On base thread continued...

[Metallijay]

The only thing that he's said in this entire thread that's true is that OBP is important. Pretty much everything else is a steaming pile of crap.

 

Please explain? Everything he said was true. An organization that has everyone on the same page will be more successfull then one that doesn't. If you cannot even explain your post is qutomatically useless. {Please explain how it was a steaming pile of crap instead of trolling? Everything he said makes pefect sense. And the fact is most of his post was about OBP lol.

[John_Havok]

Sabermetrics isn't about OBP. It's about exploiting a particular aspect of baseball that other teams undervalue. In Billy Beane's case, it was OBP. It is now widely recognized that OBP is important, so OBP is itself no more Sabermetric than my left testicle. So any argument that uses a team with a high OBP as an example who has this amazing understanding of sabermetrics is baseless.

 

Using tiny sample sizes of one player in rookie ball as evidence of anything is stupid.

 

And perhaps the most telling reason that this thread is pretty much filled with garbage, is you're here agreeing with everything he's saying.

[Olerud363]

Your Farrell part is fair. I disagree, just based on that a.) Chad Mottola ended up being the hitting coach b.) Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Reyes, and Melky Cabrera are all very good at getting on base,e so we aren't anti-on base, but I do see your point and it is legitimate.

 

Since this is an on base percentage thread here is a list of key Red Sox and Blue Jays career on base percentages. Every team will have some guys that get on base, and guys that don't. But I this list makes the obvious point... the red sox are clustered at the top.... jays at the bottom. There are outliers... but the sox dealt with their sub .300 guy by sending him to pawtucket... our sub .300 guy is a rising superstar.

 

I think this list shows why Farrell would be attracted to the red sox (not only dream job). The red sox not only respect on base percentage, but respect career statistics... while the jays seem to judge their guys on their "best" one dream season.

 

1. SOX Ortiz .381

2. SOX Pedroia .372

3. SOX Nava .361

4. JAYS Bautista .360

5. SOX Napoli .356

6. SOX Ellsbury .350

7. JAYS EE .345

8. JAYS Reyes .342

9. SOX Victorino .341

10. JAYS Melky .337

11. SOX Gomes .334

12. JAYS Izturus .332

13. SOX Drew .327

14. JAYS Lawrie .324

15. JAYS Lind ,.321

16. JAYS Bonifacio .319

17. JAYS Rasmus .313

18. SOX Salty .305

19. SOX Middlebrooks .283

20. JAYS Arencibia JAYS .269

[JFD]

hard to disagree with "Olerud363" on this when there is so much data to back it up. I guess it's why the kids throw hissy fits instead of trying to prove him wrong. There is no data to prove him wrong.

 

The worst part about all this.. we have the players to be a good on base team (minus a few), and the players to drive them in. It really is an organization problem.. they don't believe on base is all that important, and if they do, they have an extremely poor execution plan. Does anyone believe the Boston Redsox would employ scrubs like JPA and Boni? at the very least they would attempt to change their approach and not let them free swing.

[John_Havok]

hard to disagree with "Olerud363" on this when there is so much data to back it up. I guess it's why the kids throw hissy fits instead of trying to prove him wrong. There is no data to prove him wrong.

 

The worst part about all this.. we have the players to be a good on base team (minus a few), and the players to drive them in. It really is an organization problem.. they don't believe on base is all that important, and if they do, they have an extremely poor execution plan. Does anyone believe the Boston Redsox would employ scrubs like JPA and Boni? at the very least they would attempt to change their approach and not let them free swing.

 

It's easy to post numbers and then draw conclusions about organizations that seem to fit the numbers when really they're nothing more than conjecture.

[JFD]

It's easy to post numbers and then draw conclusions about organizations that seem to fit the numbers when really they're nothing more than conjecture.

 

nobody said it was difficult.

 

what part of his "opinion" do you not agree with? that the blue jays are a poor on base team and have been for a long time and have shown no sign of changing, or that on base is an important part of the game? both of which are true.

[John_Havok]

Clearly you haven't read the whole thread or you'd know that I agree with the nation that OBP is very important. I also don't see how anyone could not see that currently that Jays OBP is not good enough. Those 2 points are not in dispute.

 

What's in dispute are the constant references to Farrell, like he has anything to do with OBP... Using small sample sizes as evidence of anything, and cherry picked stats.

[Metallijay]

Clearly you haven't read the whole thread or you'd know that I agree with the nation that OBP is very important. I also don't see how anyone could not see that currently that Jays OBP is not good enough. Those 2 points are not in dispute.

 

What's in dispute are the constant references to Farrell, like he has anything to do with OBP... Using small sample sizes as evidence of anything, and cherry picked stats.

 

His reference to farrell was in relation to finding pieces in the organization that have the same philosophy, learn to comprehend english. And he is right, when an entire organization is on the same page, success is more likely, a fact that went over your little head.

[Metallijay]

It's easy to post numbers and then draw conclusions about organizations that seem to fit the numbers when really they're nothing more than conjecture.

