Can Ryan Goins stick?

[Boxcar]

The fact that you call other posters "arrogant" and then you churn out garbage like this shows how much of a hypocrite you are.

 

I care about your opinion.

[theblujay]

But what you speak of does not exist. I heard people say he had a 90% of failure. I heard people say he's looked ok, give him s shot.

 

It was exactly what I got when I brought up Gomes last year..... he was a strike out machine.... he was going to do nothing but strike out as soon as pitchers decided to throw him a breaking ball (why message board contributors are privy to this information and not the actual pitchers is beyond me). But he's been fine this year.

 

I don't think Goins is a starting 2nd baseman.... I don't think many people here do. But in 5 years, I've seen 4 or 5 guys who were supposed to be awful and have been a great suprise....... Loup, Bautista, EE and Gomes come to mind...... it wouldn't be the biggest surprise ever if Goins ended up improving to the point where he was a capable 2nd baseman.

 

Don't bother arguing with these guys. Their minds are made up, he sucks. They won't listen to anything.

 

@BTS-read his last paragraph, its what we've been saying all night.

[JSFIP]

I care about your opinion.

 

Hahahaha you only prove my point. You are the most arrogant person here, which says a lot.

[theblujay]

Yeah, Thames and Pillar sure proved everyone wrong. Gomes is a bit of an outlier, he's been a pleasant surprise but I wouldn't bank on this kind of year from him every time.

 

I'm here to back all the sane people here who are reading your drivel. DJBluRay, is that you?

 

Why do we even let the players play the game? All we need to do is sort by stats and we have the best right there. Just sim their stats based on DIPS and we can determine the WS.

[Caper]

Looks like you've come out of the hive to back your buddy BTS. This isn't an argument about Goins, its about how you guys dismiss players without giving them a chance. The same thing happened with Pillar, Thames, Gomes...

 

 

 

Yes... Gomes was awful. As soon as pitchers decided to throw him breaking balls he's going to completely fall apart... Of course until the the hive decides to pass along this special knowledge to opposing pitchers they will continue to serve up Gomes juicy meatballs.

[theblujay]

But he hasn't proven that he can play plus defense, and we know his offense is going to be well below-average.

 

The only facts we've learned here are that you read at about a grade-2 level and don't know what a strawman argument is.

 

We know this? How? Numbers are always right 100% of the time. And how do you know he hasn't played plus D

 

"But there’s a lot more to Goins’ game than just hitting. On the other side of the ball, the Round Rock, Texas native has continued to play above-average defense for the Bisons." http://jaysprospects.com/2013/07/31/ryan-goins-buffalo-bisons/

[John_Havok]

Why do we even let the players play the game? All we need to do is sort by stats and we have the best right there. Just sim their stats based on DIPS and we can determine the WS.

 

For someone who accuses others of strawman arguments, you should probably refrain from using them in every other post...

[Boxcar]

For someone who accuses others of strawman arguments, you should probably refrain from using them in every other post...

 

He can't because he doesn't actually know what they are.

[Boxcar]

Hahahaha you only prove my point. You are the most arrogant person here, which says a lot.

 

Go ahead, disagree with me. I'm sure all of you sabermetrics idiots will instantly. It's the truth, that's all. SOOOOOOOO overrated by everyone on this board.[/Quote]

 

I'm not too worried when the author of a quote like this is calling me arrogant.

[GeorgiaPeach]

So he has a 89 wRC+ in AAA. So what you are saying is there is no way in hell he can make adjustments in his approach and/or swing that can improve his offense enough in order for him to stick, or maybe something may of clicked mentally that will allow him to improve. God knows something like this has never happened before. The way he turned those DP's was f***ing refreshing. What was Bautista's projected wRC when he was 25? We let EE go just a few years ago FFS. Maybe Mottolla can work with him and figure something out,who knows.

 

I'm not really a fan of banking hopes on 25 year olds making their MLB debuts and turning into a Bautista. It really is ridiculous.

[Laika]

http://i.imgur.com/TYNQl.gif

 

ITT: a rare congregation of butthurt non-cool kids

[theblujay]

For someone who accuses others of strawman arguments, you should probably refrain from using them in every other post...

 

Sometimes you gotta exaggerate to get the attention of these guys.

[theblujay]

But he hasn't proven that he can play plus defense, and we know his offense is going to be well below-average.

 

The only facts we've learned here are that you read at about a grade-2 level and don't know what a strawman argument is.

 

We know this? How? Numbers are always right 100% of the time. And how do you know he hasn't played plus D

 

"But there’s a lot more to Goins’ game than just hitting. On the other side of the ball, the Round Rock, Texas native has continued to play above-average defense for the Bisons." http://jaysprospects.com/2013/07/31/ryan-goins-buffalo-bisons/

[theblujay]

I feels like you don't realize that for every replacement-level player who figures something out and becomes a productive major leaguer, hundreds wash out. Sure, Ryan Goins has a non-zero chance of being major-league starter... but why should anyone care about a 25-year old with, what, a 1-2% chance of being relevant at the pro level? They shouldn't. The overwhelming likelihood is that Goins kicks around for a few years seeing a bit of time with a few organizations before ultimately flaming out.

 

After the production we got from 2B this year, why are you so against see what he can do?

