[AL East Trade]: O's acquire K-Rod

[SAAviour]

Ps I'd trade them despite the fact they are 2of the few guys I actually like on this team.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Relief aces!!!!!!!!

 

You know, if you really want to go to war with your extremely limited knowledge of baseball I'll destroy you. Seriously, its not hard to see you are a casual fan with very little of a handle to what major league teams do in practical terms.

 

The chances of the Jays trading all of Delebar, Janssen, and Cecil is ZERO. Ok, you heard it here first. Sorry to break it to you is isn't going to happen. The chance they trade or release two middle guys is decent. The chance that they trade ONE reliever who could potentially close is moderate but there are so many reasons that it won't happen.

 

So I choose to discuss the possibility that they trade one reliever. You can spout off about your fantasy of them trading all three.

[P2F]

Is that you, Greenwood?

[Angrioter]

Janssen value dropping every day.

[Boxcar]

You know, if you really want to go to war with your extremely limited knowledge of baseball I'll destroy you. Seriously, its not hard to see you are a casual fan with very little of a handle to what major league teams do in practical terms.

 

The chances of the Jays trading all of Delebar, Janssen, and Cecil is ZERO. Ok, you heard it here first. Sorry to break it to you is isn't going to happen. The chance they trade or release two middle guys is decent. The chance that they trade ONE reliever who could potentially close is moderate but there are so many reasons that it won't happen.

 

So I choose to discuss the possibility that they trade one reliever. You can spout off about your fantasy of them trading all three.

 

I think this guy is a troll. Kinda transparent and not very entertaining, though. Then again, in this era of extremely dumb people, you never know who's actually a troll.

[Boxcar]

Is that you, Greenwood?

 

Not enough snark.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I think this guy is a troll. Kinda transparent and not very entertaining, though. Then again, in this era of extremely dumb people, you never know who's actually a troll.

 

That was my impression from his first few posts I read; my mistake for taking him seriously when he denied it. The bottom line is the Jays won't be trading their entire bullpen away as no less then 3 or 4 people have suggested on this thread.

[Angrioter]

Yep, it's best to just ignore King. Doesn't know what he's talking about, probably a troll too.

 

I think there's a chance AA could trade two relievers, obviously not the whole pen.

 

Janssen loses value each day (regression to the mean). Trade him, Cecil and Oliver ASAP

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

http://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/1009-AL-East-Trade-O-s-acquire-K-Rod?p=97937&viewfull=1#post97937

 

I said right here I don't want to trade the whole pen, I don't know where you guys are getting this from

 

Read the first page. Pay particular attention to YOUR posts.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

My favourite was using Amaro's unwillingness to trade Papelbon as support for the value of the relief ace.

 

Seriously, any trade involving a stopper involves understanding how the Phillies value Papelbon. Not a hard concept to understand,

but perhaps you are more of a basketball fan.

[Boxcar]

Seriously, any trade involving a stopper involves understanding how the Phillies value Papelbon. Not a hard concept to understand,

but perhaps you are more of a basketball fan.

 

The Phillies GM is an idiot and easily the worst in baseball. Nothing he does or says should be used as a barometer for anything. He has said he doesn't care about walks or OBP, just guys that can drive in runs. Tell me, how many runs can you drive in when no one is on base in front of you?

[Deadpool]

Seriously, any trade involving a stopper involves understanding how the Phillies value Papelbon. Not a hard concept to understand,

but perhaps you are more of a basketball fan.

 

Man, I'm so f***ing glad you showed up on this board. We were absolutely drowning in ignorance and someone who knows the value of a relief ace is a welcome breath of fresh air!

 

Also, not what I just said!

[Angrioter]

What's a damn ACE reliever?

Have we one of them?

[Deadpool]

Apparently Papelbon is an ACE RELIEVER

 

So is Janssen. Nobody else in our pen could possibly work the 9th inning in save situations because he is the ACE RELIEVER.

[Deadpool]

That's how it works. The other guys haven't proven themselves, who knows how they'd respond as closers. Once you get that ace reliever you keep him. Same with ace starters, 40 home run hitters, etc.

 

This method has been tried and tested for decades, so it's sure to produce the best results.

 

Frankly, I blame Gibbons. He should be fired post haste for not turning all our relievers into ACE RELIEVERS. In a save situation, every one in the bullpen should be on the mound throwing at the same time so they can all learn what it takes to be ACE RELIEVERS.

