Beeston doesn’t regret offseason moves "If we don't win this year, we win next year"

[Olerud363]

Tango is a consultant who worked a bit with Toronto but also has worked with other teams (such as Seattle).

 

Tango isn't even on the Blue Jays org chart anyways.

 

James and Gaston fill the same role. They are guys that Henry/Beeston rely on to throw ideas off of, shoot the s*** with.

 

You think Beeston calls up Tango?? You think because Rogers suits are good at monopolizing the Cell Phone business they can watch over and manage AA the same way Henry can manage his baseball operations?? Ridiculous.

[Olerud363]

No way Beeston would hire Friedman. Friendman would fire Murphy, Gaston, and all kinds of nameless old scouts that Beeston takes care of,.

[Olerud363]

This is just speculation. It is baseless. AA's appointment was broadly welcomed for the first few years, the type of 'young gun' GM that you are now suggesting Beeston wouldn't hire. It doesn't add up.

 

From my point of view Beeston only hired AA because he needed someone he could control to make sure his buddy Cito was protected from the "mutiny" of 2009. Keep in mind AA was hired literally 36 hours after the mutiny became public.

 

Guys like Beeston are master politicians and always escape blame. Beeston used AA to help his friends. Now if there's heat Beeston will tell the Roger's suits they need a new strategy, an older GM.

[Nox]

Toronto also has the likes of top statistician Tom Tango working for the organisation, as well as hiring cutting edge coaching in the velocity training guy. I'm sure there are many others.

 

Tango does not consult for the Jays. He has an exclusive agreement with the Cubs.

 

He did one small study for the team a couple years ago. His involvement has been largely overstated.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Beeston is phoney baloney. The four other owners in the east all have very strong "wheeler dealer" type backgrounds. Beeston is the fat, dumb, but slightly charming town board guy who made amazing renovations to his town in 2005 using revenue from these sub prime mortgage bonds he bought.

 

You're aware that Beeston doesn't own the Jays right? So essentially these wheeler dealer owners you're talking about are being compared to the President of the team who is clearly out of touch with what's going on in baseball and doesn't have the final say in big decisions. Heck, even the owner has to answer to a Board of Directors to get huge sums of money to make moves.

[Olerud363]

You're aware that Beeston doesn't own the Jays right? So essentially these wheeler dealer owners you're talking about are being compared to the President of the team who is clearly out of touch with what's going on in baseball and doesn't have the final say in big decisions. Heck, even the owner has to answer to a Board of Directors to get huge sums of money to make moves.

 

I am very aware that Beeston does not own the Jays. Trust me. I know who owns the Jays. I know who owns the red sox. I know who owns the Orioles. I know who owns the Rays.

 

You, beyond anyone else, has a consistent record of favouring young players over old guys. You even argued that Bautista should of been traded after 2010. In retrospect it could be argued that nuking the team completely, trading off all the assets, never trading a young player for older guys, that following that path would have been much better.

 

So why didn't this happen?? Because the team is being run by a politician. Appearances are favoured over analytics. Beeston doesn't own the team ofcourse. But that's a characteristic of a politician... someone in charge of something they don't own.

[Olerud363]

Tango does not consult for the Jays. He has an exclusive agreement with the Cubs.

 

He did one small study for the team a couple years ago. His involvement has been largely overstated.

 

Interesting... An exclusive agreement with the cubs. That other guy, flashman, is arguing that the "president" doesn't matter. Chooses the color of the paint and the cake that will be served (so to say) basically.

 

Well while Paul Beeston chooses the color of the paint and the cake that will be served (so to say), Theo Epstein gets Tango to sign an exclusive agreement.

 

And that is why we lose.

 

Epstein vs. Beeston.... not fair, but life isn't fair.

[Flashman]

Interesting... An exclusive agreement with the cubs. That other guy, flashman, is arguing that the "president" doesn't matter. Chooses the color of the paint and the cake that will be served (so to say) basically.

 

What are you talking about? I've argued that the president does matter, and I've praised Beeston's accomplishments.

 

Well while Paul Beeston chooses the color of the paint and the cake that will be served (so to say), Theo Epstein gets Tango to sign an exclusive agreement.

 

And that is why we lose.

 

Epstein vs. Beeston.... not fair, but life isn't fair.

 

For crying out loud, you are now hinging your entire argument on Tom Tango's employment? You're all over the place with this irrational dislike of Beeston.

[Flashman]

From my point of view Beeston only hired AA because he needed someone he could control to make sure his buddy Cito was protected from the "mutiny" of 2009.

 

Once again you are speculating, not providing evidence! Cito was under contract for that remaining year; there was nothing controversial about him staying on for one more year in a non-contending season, for heaven's sake. AA was entrusted to build for a post-Cito era.

 

Guys like Beeston are master politicians and always escape blame. Beeston used AA to help his friends. Now if there's heat Beeston will tell the Roger's suits they need a new strategy, an older GM.

 

Blame for what? Two World Series? Moving AAA to Buffalo? Convincing ownership to push the payroll to $120m? Redesigning the kit? Boosting attendances and revenue?

[Flashman]

No way Beeston would hire Friedman. Friendman would fire Murphy, Gaston, and all kinds of nameless old scouts that Beeston takes care of,.

 

So I take it that all the coaches and scouts who have been fired in the past few years were not part of this Beeston clique?

[Boxcar]

Wow, loving this new ignore list stuff! I can't see any hints that olerud363 is posting outside of people quoting him!

 

In other news, I think if Flashman truly believes that there is any reliance on statistics within the Jays FO, he's gonna be pretty disappointed. Ahh, to be young and naive once again...

[Flashman]

In other news, I think if Flashman truly believes that there is any reliance on statistics within the Jays FO, he's gonna be pretty disappointed. Ahh, to be young and naive once again...