 

How can facts be conjecture? ROFL.

[Olerud363]

Clearly you haven't read the whole thread or you'd know that I agree with the nation that OBP is very important. I also don't see how anyone could not see that currently that Jays OBP is not good enough. Those 2 points are not in dispute.

 

What's in dispute are the constant references to Farrell, like he has anything to do with OBP... Using small sample sizes as evidence of anything, and cherry picked stats.

 

So if the manager doesn't have anything to do with on base percentage then who does (on the management side)?? The GM, the hitting coach?, the president?? All these people do. And one person can't change it by them selves. And that's my point. According to Lind Farrell didn't agree with Murphy. Farrell obviously believes deeply in on base percentage and was given a hitting coach who stated he "didn't believe in on base percentage."

 

Farrell believes deeply in on base percentage and found himself in an organization that appears to not believe in on base percentage... why wouldn't he want to move on to an organization that believes in the same things he does?? It wasn't "dream job" because he's from Boston (he's not). It was dream job because he wanted to be with successful people who think like he does.

 

So as I continue to update this thread I will give credit to five men... John Henry, Bill James, Larry Luchino, Ben Cherington and John Farrell. Because you are correct, it is not just Farrell alone who deserves credit... it is the five man championship caliber management team that deserve credit.

 

The Boston Red Sox are the best organization is baseball... a team that retooled amazingly without giving up a single young player or draft pick. We should be giving them all including John Farrell incredible respect and admiration.

[Knights4Cup]

Olerud363, you're my idol

 

It's clearly not just a managerial issue. It comes from up top

[Olerud363]

No just no.

 

Great post. This is the stuff I love. Snappy one sentence answers that mean nothing.

 

No analysis, no thinking, no commentary, no view point. Just drivel. You and Beeston must be best buddies.

 

The fact is that the Toronto Blue Jays are a bad organization. Stuck in a 20 year cycle of mediocroty.

 

I'm always interested to hear ways to improve the situation. But hate posts that don't say anything.

 

If you disagree with me fine. I think the Boston Red Sox are among the best 3 organizations in baseball. I find incredibly telling that they wanted John Farrell. I think John Farrell is going to be remembered with Torre and Francona.

 

But the one sentence answer is part of the problem. "No just No". "Yes just Yes".

 

I highly suspect guys like Paul Beeston have a lot of "1 scentence" meaningless interactions, but I can guarentee you that John Henry doesn't.

 

One thing is for sure. You my friend have the team you deserve.

[Olerud363]

OBP is important, we all know that. wOBA is better, but giving any credit for a teams production in OBP to Farrell is ludicrous. It's the players who play, not Farrell, not Gibbons. Do you think JPA is told that he doesn't walk enough? Yes everyday. Does he care? No.

 

 

I apologize because I think I was a bit rude to you in my reply. Thanks for being classy to just answer and not rudely.

 

I guess the Farrell thing is more of a commentary on larger issues. I do not literally think that John Farrell himself, put randomly into any organization, would improve the teams on base percentage, that is he would not have any effect on it without buy-in from upper management.

 

What I think that both Red Sox upper management and Farrell are on the same page and work well together. They like the same kind of players, and the same kind of coaches. I don't think that was the case in Toronto. I think we only heard the tip of the ice burg about why Farrell left.

[BlueJayWay]

I don't think that was the case in Toronto. I think we only heard the tip of the ice burg about why Farrell left.

Last year, before we even knew Farrell was going to leave, there were rumours of a rift between he and AA. I would love to know what went on there.

[ElNik2013]

Farrell is rumored to have asked to be allowed to interview for the Red Sox job after his first year when Francona was fired so yes, he wanted to be in Boston. It makes some sense because that's where he had coached for a few years.

[ElNik2013]

This thread has become quite.......lulzy! Thanks folks.

 

 

 

With all the Red Sox praise, it seems like that guy High85 has joined this forum.

[IronLadle]

They make some good points about Farrell and OBP, today we pinch hit Boni for Kawasaki against a lefty.

 

Boni's BA avg against LHP .172 and OBP .213

 

Kawasaki BA avg against LHP .103 and OBP .278

 

Kawasaki had the better chance of reaching base.

[dineke]

How can facts be conjecture? ROFL.

 

LOL finally this guy got banned.

[dineke]

I apologize because I think I was a bit rude to you in my reply. Thanks for being classy to just answer and not rudely.

 

I guess the Farrell thing is more of a commentary on larger issues. I do not literally think that John Farrell himself, put randomly into any organization, would improve the teams on base percentage, that is he would not have any effect on it without buy-in from upper management.

 

What I think that both Red Sox upper management and Farrell are on the same page and work well together. They like the same kind of players, and the same kind of coaches. I don't think that was the case in Toronto. I think we only heard the tip of the ice burg about why Farrell left.

 

Why is Farrell's cock so firmly down your throat? The Sox always had a high OBP team... why do you attribute that to Farrell?

[IronLadle]

 

Same link as before, when you can't talk baseball send a link.