[Slot Machine]

Janssen hasn't saved a single meaningful game in his career either. Plenty of guys have racked up da saves for shitbag teams before.

[Boxcar]

Gibbons works too many guys into the later innings, he diversifies the leverage way too much. The way you train relievers to be Ace relievers is by locking them into a set-up role and going to them no matter their rest situation.

 

For instance, Cecil should have been in there today pitching the eighth. Sitting in the pen and getting babied doesn't train a guy to handle the rigours of being that Ace reliever presence in the future. Cecil needs all the reps he can get.

 

You've made some great posts tonight.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Man, I'm so f***ing glad you showed up on this board. We were absolutely drowning in ignorance and someone who knows the value of a relief ace is a welcome breath of fresh air!

 

Also, not what I just said!

 

So good to see all you really care about is hitting upon a semantics error and repeatably posting based on that phrase. Of course, maybe this is somewhat of an improvement on the people suggesting they trade their whole bullpen away.

 

Or not what I just said. I'm not impressed with the quality on this forum so far. Lot of trolling and absurd theories about baseball trades that are going to happen.

[Boxcar]

So good to see all you really care about is hitting upon a semantics error and repeatably posting based on that phrase. Of course, maybe this is somewhat of an improvement on the people suggesting they trade their whole bullpen away.

 

Or not what I just said. I'm not impressed with the quality on this forum so far. Lot of trolling and absurd theories about baseball trades that are going to happen.

 

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, (relief) ace.

[Dick_Pole]

lol all of this mocking of this guy and his ace reliever nonsense. Then when the team has anyone named Francisco or Kevin Gregg running the show there will be dozens of posts "IF ONLY WE DIDN'T HAVE THESE 20 BLOWN SAVES WE'D HAVE 94 WINS AND A PLAYOFF SPOT" littering the board like the other one two years ago.

 

How long was Jason Frasor on this team racking up decent RP numbers but as soon as he's put into the closer role he turns into a bag of s***. People should know better than to mock the closer role when the Jays finally have that solved after many, many attempts to fill it since Duane Ward. I don't disagree with trading 1 or 2 RP from surplus but at least one of Janssen and Delabar must stay here and preferably both imo. Relying on Santos or McGowan as closer/late inning specialists is no guarantee for success.

 

It's funny when people say Casey is at his peak value, the exact same thing was said of Scott Downs when he was here. Using advanced stats to predict his decline once he left as a FA. Well here we are 3 years later and he's had three pretty effective years in LA. No one really knows when Janssen will decline. He has a pretty good mindset for a closer, the best we've seen in years for the Jays and his ability to fill the role surpasses his actual pitching talent so he could have a good 5 or 6 years of effective late inning relief left in him even if his velocity declines.

 

Now whether or not the Jays can resign him after 2014 or if signing him is wasted money if this turns into a s*** team 2014 and beyond that doesn't need a closer is another debate altogether.

[Deadpool]

So good to see all you really care about is hitting upon a semantics error and repeatably posting based on that phrase. Of course, maybe this is somewhat of an improvement on the people suggesting they trade their whole bullpen away.

 

Or not what I just said. I'm not impressed with the quality on this forum so far. Lot of trolling and absurd theories about baseball trades that are going to happen.

 

Maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, but maybe you are the one who is wrong in your theories. The only "special breed" one needs to be a great closer is to be a great pitcher, and holding on to Janssen when the possible of getting value for him exists is silly when we have at the very least 3 guys in the pen right now who could take over and do the job as well, or better than he has.

 

If we got a good return, I would happily trade the entire pen. If we could upgrade at C, 2B and SP with "close to ready prospects" (I'm not saying we can, but if we could) I'd trade every last reliever we have, because relievers are not that hard to find. It is much harder to find everyday players and starting pitchers, so if we could use an asset that we have in abundance to get an asset that we desperately need, that's just smart management.

 

I am sure that there are some players who have issue with pressure, but I would guess that most of those are weeded out in the minor leagues. Your cited examples of Francisco and Gregg are simply "pitchers who weren't all that good" not "guys who were good, but couldn't handle closing". It's a very real distinction.

 

The reason that people were "repeatably" (the word you were looking for was "repeatedly", btw) posting based on that phrase is that it perfectly summed up your thought process, and frankly you came off as incredibly arrogant, as though you came here to school all of us with your baseball knowledge, so you earned the mockery and scorn that you got.

[fatcowxlive]

Apparently Papelbon is an ACE RELIEVER

 

Is Valverde and dem savez an Ace Reliever too?

