Olerud363

Not so sure about the JJ draft pick. They have to offer him 12 million. If we get the draft pick I'll consider it a small victory. If he doesn't go 18-8 with the red sox next year.... that would even be a victory.

Do we even see Morrow?? Isn't having issues?? Like the other day JJ had issues but we were suppose to see him in a couple of days anyway, but we didn't.

I actually looked it up the other day. Can't remember the name. Vice president of Rogers media I think. I think on the official org chart that guy is directly above Beeston. But I doubt they have a conventional boss/employee relationship. It is more like if you inherit a farm and you don't know about farming, so you get some guy who used to farm to run the farm for you, and your loaded anyway so you don't pay to much attention, and the guy seems to be doing OK, but for all the attention you pay he might be feeding dead prostitutes to the pigs. My impression is it's kind of like that, but I'm not an insider... that's just my feel for the situation.

At this point I think they need to fire Beeston. Start with Beeston and his consultants, and any scout who recomended these moves. Keep Gibbons and AA for now, let the new president decide their fate.

I do wonder what the communication is like between Beeston and above Beeston... whatever that is. I mean is there anybody to bust on AA for spending Rogers extra 50 million on this?? I have to think Beeston isn't going to bust on AA... this could of all been his idea (or one of his conultants) anyway. I am sure AA isn't happy. But does he sweat bullets like he would if he had spent George Steinbrenners money?? Or Mark Cuban's??

No he won't be DFA'd... he'll just be sent to Buffalo because he has options left.

I'd be fine with that. But I'm guessing 71 wins and another Deck McGuire or something with next years pick.

I think people were saying the same about Aaron Hill after he left and started hot with Arizona. Why not once the guys get demurphed they often hit pretty well.

He's not that far off his career numbers. And actually he's allready had a couple seasons of .850 ops. So I'm not sure why he wouldn't be able to maintain it. He might not. But it's no different then what he did for the whole year in 2010 or 2007. He's only 31.

Given everything that happened. I mean. There are no good choices. But it's absolutely mind boggling that after all this, raising the payroll to 120 million and trading all the prospects we arrive at Ramon Ortiz. I'd just like to see Nolin, or Tepara. Or stretching Loup. The season is such a dissapointment, just don't want to see anyone else pitching that is older than I am.

I certainly don't mean to troll. Since Pat Gillick left it's been like ground hog day. Every season dissapoints in it's own way. The organization seems to be behind it's rivals in terms of progressive baseball thinking. The same characters always seem to be involved somehow. Beeston, Gaston, Buck Martinez, John Gibbons and I like John Gibbons... but he is now one of those reoccurring characters now. The team on base percentage is always in the bottom half. The Canadian assistant GM takes over as GM and is going to outscout the world (Gord Ash or AA?? same story). The pitching is sometimes good, sometimes not. They're never bad enough to get a real good draft pick. I mean we just aquired a former cy young award winner and are losing like crazy anyway... Is it 95 when we got Cone?? Or is it 1997 when we got Clemens?? No it's 2013. But it feels like those years. Fair or not I've just come to think of the front office as incompetent. It's not just this year, it's a 20 year thing, with this year just representing patterns that I've seen before.

I don't get why this thread is so bad. He said it will likely take 92 wins to make the playoffs. That's about what it took last year to get one of the wild card spots. I guess he doesn't really quantify what the chances are. He indicates the chances are zero. Which isn't true, there is some chance. What it is exactly I don't know. So maybe that's why it's a bad thread?? Because he doesn't quantify how bad things are?? Would it be OK if he quantified how bad things are?? I heard maybe 5% chance somewhere. Is that OK?? Or is that considered negative too??

Fair enough. I don't have inside information on this. But just from what's publically available it's obvious that the blue jays don't have the same kind of presence as Boston does in John Henry, or New York does with the Strienbrenners. Passionate baseball savy ownership that is involved at least week to week with the baseball decision making.

And I don't think we got anything for KJ. We gave him arb after 2011 I think... and he accepted?? Then after 2012 you needed to give him a 12 million dollar offer. We did not obviously. baseball ref has AZs multi year park factor at 105, and Rogers center at 103. Slight difference but not huge. Hill had a better home spilt in 2012... so some guys argue it was the park. But it wasn't. I couldn't find his Toronto splits from 2011 (bbref has them mixed with Arizona) but in 2010 he had about a .600 ops on the road, .700 in Rogers center. In 2012 it was around .830 road and ,930 home. Exactly the same difference... so you can't say it's the stadium. #FDM... or in this organization make him a coach or "consultant".

