no you don't

 

lol. Astro's pitching helps Donaldson so therefore its important. Twins help Miggy, so its irrelevant. He's so far over his head that he's just arguing every f***ing point now, regardless of what it is.

[theblujay]

lol. Astro's pitching helps Donaldson so therefore its important. Twins help Miggy, so its irrelevant. He's so far over his head that he's just arguing every f***ing point now, regardless of what it is.

 

I love seeing the false sense of superiority people like you get because you know some SABR stats. I was specifically saying that only Donaldson is affected by the Astros. I was saying that if you want to adjust past performance based on parks, you might as well adjust for more things, such as opposing pitchers numbers. (Although now that I think about it, wouldn't you have to adjust pitchers' stats based on opposing hitters...)

[kcjaysfan]

MVP shouldn't be the best player, it should be the player who had the best season and put up the best numbers. If you're gonna adjust for park factors, why not adjust for every other difference between the players.

 

Perhaps couching value in a different light might help. Right now, The US dollar is worth about $1.02 Canadian. If one person has $1.01 Canadian, and another person has $1.00 American, which person has the most value? It seems to me that by your arguments about value, you would say that the person with $1.01 Canadian would have more value because the number is bigger. But in reality, the $1.00 American is more valuable, since it's worth $1.02 Canadian.

[jays_fever]

I love seeing the false sense of superiority people like you get because you know some SABR stats. I was specifically saying that only Donaldson is affected by the Astros. I was saying that if you want to adjust past performance based on parks, you might as well adjust for more things, such as opposing pitchers numbers. (Although now that I think about it, wouldn't you have to adjust pitchers' stats based on opposing hitters...)

 

Yes and people told you that stasticially speaking, facing the Astros 18 a year is so much more insignificant than playing half your games in the pitching friendly stadium the A's play in. It was also pointed out that Miggy plays 18 times a year agaisnt the Twins, or are a WORSE pitching staff than the Astros..which you just keep ignoring. War isnt even a advanced SABR stat so the fact the people like you ignore it because it wasnt used 10 years ago is so f***ing ignorant. The A's play in a pitchig friendly park, so you give Donaldson more credit for his numbers..its so bloody simple. Get it

[theblujay]

Perhaps couching value in a different light might help. Right now, The US dollar is worth about $1.02 Canadian. If one person has $1.01 Canadian, and another person has $1.00 American, which person has the most value? It seems to me that by your arguments about value, you would say that the person with $1.01 Canadian would have more value because the number is bigger. But in reality, the $1.00 American is more valuable, since it's worth $1.02 Canadian.

 

That's fair, but there's a crucial difference that bothers me. In your example the value is certain, they are no other variables, just an equals sign. In baseball there are countless variables, and because of this I don't think we can adjust stats based on a single constant to determine the MVP. For predicting future numbers, sure. For past performance, ok you can use some thinking about where the player plays and their opponents, their team, ect. but I don't think you should put it into a number adjustment.

[theblujay]

Yes and people told you that stasticially speaking, facing the Astros 18 a year is so much more insignificant than playing half your games in the pitching friendly stadium the A's play in. It was also pointed out that Miggy plays 18 times a year agaisnt the Twins, or are a WORSE pitching staff than the Astros..which you just keep ignoring. War isnt even a advanced SABR stat so the fact the people like you ignore it because it wasnt used 10 years ago is so f***ing ignorant. The A's play in a pitchig friendly park, so you give Donaldson more credit for his numbers..its so bloody simple. Get it

 

Dude, I'll try to make it clear. I'm talking about all the pitchers that every player faces. I just said the Astros because they're one of the worst teams. Who knows which batter faced the easiest pitching.

 

BTW I don't ignore WAR I look at it all the time. But I don't only use it.

[theblujay]

For someone reason you're all missing my point. Ill try to explain

 

I said that if we are going to adjust past performance when evaluating the MVP, why only do parks? Why not opposing pitcher, or situational hitting. Or even every pitch, the velocity, the movement, the location and how good the batter is against every type of pitch. How about the weather, time of day...there are so many variables, many of them very insignificant, but that's what makes baseball a game and not a simulation.

[theblujay]

Your posts are terrible, probably the worst on the forum. I'm not trying to be mean or inflammatory, but this is one of the best baseball communities on the internet and I'm just not sure what you're trying to gain by acting like an ignorant jackass when you're probably in the bottom 5% in terms of knowledge. Why not just learn from people who know more than you? IIRC you're still in high school, so you'll probably grow out of it, but it's hard to watch you act like this over and over, thread after thread.

 

You're just proving my point with posts like this.