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, but maybe you are the one who is wrong in your theories. The only "special breed" one needs to be a great closer is to be a great pitcher, and holding on to Janssen when the possible of getting value for him exists is silly when we have at the very least 3 guys in the pen right now who could take over and do the job as well, or better than he has.

 

If we got a good return, I would happily trade the entire pen. If we could upgrade at C, 2B and SP with "close to ready prospects" (I'm not saying we can, but if we could) I'd trade every last reliever we have, because relievers are not that hard to find. It is much harder to find everyday players and starting pitchers, so if we could use an asset that we have in abundance to get an asset that we desperately need, that's just smart management.

 

I am sure that there are some players who have issue with pressure, but I would guess that most of those are weeded out in the minor leagues. Your cited examples of Francisco and Gregg are simply "pitchers who weren't all that good" not "guys who were good, but couldn't handle closing". It's a very real distinction.

 

The reason that people were "repeatably" (the word you were looking for was "repeatedly", btw) posting based on that phrase is that it perfectly summed up your thought process, and frankly you came off as incredibly arrogant, as though you came here to school all of us with your baseball knowledge, so you earned the mockery and scorn that you got.

 

No, I still think your full of s***. I have a hard time caring what you think at this point. Post something intelligent I might change my mind.

King is clearly a troll in every sense of the word. I hold very little hope for him.

 

And when I first posted here I was quite reasonable. Its not me recommending extreme overhauls of the roster that to be blunt rarely

happen for any team ( the Marlins trade was not a regular event ). What I saw was a board full of recommendations to overhaul the entire

Jays team when team policy is quite the opposite. I suggested some more limited moves would be worthy of discussion. This is not arrogance,

its simply reflecting on reality.

[fatcowxlive]

Nope, nice try. Valverde is a closer but doesn't fit into the Ace reliever mold.

 

If you have to ask if a pitcher is an Ace reliever, then he isn't one.

Is Papelbon an Ace Reliever?

Yep.

 

Huh? How does that work?? lol

[Deadpool]

No, I still think your full of s***. I have a hard time caring what you think at this point. Post something intelligent I might change my mind.

King is clearly a troll in every sense of the word. I hold very little hope for him.

 

And when I first posted here I was quite reasonable. Its not me recommending extreme overhauls of the roster that to be blunt rarely

happen for any team ( the Marlins trade was not a regular event ). What I saw was a board full of recommendations to overhaul the entire

Jays team when team policy is quite the opposite. I suggested some more limited moves would be worthy of discussion. This is not arrogance,

its simply reflecting on reality.

 

Okay, so you're plugging your ears and ignoring the world around you. Excellent choice, I would recommend some undercooked chicken to go with it.

 

I understand that it's difficult to admit when you're wrong, but you're wrong. Just saying that what I'm posting isn't intelligent without actually positing a reason as to why that might be means about as much as telling me that the earth is 6000 years old and that we're all descended from a race of super-powered goldfish because you read it on the back of a napkin you found in a dumpster. You have brought no facts with you, and therefore your argument can be dismissed.

 

You currently have 29 posts on this board. I have read most, if not all, of them. You have offered up some ideas, to be sure, but your presentation methods are lacking and since your ideas are not particularly well supported by facts I (and others) have no interest in taking you seriously as a potential contributor to this forum. You are, of course, welcome to post here as much as you wish - as far as I know, being an insufferable douchecanoe is not as of yet a bannable offence - but don't expect us to treat you as some sort of knowledgeable baseball mind until you can go 30 posts without discrediting WAR because it doesn't reflect how you value the position of closer.

 

In summation, stick around - you might learn something from people who actually do know a fair bit more than you about baseball - but be less of a jackass when you post if mockery is not your desire.

[Orgfiller]

Yep. Ace relievers are the ones who take no blame when they blow a save, since they've just rattled off a dozen in a row. Janssen blew the save today but nobody's angry at him because of the production he has built up this year.

 

Papelbon, Janssen, Rivera, Perkins, Holland, Nathan, Grilli, Kimbrel, Chapman, Mujica, Romo. That's it. Eleven guys for thirty teams, you can see what makes them so valuable.

 

Remember when we thought the market inefficiency for closers was that they needed to have tattoos, goggles or a distinct mean face on? I think it may just be the other way around! Look at the ace relievers in that list, those guys for the most part are clean, no tattoos, nice guys, vetrins, know the game. I think this guy may have just figured out the way to pick out effective ace relievers! Sorry to break it to you guys, but Cecil won't make it, there might still be time for others.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Yep. Ace relievers are the ones who take no blame when they blow a save, since they've just rattled off a dozen in a row. Janssen blew the save today but nobody's angry at him because of the production he has built up this year.