[dineke]

Same link as before, when you can't talk baseball send a link.

 

[IronLadle]

That's right, when it's moronic and simple.......I'll send you the link. I guess it doesn't smarten you up. The video says more than words. If you claim the same the link will follow.

 

Don't won't wet your diaper, it's just a baseball forum.

[Olerud363]

July 29th 2013

 

Farrell 63-43 .345 on base

Jays 46-54 .320 on base

 

1. As ussual I am not saying that Farrell himself is solely responsible for the sox on base percentage... it is more like a kid who makes it to MIT. MIT is good, and the kid is good, and they dream of each other and find each other...

 

2. We have made a little bit of progress in on base percentage since I started the thread. We have made a correspondingly small amount of progress in winning percentage. However we are now have no chance at the pennant.

 

3. The Jays are about average in on base percentage, and offense in general. They are bad because the pitching is a awful.

 

I don't know what to say about this. I will update a few more times before seasons end... but it's not really appropriate to go balistic about this issue. It is not necessarrily solved, being average isn't the same as being "championship" quality... but with 5 playoff spots if you can get the offense average and the pitching average and you have some luck...

 

Any way major problem is obviously pitching... not as easy to go on about... I mean is there the pitching equivalent of Dwayne Murphy?? Some guy who says "I don't care how many the pitchers walk... pitchers walks are overrated... they can walk as many as they like... clog the bases up... it only helps... not all those walks are comin around to score... as long as they prevent rbi hits everything will be fine."

 

You see it's harder to complain about the pitching without "that guy". Anybody got any stupid Pete Walker quotes??

[Olerud363]

Just say Red Sox for the love of god.

 

Keep in mind I live in Red Sox land and I have to deal with Red Sox fans all the time. And according to them Farrell is a princely genius... According to some in Cleveland he is a jewel of a human being...

 

There are dumb red sox fans and smart red sox fans, but they all love Farrell. They thank me every day for him, and rub it in... Toronto Blue Jays just a development system for the sox... not a real organization.

 

Just humor me... I don't mean to annoy you with the Farrell stuff... if you're annoyed just think how it is for me to hear about his princely deeds every day on NESN and from the red sox fans. It's not easy.

 

Red sox, Farrell, Big papi, sweet caroline, you suck, blue jays suck, get a real team, Farrell, it's all I'm exposed to really.

[Atothe]

Keep in mind I live in Red Sox land and I have to deal with Red Sox fans all the time. And according to them Farrell is a princely genius... According to some in Cleveland he is a jewel of a human being...

 

There are dumb red sox fans and smart red sox fans, but they all love Farrell. They thank me every day for him, and rub it in... Toronto Blue Jays just a development system for the sox... not a real organization.

 

Just humor me... I don't mean to annoy you with the Farrell stuff... if you're annoyed just think how it is for me to hear about his princely deeds every day on NESN and from the red sox fans. It's not easy.

 

Red sox, Farrell, Big papi, sweet caroline, you suck, blue jays suck, get a real team, Farrell, it's all I'm exposed to really.

 

Then move from that s***** ass city

[Olerud363]

Then move from that s***** ass city

 

Don't live right in Boston, though am there fairly often... near enough that I have to deal with it all... and near enough to NYC that I have to deal with that too.

 

I like it here.... NE U.S. Vermont, North Easter NY, Western Mass, great places to live. Don't really want to move... even if I did would be tough though because of work and wife's work...

 

Worst thing about it here is that Tim Horton's tried to move in and was totally demolished by Dunkin' Donuts. Full Assault, In Rhode Island and Conneticut there was new Tim horton's... full scale executive style DD was built right beside them, right away...

 

Bad things....

 

1. No Tim Horton's.. likely never will be... they are moving into Buffalo and Rochester but much farther East and DD attacks aggressively.

 

2. John Farrell Mensa fans... MIT Mensa members that love John Farrell. Impossible to argue with them.

[Olerud363]

lol

 

Holy s***. Last we all hated each other. At least you all hated me (justifiably so).

 

May 29th 2014

 

Jays - 32-22 .333 on base percentage 1st in American League in on base, 1st in AL east

....

Farrell - 23-29 .327 on base percentage (5th in on base).

 

Still have to fear and respect the crafty bastard. Gotta keep ahead in the on base race. If the Jays keep leading the league in on base things will turn out fine.

 

As my friend JSFIP said walks are overrated... true indeed. But on base percentage isn't. If a team hits .240 they gotta take some walks. If they hit .300 they don't .

[Olerud363]

 

Gotta keep ahead in the on base race. If the Jays keep leading the league in on base things will turn out fine.

 

 

Final 2015 numbers - .340 on base percentage - 93 wins, first in A.L. East.

 

Buck and Pat go on and on about how on base percentage is over-rated... the boys gotta hit.

 

Yes Buck, Yes Pat, drink more... other Jays teams have hit more homers... this team was the most patient in the league...

 

If they did what you said they would of scored 750 runs like in 2010.