[Caper]

Yeah, Thames and Pillar sure proved everyone wrong.

 

 

What do you mean proved everyone wrong? What were people saying? Were people saying they were all-stars?

 

Gomes is a bit of an outlier, he's been a pleasant surprise but I wouldn't bank on this kind of year from him every time.

 

Really? You wouldn't bank on him being one of the top catchers in the American League (about 4th in WAR)? That's quite the limb you went out on there.

 

 

I'm here to back all the sane people here who are reading your drivel. DJBluRay, is that you?

[Laika]

Can't we all just agree that Ryan Goins doesn't absolutely definitely suck, he just very very very very very probably sucks / maxes out as a backup IF?

 

I don't even really understand how there's a chasm here.

 

Oh yeah, it's because several people think that giving Ryan Goins a chance to start is actually an acceptable course of action. Jesus H Christ.

[Boxcar]

We know this? How? Numbers are always right 100% of the time. And how do you know he hasn't played plus D

 

"But there’s a lot more to Goins’ game than just hitting. On the other side of the ball, the Round Rock, Texas native has continued to play above-average defense for the Bisons." http://jaysprospects.com/2013/07/31/ryan-goins-buffalo-bisons/

 

Amazing that BTS and others have said, literally numerous times directly to you, with explanations, that minor league casual observation is meaningless when evaluating a player's defensive value. You still keep rolling out the quotes. I'm starting to think that you are actually illiterate.

[John_Havok]

Sometimes you gotta exaggerate to get the attention of these guys.

 

You mean like stating that Kalfus is a switch hitting version of Mike Trout? I can only hope that was tongue in cheek.

[JSFIP]

I'm not too worried when the author of a quote like this is calling me arrogant.

 

Wow digging up months old post history. Nice. I'll go with the BTS response here.

 

Please try to leave my past out of this. I've come a long way.

[theblujay]

Again, your reading comprehension is awful. I never claimed to know he hasn't played plus defense. I claimed to know he hasn't proven he can play plus defense here. The difference is probably lost on you, but I promise that it is important.

 

Obviously he hasn't proven it. He's only played for a week. All we have to go on is years of minor league reports, which happen to say he has above-average D. But let's disregard those because Hech isn't good at D.

[theblujay]

You mean like stating that Kalfus is a switch hitting version of Mike Trout? I can only hope that was tongue in cheek.

 

I guess you've haven't been on that thread much.

[theblujay]

Because Jose Bautista happened. Now we have to entertain the possibility that every plug in the organization with a replacement-level mean projection is just on the verge of figuring it out.

I would think someone as into stats and numbers as you are would understand the value of seeing what Goins can do for the rest of this meaningless year.

[theblujay]

Amazing that BTS and others have said, literally numerous times directly to you, with explanations, that minor league casual observation is meaningless when evaluating a player's defensive value. You still keep rolling out the quotes. I'm starting to think that you are actually illiterate.

 

It's meaningless when it works for you.

[Boxcar]

What do you mean proved everyone wrong? What were people saying? Were people saying they were all-stars?

 

 

 

Really? You wouldn't bank on him being one of the top catchers in the American League (about 4th in WAR)? That's quite the limb you went out on there.

 

 

I'm here to back all the sane people here who are reading your drivel. DJBluRay, is that you?

 

Read the quote I was responding to and don't be lazy.

[Laika]

I would think someone as into stats and numbers as you are would understand the value of seeing what Goins can do for the rest of this meaningless year.

 

Wait, since when did any of us give a s*** who plays second base the rest of the way?

 

What's a strawman again???

[theblujay]

Had you acknowledged this earlier your struggles with reading wouldn't have cost us both multiple posts.

 

He hasn't proven to be below-average either, which is what you seem to keep implying. Like I said the only data we have is minor league reports, but you're trashing those.

[theblujay]

Wait, since when did any of us give a s*** who plays second base the rest of the way?

 

What's a strawman again???

 

No, you're right, let's just assume that everyone who isn't a top 100 prospect is absolute garbage and will never contribute.

[JSFIP]

Read the quote I was responding to and don't be lazy.

 

Arrogance...

[theblujay]

You mean like the time we let Thames addition for the LF job and the FO had no idea whatsoever to do with the information they attained? The absolute worst thing that can happen this year is for Goins to BABIP his way to a decent slash line.

 

If Goins plays fringe above-average D (which I kinda expect he will, because he always has) he doesn't need to BABIP his way to a great slash line to be valuable.

[Caper]

I feels like you don't realize that for every replacement-level player who figures something out and becomes a productive major leaguer, hundreds wash out. Sure, Ryan Goins has a non-zero chance of being major-league starter... but why should anyone care about a 25-year old with, what, a 1-2% chance of being relevant at the pro level? They shouldn't. The overwhelming likelihood is that Goins kicks around for a few years seeing a bit of time with a few organizations before ultimately flaming out.

 

Yes I understand.... I think most people do. Hence the 10% chance of making it that was used earlier. Maybe it's 2%.... But what's the sense of arguing over a 8% difference, when two sides are basically saying he has a 90%+ chance of not making it?

 

He's here... he's playing... the Jays are completely done. Why not cheer for a 1 or 2% chance?