Can Ryan Goins stick?

[Boxcar]

It's meaningless when it works for you.

 

Yeah, because I try not to make a habit of basing my opinions and beliefs on meaningless conjecture. When a guy sucks at hitting, I find that most media personalities allude to him being a great defender in an effort to say something nice.

[theblujay]

Wrong.

 

Ok I'll just ask you then: What do you think about his D?

[theblujay]

Yeah, because I try not to make a habit of basing my opinions and beliefs on meaningless conjecture. When a guy sucks at hitting, I find that most media personalities allude to him being a great defender in an effort to say something nice.

 

Minor league reports saying his D is good aren't meaningless conjecture.

[theblujay]

Yes I understand.... I think most people do. Hence the 10% chance of making it that was used earlier. Maybe it's 2%.... But what's the sense of arguing over a 8% difference, when two sides are basically saying he has a 90%+ chance of not making it?

 

He's here... he's playing... the Jays are completely done. Why not cheer for a 1 or 2% chance?

 

They can't cheer for anything good because it would go against their precious stats and predictions.

[Boxcar]

Arrogance...

 

At least be entertaining. I'll give you one more chance, but I'm sorry to say that it's iggies if you don't come through.

[theblujay]

I have no opinion.

 

Ok, but you seem to have a pretty strong opinion about the rest of him.

[Boxcar]

Yes I understand.... I think most people do. Hence the 10% chance of making it that was used earlier. Maybe it's 2%.... But what's the sense of arguing over a 8% difference, when two sides are basically saying he has a 90%+ chance of not making it?

 

He's here... he's playing... the Jays are completely done. Why not cheer for a 1 or 2% chance?

 

Because the sample size would be too small. This FO reacted to LESS THAN AN INNING to decide that Nolin wasn't ready, I am worried about what a BABIP fueled September could mean for Goins going forward. Of course, him becoming a good player would be wonderful but there's no way we'd be able to deduce what he is after a couple hundred PAs, if that. I don't care if he plays the rest of the year but there's no way he should be in the discussion next year, no matter how well he hits.

[Caper]

I'll say this. I would love to have him here over Izturis next year. Just the flexibility to be able to send him to Buffalo when you may need help at pitching would be worth it.

[JSFIP]

At least be entertaining. I'll give you one more chance, but I'm sorry to say that it's iggies if you don't come through.

 

I'm not trying to be entertaining. I'm pointing out that you calling someone on here arrogant is ridiculous because you are unbelievably arrogant. Go ahead and ignore me because (you may find this really hard to believe) I don't care. Just trying to show you something.

[Caper]

Because the sample size would be too small. This FO reacted to LESS THAN AN INNING to decide that Nolin wasn't ready, I am worried about what a BABIP fueled September could mean for Goins going forward. Of course, him becoming a good player would be wonderful but there's no way we'd be able to deduce what he is after a couple hundred PAs, if that. I don't care if he plays the rest of the year but there's no way he should be in the discussion next year, no matter how well he hits.

 

 

Fair enough, good point. If he has a good September and he keeps up a torrid pace, then maybe the FO thinks they have the problem solved and it f***s them next year.

[Boxcar]

I'm not trying to be entertaining. I'm pointing out that you calling someone on here arrogant is ridiculous because you are unbelievably arrogant. Go ahead and ignore me because (you may find this really hard to believe) I don't care. Just trying to show you something.

 

Thank you, and ok. Good bye forever. I'm sorry we couldn't be friends =(

[theblujay]

Because the sample size would be too small. This FO reacted to LESS THAN AN INNING to decide that Nolin wasn't ready, I am worried about what a BABIP fueled September could mean for Goins going forward. Of course, him becoming a good player would be wonderful but there's no way we'd be able to deduce what he is after a couple hundred PAs, if that. I don't care if he plays the rest of the year but there's no way he should be in the discussion next year, no matter how well he hits.

 

The first thing I said earlier today: "I'm not saying we should roll with Goins, but its funny how quickly you guys write him off."

 

I think we're narrowing in on what we're really arguing.

[Laika]

I'll say this. I would love to have him here over Izturis next year. Just the flexibility to be able to send him to Buffalo when you may need help at pitching would be worth it.

 

Izturis demonstrated this year that he can't really play a viable SS anymore, at least on turf, so I would agree. The 6M owed to Izturis is basically a sunk cost at this point... I'd be inclined to cut Mouser and go with Goins/Kawasaki as the backup IF depth going into 2014. (They'll probably also bring DeRosa back, who can kind of sort of play 3B and 2B).

 

Well, I never would have given Izturis that contract, but that's a different issue. He's very much a year-to-year type of player. Was never deserving of a 3 year contract, but I suppose Toronto probably had to overpay to get him, or whatever. Lol.

[theblujay]

Of course. He's 25 and was a well below-average hitter in AAA, and is obviously projected to be even worse here. He's a really, really bad hitter. The type you can't carry.

