Can Ryan Goins stick?

[havok24]

No, it really does. An offensive metric that can't account for walks or differentiate between singles and homeruns is objectively a terrible tool for evaluating offensive performance.

 

Exactly.

[Abomination]

Getting hits is still the most important thing in the game. (For offense)

 

And batting average doesn't truly measure the hits. That's why it's overall a bad stat, it fools you into drawing the wrong conclusions.

[John_Havok]

And batting average doesn't truly measure the hits. That's why it's overall a bad stat, it fools you into drawing the wrong conclusions.

 

That's the crux of it. It's not about being a bad stat, it's about being incomplete and misleading.

[gruber92]

BTW, anybody catch that defensive clinic at second base out there today?

 

It's ok King. I'm sure Kawasaki would of made all those plays also.

[havok24]

That was a stretch. I apologize, I got a little worked up.

 

You don't need to apologize on the internet. Who cares really. Stick to your guns.

[theblujay]

Funny part is how he petends to know ballplayers from the MILB, and talk about his "LIST", when all he uses are stats hearsay from this board and other notes from scouts, and he hasn't seen any of them play, it's a flipping joke honestly. Then follows up with "you guys want robots playing and have you even seen them play", BS about guys in the MLB because people discuss advanced stats, he's just a scared pissant too afraid to divulge into the numbers. They don't tell all but they'll give a better clue!

 

Huh?

 

You're saying I can't talk about minor leaguers because I've never gone and seen them? First of all thats wrong, second of all how many people on this board have gone and scouted all these guys? Where do you get your false sense of superiority from? It seems like you're always lurking just waiting to hop on board and call someone out when sometimes you don't even understand the argument.

[theblujay]

"There's nothing more f***ing annoying than Gruber blowing his load over Goins, a player he probably didnt even know the name of 2 weeks ago."

 

I'm convinced you're a f***ing little arrogant tween who spends the good part of his day rimming BTS. I was actually starting to respect a lot of things you were saying and having an intelligent argument with yourself was starting to actually be a bit enjoyable. You can rip somebody's head off for backing Goins with your "based on what" or "86 wRC + in AAA" and blah blah f***ing blah. Then you have the f***ing ignorance to make a statement like i probably didn't even know who Goins was 2 weeks ago?

 

You can officially GFY. f***ing punks.

 

Hahaha

[John_Havok]

BTW, anybody catch that defensive clinic at second base out there today?

 

It's ok King. I'm sure Kawasaki would of made all those plays also.

 

I actually like Goins defensively, solid fundamentals.

[theblujay]

No, it really does. An offensive metric that can't account for walks or differentiate between singles and homeruns is objectively a terrible tool for evaluating offensive performance.

 

No its not. Its an excellent tool for evaluating offensive performance. Especially when used with players you are familiar with. If you have a power hitter with no speed hitting for a lower average than a fast slap-hitter you can tell the difference.

 

Batting average is the most basic stat and the most important. It tells you how often the player got a hit. Most of the time the batter isn't trying to hit a double or a triple, they're just trying to make a solid swing on the ball and get on base. Batting average tells you how successful they are.

[Abomination]

No, it really does. An offensive metric that can't account for walks or differentiate between singles and homeruns is objectively a terrible tool for evaluating offensive performance.

 

That might be going a little too far. A metric doesn't have to include every part of the offense to be situationally useful, but if you have a metric looking at one aspect like batting average (basically hits) it had better actually tell you something about the value of those hits rather than assuming that a home run is of the same value as a single (for example).

[havok24]

Ask blujay, he's on record saying he'd write a book why avg and rbi's are the most statistically important numbers in baseball, that would debunk all SABR stats? lol

 

Brandon Phillips would love to read that book.

[theblujay]

I actually like Goins defensively, solid fundamentals.

 

Now he just needs to have a decent bat and we're good.

[John_Havok]

No its not. Its an excellent tool for evaluating offensive performance. Especially when used with players you are familiar with. If you have a power hitter with no speed hitting for a lower average than a fast slap-hitter you can tell the difference.

 

Batting average is the most basic stat and the most important. It tells you how often the player got a hit. Most of the time the batter isn't trying to hit a double or a triple, they're just trying to make a solid swing on the ball and get on base. Batting average tells you how successful they are.

 

Christ.