 

Papelbon, Janssen, Rivera, Perkins, Holland, Nathan, Grilli, Kimbrel, Chapman, Mujica, Romo. That's it. Eleven guys for thirty teams, you can see what makes them so valuable.

 

18/20 and the two blown saves weren't losses for him. Pretty good season on a team not presenting many save opportunities. These guys always have value, especially at his contract price. Delebar might be good but who knows for sure. Santos/McGowan/Cecil/Walker are all heavy gambles. Cecil already seems to be wearing out, Walker is pretty old for a "rookie", Santos/McGowan have chronic injuries.

 

I don't mind trading Janssen or Delebar for value. Its the idea of trading both of them I can't see. Throw in Cecil I'm even less interested.

[Boxcar]

Okay, so you're plugging your ears and ignoring the world around you. Excellent choice, I would recommend some undercooked chicken to go with it.

 

I understand that it's difficult to admit when you're wrong, but you're wrong. Just saying that what I'm posting isn't intelligent without actually positing a reason as to why that might be means about as much as telling me that the earth is 6000 years old and that we're all descended from a race of super-powered goldfish because you read it on the back of a napkin you found in a dumpster. You have brought no facts with you, and therefore your argument can be dismissed.

 

You currently have 29 posts on this board. I have read most, if not all, of them. You have offered up some ideas, to be sure, but your presentation methods are lacking and since your ideas are not particularly well supported by facts I (and others) have no interest in taking you seriously as a potential contributor to this forum. You are, of course, welcome to post here as much as you wish - as far as I know, being an insufferable douchecanoe is not as of yet a bannable offence - but don't expect us to treat you as some sort of knowledgeable baseball mind until you can go 30 posts without discrediting WAR because it doesn't reflect how you value the position of closer.

 

In summation, stick around - you might learn something from people who actually do know a fair bit more than you about baseball - but be less of a jackass when you post if mockery is not your desire.

 

BTT nailing it tonight.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Okay, so you're plugging your ears and ignoring the world around you. Excellent choice, I would recommend some undercooked chicken to go with it.

 

I understand that it's difficult to admit when you're wrong, but you're wrong. Just saying that what I'm posting isn't intelligent without actually positing a reason as to why that might be means about as much as telling me that the earth is 6000 years old and that we're all descended from a race of super-powered goldfish because you read it on the back of a napkin you found in a dumpster. You have brought no facts with you, and therefore your argument can be dismissed.

 

You currently have 29 posts on this board. I have read most, if not all, of them. You have offered up some ideas, to be sure, but your presentation methods are lacking and since your ideas are not particularly well supported by facts I (and others) have no interest in taking you seriously as a potential contributor to this forum. You are, of course, welcome to post here as much as you wish - as far as I know, being an insufferable douchecanoe is not as of yet a bannable offence - but don't expect us to treat you as some sort of knowledgeable baseball mind until you can go 30 posts without discrediting WAR because it doesn't reflect how you value the position of closer.

 

In summation, stick around - you might learn something from people who actually do know a fair bit more than you about baseball - but be less of a jackass when you post if mockery is not your desire.

 

Still not impressed. You'll have to try harder. I've followed baseball for decades. I knew the American League inside out numerous years because I was an avid rotisserie player ( extended line ups ). Somewhat dated because our pool ended when I drafted M. Rivera as my 40th pick the last season ( his rookie season ). So while I'm not tracking every minor league prospect and roster situation like I used to, I still understand how real baseball guys tend to manage their teams. As an avid Bill James fan, I was also well aware of good stats and bad stats, etc etc . I wouldn't normally post any of this, but frankly you are challenging my background and I'm not putting up with it. I also still play ball despite my age.

 

Let's see what the Jays actually do. I bet they don't trade away Janssen and Delebar. If they trade ONE of them I nailed their move. I'd also like to see them move Bonofocio, Lind, and Johnson, but suspect AA won't do it.

 

btw If you don't take me seriously I'm fine with it. Please ignore my posts entirely.

[Nox]

Let's see what the Jays actually do. I bet they don't trade away Janssen and Delebar. If they trade ONE of them I nailed their move.

 

And then what? Your thinking lines up with a bad GM? Congratulations, I guess.