Carlos Danger

I have no problem with this on the 93 Jays team.. But who on the 2015 Jays should have been batting lead off? Wasn't Travis hurt half the time..? It was not Carlos Danger is my name, who decided to bat him lead-off.. It was John Gibbons and I am pretty sure AA. If AA wanted just a great D guy to bolster our problems in LF he could have got many other better defenders I would suppose. Many guys on here are on another thread slobbing Gibbons knob saying how great he is and he shouldn't leave. Yet on that Juggernaut 2015 team, Revere was batting lead-off.. So both Gibbons and AA were f***ed up and didn't know you HAVE to put one of your three best hitters in the lead-off spot? I don't get it.. AA and Gibbons are God's but they didn't know what they were doing when they put Revere at lead-off??

Fake News. I never said Ben Revere was THE reason. I clearly stated that even with a huge run differential at the trade deadline we were a 500 or below team... WHY???? We had super duper HUGE boner run differential, how could that be??? 1. Because our defense needed tightening!! Reyes, a platoon of Valencia and Calabello or whomever we were putting out there in LF were costing us a lot of runs. 2. We still needed another starter and Dickey sucked. 3. Our pen needed help 4. We lost a number of close/low scoring games. We were not winning a lot of games where we were not scoring something like 5 or 6 plus runs. Revere helped significantly with the D in LF. As AA stated, he gave us an element that the offence did not have.. The ABOVE has been my whole point since we started this debate. The offence to a degree in 2015, more so in 2016 had trouble scoring runs when we were not hitting the long ball or being able to manufacture a run. Revere was a part, only a part (Obviously Tulo and Price were the keys) of our emergence from a very good team playing 500 ball to a division winner and an ACLS participant, but he added an element we did not have and was useful.

I guess Cora is a better poker player than Gibby.. Not surprised with our legacy pen.. But that sucks for the guys..

Borucki = Halladay

Manufactured run MFrsss SPEED. Power to the fast Blackman!! Word!

Still a rookie, this is his Mulligan.. don't let it happen again!

Ouch...

Agree 100% We had the best run differential of anyone in 2015 and we had that prior to the trade deadline. Where were we at the trade deadline, a team floating around or 2 games under 500 if I recall. We should have been winning much more with the run differential, but we were not. AA knew this, so he made our D much better for one, Tulo and Revere and obviously went out and got the best pitching he could. However, Price was only going to pitch every fifth day and the guy from Seattle He also knew that a run differential stat can be because you have a bunch of wins where you blow teams out and score 8-10 runs, but when you look at the standings, you are still a 500 team because you are losing a lot of 1 run games and games in general. Some of that has to do with the pen but, from the words of the mighty AA himself about our vaunted 2015 offense, talking about Ben Revere. “He’s someone that brings an element to our lineup that we don’t have,” Anthopoulos says, referring to Revere’s speed. “Just having that pest . . . who can put pressure on the defense, steal a base when everybody in the park knows he’s going, it’s just a completely new element for our offence.” Yes, we had success and it was great.. I am old enough to have grown up expecting success every year with the Jays when I was a kid/teenager. However, after we beat Texas and Baltimore the one game, we had our ass handed to us in the ALCS.. In 2015, it was Dickey, the pen to some degree, but we got flat shut out, ZERO runs game 1 to set the tone. In the 2016 ALCS we couldn't score with a Brad Pitt Doppelganger at a Thai whorehouse. Again, all I am saying is we needed, and need a balanced attack that did not always rely so much on the sluggers and Revere added an element to that in the 2015 season.

You spelled colored wrong.

You mean Dayton Moore the GM of the 2015 WS Champions that beat us in 6 games in the ALCS, two of those games basically blowouts.. My point being, he is at the bottom of the league due to lack of current talent/ or money not philosophy. So, now he forgot how to build a baseball team..? They didn't have their best hitter by far at lead off in 2015.. Going purely by stats, Reveres's number were better than Escobars. (Escobar somehow became ALCS MVP) but season stats wise Revere out performed him..

I honestly can't tell if you are being serious here?

Didn't we try that for a few games?? I could swear we did for a while... The issue I have is, so if he has a good OBP and he gets on, then you really need two more hits short of a HR to get him home. Yes, I think he led the league was near the top a few years for doubles, but if he is not hitting a double, or HR, you need a lot of s*** to go right to get him home. A guy like that will rarely hit a triple. So, gets on with a walk, base hit or much less times a double. So you get him to third with less than two outs. There is a ball hit to mid right field or the SS position at double play depth. You would 100% send a guy like Revere in both cases, hope they don't make the perfect throw. You might have to hold a guy like Overbay... Overbay is rarely going 1st to 3rd or able to stay out of a double play with his speed. So, % wise in the long run, do you score more runs just because a guy has more power if they have mas o menos the same OBP?