 

Player A hits .260

Player B hits .260

 

Which one is more valuable?

[havok24]

Now he just needs to have a decent bat and we're good.

 

There really isn't any evidence from his pro career that he will even have a "decent" bat. He is terrible offensively.

[theblujay]

Top 10 in batting average:

 

Cabrera

Trout

Chris Johnson

Cuddyer

Molina

Beltre

Mauer

Werth

McCutchen

Craig

 

They are all the best hitters in the game. Not sure how you can say its useless.

[theblujay]

Christ.

 

Player A hits .260

Player B hits .260

 

Which one is more valuable?

 

I'd have to watch the game to find out, something that you SABR guys seem to forget about. You want to eliminate the need to watch the games and know the players.

[theblujay]

Which one has more RBIs?

 

Don't even get me started on RBIs

[theblujay]

 

So you have nothing to say

[Laika]

Top 10 in batting average:

 

Cabrera

Trout

Chris Johnson

Cuddyer

Molina

Beltre

Mauer

Werth

McCutchen

Craig

 

They are all the best hitters in the game. Not sure how you can say its useless.

 

Chris Johnson, the third best hitter in the game eh.

[John_Havok]

I'd have to watch the game to find out, something that you SABR guys seem to forget about. You want to eliminate the need to watch the games and know the players.

 

So what you're saying is you can't tell based on batting average how good these two players are?

 

Seems like you're making a pretty solid argument against batting average as being,as you said, the most important stat.

 

And again, stop with the strawman crap. Nobody wants to eliminate watching games and players.

[theblujay]

Correct. Similarly, I'd have nothing to say to someone who told me that the planet is 10 thousand years old and that evolution is a lie from Satan. Congrats I guess.

 

The earth is flat if you don't love SABR stats.

[theblujay]

Chris Johnson, the third best hitter in the game eh.

 

Nope. He's the third best at getting hits. Which is the most important thing in the game.

[theblujay]

So what you're saying is you can't tell based on batting average how good these two players are?

 

Seems like you're making a pretty solid argument against batting average as being,as you said, the most important stat.

 

I'm not saying batting average tells you how good a player is. It tells you how good they are at getting hits. Which I believe is the most important part of the game.

[gruber92]

which one has more rbis?

 

lol

[DuckDuckGose]

I'm not saying batting average tells you how good a player is. It tells you how good they are at getting hits. Which I believe is the most important part of the game.

 

but not all hits are equal, so why value them as such?

[JSFIP]

Ask blujay, he's on record saying he'd write a book why avg and rbi's are the most statistically important numbers in baseball, that would debunk all SABR stats? lol

 

1. No he didn't

 

2. Didn't you ignore me? Oh wait you never back up anything, I forgot.

[John_Havok]

I'm not saying batting average tells you how good a player is. It tells you how good they are at getting hits. Which I believe is the most important part of the game.

 

So ... Let me understand. You believe that getting hits is the most important part of the game. So if two p,ayers are hitting .260, it is your contention that they are equally talented at getting base hits. So then, how would you ever decide even after watching both players say, over a full season, which one you'd rather have on your team if the most important stat you have says the players are equally talented in the most important part of the game?

 

I'm going to a banquet is ill be back later to answer whatever it is you come up with.

[havok24]

Nope. He's the third best at getting hits. Which is the most important thing in the game.

 

Chris Johnson has a .407 BABIP. Much of his success is BABIP driven.

[DuckDuckGose]

For the same reason you ignore walks. What that reason is I have no idea, but I suspect it has something to do with being on the stupid side.

 

Melky hit .280 this year. Prime example why BA isn't a good stat. The run value of a single is significantly less than an XBH, a good offensive indicator reflects that.

[gruber92]

Holy f*** already. SABR are good to start your initial platform in evaluating a player,no doubt. But you have to actually watch the player physically play and also try and learn about personality and clubhouse presence also.

 

Pure moneyball is signing a player to your team based on paper results,which i am not a fan of.

 

Somehow that approach kind of takes away the "magic" that baseball can bring. For people who are old enough,there was a special kind of "magic" that baseball use to bring, not that its not there now,but its not the same. Probably mainly due to teams not drafting and developing players into the MLB and maintaining their employment for a good amount of years,and i'm talking about 5 or 6 out the 9 starters. That was more a commonplace years ago

 

Maybe its just Toronto.