I haven't watched any games since he's been called up so I don't know what his swing looks like, but I don't think you can completely determine he is a really, really bad hitter just based on his stats in AAA this year. Before you jump to conclusions I'm not saying he's good. I'm arguing with your methods for determining if he's good. As you said, you have no opinion on his D, so you're saying he's a terrible player based on AAA wRC+.

 

I agree with Caper that he would be a good new version of McCoy next year.

[theblujay]

I put absolutely zero faith in my ability to scout a swing. Like none at all.

 

Ok...so then it would make even more sense to give him some time to see what he can do.

[Caper]

Not every piece of s*** below-average AAA talent deserves time in the majors to see what they can do. The assumption that a 25-year old who can't hit in AAA will really struggle to hit in the majors is one I'm very comfortable with.

 

So you would cut him.... or send him back to Buffalo right now? Or what?

[Abomination]

Wow, this thread exploded in a hurry...

 

The one thing I like about Goins is that he's tended to improve every year (except AAA this year obviously). I don't think he'll ever be a star, but from the limited games we've seen him in I could easily see him basically clone Izzy's career offensively while playing better defense. I have no idea if that will turn out true or not, but this remaining month is the perfect time to get an extended look.

[theblujay]

Wow, this thread exploded in a hurry...

 

The one thing I like about Goins is that he's tended to improve every year (except AAA this year obviously). I don't think he'll ever be a star, but from the limited games we've seen him in I could easily see him basically clone Izzy's career offensively while playing better defense. I have no idea if that will turn out true or not, but this remaining month is the perfect time to get an extended look.

 

Don't tell anyone here than people can improve and exceed expectations and that every player doesn't follow a single set of rules.

[theblujay]

Keep him up until the end of the year, then keep him in AAA next year as depth.

 

I don't think we disagree on this. Its just how we get there

[Caper]

I'd have him in the bench next year and do my best to get rid of Izzi.

[Convo]

I'd have him in the bench next year and do my best to get rid of Izzi.

 

I understand Goins will probably never amount to anything based on his historically poor minor league offensive stats. But by that same token, Izturis who sucked this year, is normally a pretty decent ball player. If anything Izturis is a good bench option.

[TheHurl]

As the leading Goins booster leading up to his callup...he can play shortstop adequately which makes him a great candidate for 26th an, leading to a role as 25th man. When everyone was crying for negrych I was a "if he is needed Goins is the better option". With that glowing review I still see 25th man as his future

[flafson]

Let the kid play, right now he gives everything and so far (6 games) has done well both on offense and defense. Will he be a starter? Will he be AAAA level or will he just wash out? We don't know unless he plays in the major league. It happens a lot that players don't do well in a specific level in the minors do well in the majors, so who knows, give the kid a chance.

[flafson]

I think it's fairly simple... he only got a chance to play because of an injury to Izturis. If he maintains his current pace or or even ends his call up hitting around 350 how could you not give him another look??

 

Look no further than Pillar to see an exact opposite case.. played well in the minors and totally cannot play MLB..I think character difference comes into play here.. there's no stat to measure that.. either you have it or you don't.. I think players like drabek and gose are mentally fragile as opposed to guys like hutch and possibly this goins character.. I believe confidence plays a big role on how things translate into MLB coming from the minors

 

When did Pillar prove that he can't play at this level? The only thing he was able to prove is that he can adjust to the pitchers rather quickly. I'm pretty sure he's hitting over .300 since his first hit.

[Convo]

Look no further than Pillar to see an exact opposite case.. played well in the minors and totally cannot play MLB.

 

46 PA / .222 BABIP

 

Ban.

[gruber92]

I really couldn't believe it when I opened the thread and saw 5-6 snarky posts mocking Goins doubters because he had a couple of hits. Who are these people? I mean, its Ryan f***ing Goins we're talking about here.

 

You are not being fair here. Did you even watch his AB's against Kuroda tonight? Why is it you guys are taking fans that are routing for Goins to do well,but know the chances are small that he sticks,as if we're penciling him as our starting 2B next year based on six MLB games? This is where this whole topic gets out of hand.

[gruber92]

Lmfao. You lay on the snarky arrogance for comparing IL and PCL stat lines using a stat that accounts for the offensive environments, then you somehow argue about his defense instead when made to look like the bloody idiot you are. Incredible. Where do you people even come from?

 

The same place where people thought Jake Marisnick was the next Micky Mantle.

[KSaw]

Over 15 months ago I suggested that he could be the utility/ 25th man at some point this season. I still see him as a 25th man. He's not a starting player but he has a MLB career upside.

[KSaw]

I'll clarify. I think that he's more talented and a better baseball player than Ryan Roberts (at the same point in development).

[GD]

Ryan Goins > Brenden Kalfus

 

BAN.

 

As the leading Goins booster leading up to his callup...

 

To be fair, I was pretty big on him too lol. I think he'll be a more than adequate 25th man or excellent depth. He can play good defense from the eye test. Whether that translates to actually playing good defense will decide if he can stick.