Ok: 1. Some of you guys obviously did not read the thread and are just jumping on the pile with totally unrelated BS. NEVER did I compare Revere and McKinney. The premise that started this thing is that I said I believe McKinney is the first true lead off hitter since Ben Revere. A few key f***ing words here to keep in mind going forward. First Lead off hitter SINCE. NOT he is the same, NOT fnn McKinney is like Revere. Some of you need to go back to basic reading comprehension and get your heads out of the spread sheets. Then there was some debate about Revere being a s*** lead off hitter, blah,blah, blah.. The FACT is, he was true lead-off hitter by the assessment of the majority of GMs, not internet trolls who self-admittedly live in their Mom's basement. When he was with the Blue Jays, he put up numbers that you were solid. We can debate solid, but suck on a big dick if you want to try and tell me that an over .319 BA, 354 .OBP one of the lowest K rates in the game, and speed does not qualify as a decent lead -off hitter. 2. One of the posters said we lost game 6 of the 2015 ALCS by 1 run, and said Revere had 5 ABs, EE and JB only 4. The following posts were all in response to that. I never f***ing said that I want a team made up of slap hitting speedsters. Then a bunch of you throw ISO blah, blah blah at me. The fact of the matter is f***ers, we lost! We did NOT win with our vaunted boner making offense we lost,. then we got beat like a red headed step child (Spanky is that you?) the next year in the ALCS. I think you all must work for the Government where doing well and mediocrity is rewarded and ok. I work for the private sector and my employer demands results and success or I am fnn gone. Go suck a big multi-colored cock filled with advance metrics during the season which meant s*** in the ACLS in both 2015 and even more so in 2016. Yes, our pitchers did not get the job done. However, it was not Revere who made the last out with the tying run on 3b and the go-ahead on 3rd, it was the 2015 Mother f***ing VP JD. Revere did make an out that inning with a K. However, % wise, going back to stats.. Martin singled to start the inning.. Good for him, I think he should be batting no lower than 7, but anyway.. They bring in a PR (SPEED) Pompey steals 2b. (SPEED) Pompey steals 3rd (SPEED). Pillar walks (small miracle occurred) Navarro Ks, BAD Out, Ks kill! Pillar steals 2b (SPEED) Runners on 2nd and 3rd, no out, top 9, Jays down by 1. Teams with runners on 2nd and 3rd 0 outs have averaged 1.45 runs Then you have Revere at the plate. He only Kd 17 times in the whole season looking, he was a very low K contact guy, speedy and hard to double up. Our chances there to tie the game at some point that inning are higher % wise then EE, JB or Donaldson getting a hit.. and I would add sac fly. Percentage wise when you need one run with a Sac etc I would put Revere there time and time again even though in this case he ended up Kng. The percentages over time based on his K rate, contact rate and speed tell you there is a greater % of the Jays getting a run then other types of hitters. I never said, nor do I believe we need a team full of Ben fnn Revere.. NO.. I stated we need a balance attack and the ability to score runs when our power is getting shut down which many times it does in the playoffs when you are facing Aces and long bullpens that are the best in the game. This example is more prevalent in the 2016 ALCS.. Thank you also for the comparison to Harold Reynolds. I have only ever heard that comparison before with an ex-girlfriend when we were naked (FYI-Ia m a white guy). Like the first time, I am flattered. Harold Reynolds was the most in-tune analyst during the whole "7th" inning". He knew the ball was live before anyone else. He made accurate assessments of all that was going on and as a former MLB infielder for many years, understand the dynamics of pressure on the D, speed down the line, putting the ball in play that some of you nerds scoff at. He has been a paid analyst for ESPN, FOX and MLB Network. So, I am proud to be compared to Harold and have no problem on being on the opposite side, not wrong side, opposite side of a bunch of guys who do this s*** for free from their Mom's basement. I like everyone here, and enjoy the board, but some of you cant't see the forest through the trees with your spin of various "advance metrics" and cum gobbler cultism of everything in baseball old school is bad=wrong. PS: OPS is a weighted stat that makes guys like Colby Rasmus look good. PSS: How the f*** can you accurately project a teams wins or a player's WAR etc when you have no fnnn idea if he will catch his girlfriend hosting the visiting locker room gang bang, get a divorce, or a sick family member and head is in the clouds.. injuries, legal issues, whatever, too many variables to make an accurate statistical prediction with to many human variables. Just wanted to get the two PSSs of my chest;) Thanks for your applause...Don't forget to tip your waiter..