 

Straw man. I didn't say that there is any 'reliance on statistics', and I'm not interested in that discussion. I did cite Tom Tango's involvement with the organisation that the Jays aren't completely stat-opposed, which itself was an insane argument from Olerud for Beeston's apparent incompetence.

[Boxcar]

Straw man. I didn't say that there is any 'reliance on statistics', and I'm not interested in that discussion. I did cite Tom Tango's involvement with the organisation that the Jays aren't completely stat-opposed, which itself was an insane argument from Olerud for Beeston's apparent incompetence.

 

Oh whatever you said. Tom Tango's past involvement doesn't indicate anything.

[Flashman]

Oh whatever you said. Tom Tango's past involvement doesn't indicate anything.

 

Fine. How about Jay Sartori and Joe Sheehan, then?

 

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2011/02/22/sartori_adds_beautiful_mind_to_jay_equation.html?cta=bottom&utm_expid=6682428-0.pmAbpHPsSSS1W5v3cyeVhw.2&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F

[Nox]

Fine. How about Jay Sartori and Joe Sheehan, then?

 

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2011/02/22/sartori_adds_beautiful_mind_to_jay_equation.html?cta=bottom&utm_expid=6682428-0.pmAbpHPsSSS1W5v3cyeVhw.2&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F

 

That article couldn't be more misleading. Sartori basically knows the CBA inside and out. That's it.

 

He did not "develop" software while working for the MLB. He was part of the team that hired a firm to build them EBIS which is, by all accounts, a gigantic turd sandwich.

 

Sheehan is a f***ing botanist from a 2 bit college in Ohio. If he's the only one actually doing stats for your baseball team, you're f***ed.

[Boxcar]

Fine. How about Jay Sartori and Joe Sheehan, then?

 

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2011/02/22/sartori_adds_beautiful_mind_to_jay_equation.html?cta=bottom&utm_expid=6682428-0.pmAbpHPsSSS1W5v3cyeVhw.2&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F

 

I would defer to someone with more first hand knowledge than myself in regards to Sartori. What are you arguing anyway? Are you aware that this team employs JP Arencibia as the starting catcher?

[Flashman]

That article couldn't be more misleading. Sartori basically knows the CBA inside and out. That's it.

 

Sheehan is a f***ing botanist from a 2 bit college in Ohio. If he's the only one actually doing stats for your baseball team, you're f***ed.

 

Doesn't matter either way.

 

The root of this discussion was Olerud's reasons to hate on Beeston, one of which was the insinuation that the Jays would rather go with the counsel of Cito than have stat guys in-house. The money quote: "He [sartori] also works with team statistician Joe Sheehan, providing statistical analysis and interpretation that helps the organization make better decisions on players and game situations."

[Nox]

Beeston is AA's boss.

 

The front office's over reliance on pro scouting is on him as much as it's on AA. Big picture, philosophical decisions like this that govern the direction of an organization are most certainly under the president's umbrella.

[Boxcar]

Doesn't matter either way.

 

The root of this discussion was Olerud's reasons to hate on Beeston, one of which was the insinuation that the Jays would rather go with the counsel of Cito than have stat guys in-house. The money quote: "He [sartori] also works with team statistician Joe Sheehan, providing statistical analysis and interpretation that helps the organization make better decisions on players and game situations."

 

I think you know a lot less than you think you know.

[Flashman]

I would defer to someone with more first hand knowledge than myself in regards to Sartori. What are you arguing anyway? Are you aware that this team employs JP Arencibia as the starting catcher?

 

Considering I have strongly criticised Arencibia multiple times on this forum, that makes for a redundant slight. I am not defending the on-field product one bit. The argument, which only lasts a page or so, was about defending Beeston's record from seriously irrational criticisms, one of which was the implication that the Jays are stat-averse.

[Flashman]

I think you know a lot less than you think you know.

 

I think that's a meaningless ad hom.

[Nox]

one of which was the implication that the Jays are stat-averse.

 

I hate to break it to you, but the Jays are stat averse for all intents and purposes. The employment of one under-qualified individual who the decision makers thoroughly ignore is not evidence to the contrary.

[Flashman]

I hate to break it to you, but the Jays are stat averse for all intents and purposes. The employment of one under-qualified individual who the decision makers thoroughly ignore is not evidence to the contrary.

 

You should have no reason to hate to break it to me. If that's the case, and you are a reliable source, that's the case and I'd be happy to concede the point.

[Olerud363]

You should have no reason to hate to break it to me. If that's the case, and you are a reliable source, that's the case and I'd be happy to concede the point.

 

I have no idea if the jays use stats or not... but the guys who rated sub-prime mortgages used stats... a lot of good it did them.

 

Sometimes things come down to a bunch of guys sitting in a room shooting the s***... How many games will Jose Reyes play in 2013?? How will Josh Johnson's arm hold out?? How will Dickey age?? Stats should be part of it... but only part of it. You need guys shooting the s***, speculating, trying to do their best to figure out all kinds of scenarios.

 

Bill James isn't just about stats... it's a lot of essays, thinking, writing. John Henry is about trading billion dollar assets.

 

When you have John Henry and Bill James on one side, and Beeston and Gaston on the other it's not fair.

 

You argue that Beeston and Gaston aren't really involved in the decision making... OK then. fine. If that's true my point still stands. In that case Ben Cherington has incredible mentors in James and Henry... AA does not have this.

[Boxcar]

I think that's a meaningless ad hom.

 

I don't think you understand what an ad hominem attack is. You are claiming that the Jays FO are stat-friendly, but they aren't and that's a fact. It's pure scouting and other such nonsense.

[Trouba95]

We will win this year

#FreeBoxy

 

Stop bumping old threads!!!