Average by what standard? .318 BA and a .357 OBP... and low Ks.. is bad? What some people seem to forget is that before Bautistas HR in game 5 of the ALDS, Martin to his credit put the ball in play and was fast down the line. Then they had a speedster going down the line in Rivera who put the ball in play.. Then a speedster in to PR broke up possible double play at the plate. In game 3 of the 2016 ALDS Martin put the ball in play, even thought it was a tailor made DP ball, and to his credit again hustled down the line rushing Odor.. allowing Donaldson to come home. We lost a lot of one run games because our offense was one dimensional and when we were not hitting a HR, we had a hard time manufacturing a run. The percentages of a fast guy getting on with a single, stealing 2b, getting bunted over and coming into score on a sac fly are much higher than a guy hitting a HR or two guys hitting two doubles etc.. Especially when even the best hitters get out 7 out of 10 times and only the elite HR hitters will get a Hr in more than 30% of the games during a 162 game season (assuming 50 Hrs hit over different games). What stats are you using to say Ben Revere was a bad hitter with the Blue Jays? OPS? EE and JB were horrible in the 2016 ACLS. In the 2015 ACLS we had all the HR hitters but KC was able to manufacture more runs and killed us with singles and doing the little things.. I believe you need a balanced attack and speed never slumps, putting the ball in play and low Ks has a lot of benefits that end up adding up.

What part of Revere's offense was s***** for a lead off hitter when he was with the Blue Jays???

I used Stub Hub when I went to the Rogers Center in July. I read that I am able to use the bar codes on my cell, however I was nervous and with my family so I had the Concierge at my hotel print them out. Turned out I would have been fine with my cell. The only issue is if your cell freezes, battery dies, you drop it etc, you are screwed.. So my advice is if it is not a PITA to print them, print them. If it is, then just go with your cell, but make sure you have a full battery and don't drop it') Edit to add, I know my example was Rogers center, but Yankee stadium does accept mobile bar codes from Stubhub. Other sites they might not, Stub Hub they do.

Give the Security guard a raise, if it were not for him taking out Grichuck, Hernandez would not be in the game😉

He was trying to get out the way of Smoak, I don't think it is is fault.

Ok, guys some valid points. So, do you think McKinney is a suitable lead-off hitter going FWD, (however you like your lead-off hitters). Do you accept the premise we have not had a solid lead off hitter the past two/three seasons?

Again, I am not and NEVER said McKinney is like Ben Revere. I simply stated, IMO, he is the first true lead off hitter we have had since Revere, and before Revere, Reyes. I am by no means saying they are the same type of player. I am stating they were true lead -off hitters, like them or not and IMO Mckinney is a solid lead off hitter (so far) and the first we have had since 2015. I have stated that my comparison to McKinney is Bret Gardner, who is also a successful lead off hitter.

IMO, high OBP, contact hitter with low Ks, speed, in the sense it puts pressure on/distracts the pitcher when on base, puts pressure on the D. A guy who can go 1st to 3rd based on the premise your RBIs guys are coming up next but might not always get a double or HR etc.

The whole point of my origional post is that I believe Mckinney is a true lead off hitter, the first one we have had since Revere. You have to disagree with two points to disagree with my statement. 1. Ben Revere was not a true lead off hitter and that we have had a true lead off hitter since, up until McKinney. What part of my startement is not correct or factual?

Your stull stuck in the Bill James era like many of the guys on this board. Even Bill James has admitted that there are many flaws in his metrics. The Cubs GM, World Series Winning Cubs, philoshpy is a fusion of both analytics and some old school. Some guys on this board have argued an out is an out. Mileninal Bull s***! A speedy contact hitter that puts the ball and play and does not K at a high rate puts more pressure on the D. Then when he is at 1B puts more pressure in the pitcher, and allows the manager more options. Having this type of hitter come to the plate more frequently and the ability to manufacture a run, ends up paying off. Especially in one run tie games. But go ahead and put some fat ass station to station guy in the lead off spot because he walks a lot and has a higher OPS etc (weighted stat). Lack of a true lead off hitter is a reason AA went and got Ben Revere for the stretch run. It has contributed in part of the reason our offence has sucked when faced with a half decent pitcher and we have had a poor results in one run games.

He had a .354 OBP, over .300 BA, low K contact hitter with speed and stolen bases. I am not saying he was Rickey Henderson but we have not had anyone close to that since.

I never said Revere was great, I stated he was the last true lead off hitter we have had.