KJ would look better then them as well.

For Roy Halladay in the middle of his best 4 year run... we get 1 toolshed who can't hit. 1 goof pitcher in between his first and second Tommy John. 0.5 38 year old knucleballers with a 5something era. As always these situations are in flux... maybe we can hope this is the low point of the Halladay return.

On a real team someone would call the Beest about this and the following type conversation would take place. Beest - Alex, the Beest here, got a call from upstairs asking about Ortiz. What's up with that?? Who is he?? Alex - He's a bit of a journeyman Paul... I don't know.... things are getting a bit crazy. Beest - They ain't happy upstairs. They're gonna have our heads Alex. Can you do anything. Can we turn this around?? Alex - I don't know Paul. I don't know.... Beest - I'm just giving you a heads up. No ones happy upstairs. Don't get me wrong. Nothing crazy going to happen over the summer. We're OK for a few months. But come September, if things don't turn around they're gonna be looking at us closer. The both of us. Just be prepared. The fact that this converstation wouldn't take place is what's wrong with the organization.

I would be happy with just a good regular who is OK from year to year,, and doesn't do anything (Hill, Wells) so insulting that he needs to be traded for nothing or basically released on Waivers (Rios) A multi-year regular who doesn't implode into seasons so bad that he needs a "fresh start". Really. Have we had that since Green and Delgado?? Wells no he imploded.... Snider didn't develop... Lind 1 good year and imploded.... Hill imploded...,. Rios same... Hinske traded after he imploded? Jose Cruz? Released before 30. Bautista and EE could be in the middle of multiple good years, but if "miracle at 29" is our development strategy can we atleast call up Nerych and Laroche??

A Mark Cuban like figure. Or a guy like Jim Balsillie. An owner. A top dog, not a politician. A trader, a shammer, a salesman, a maniac, an entrepeuner, a free market capitalist, a guy the politicians hate. A rebel, with some degree of mental problems. A guy who walks his own path, doesn't where a suit, doesn't care about shaking hands. A guy who didn't complete business school. A guy who has no friends and doesn't need them. That's what needed. A guy who doesn't shmooze. A guy who likes building things better than marketing them. An alpha male who frightens the other dogs. The president of the team works for this guy. The GM works for the president. If things go wrong someone pays. The game is to win not to hire your friends. If the team doesn't score enough runs, if a trade doesn't work out, if a draft pick doesn't work out, if a scouting report isn't right the person repsonsible is evaluated, seriously and with urgency, and eliminated if that is required. Everyone fears the top dog. The president isn't the guy in charge, the president (Beeston's position) is just another guy living in fear of the top dog. It's this type of top dog that's needed.

This is actually a good point. And in a larger context. There is something wrong with this organization. It does just a terrible job at establishing major leaguers. 0. Unknown draft pick. 1. Minor league hot shot 2. Major Leaguer with questions. 3. Major Leaguer with single successful season. 4. Major leaguer with multi year run of success. When is the last time we got anybody to 4?? Delgado?? Halladay I guesse if we include pitchers. Nowadays we don;'t even get anyone to 3. Last guy we got to stage 3. was Lind. Romero I suppose when we include pitchers. Typically in the J.P. era guys would get to 3. and then regress back to 2 (Lind, Hill, Wells, Rios)... but now we can't even get anyone to stage 3. (Rasmus, Lawrie, Snider, Thames, Cooper).

And the good thing that will be messed up is?? our current powerhouse team?? Ramon Ortiz's comeback?? If Loup's mechanics are bad then he could get injured in the bullpen anyway.

Yeah. And I think with the state of the rotation you can almost do it in a safe way. Do a couple of "temporary" piggy back starts and if one of those guys is looking good for multiple innings, stretch it out a bit more. Or when Ramon Ortiz implodes it'll be a good chance to do it in a non-pressure situation.

I don't think anybody knows if stretching Cecil out would be stupid or not. That's why you try it. If Cecil could return to 2010 starting form, what he has done before, that would help. Maybe Loup is the better choice though. He has looked pretty smooth in his multiinning outings. He looks like the kind of guy who could get through 7 on 90 pitches. That might all change once he gets passed 3 innings... I don't know.

And ofcourse in Blue Jays land these are all better options then stretching out Cecil, Loup or Lincoln. Because - Brett Cecil can never return to his 2010 form even though he is throwing better than ever. Aaron Loup can't pitch 4 innings even though he has great control and has looked good in 3, and Brad Lincoln can't because... a few reasons. I understand these guys likely won't be good. But there's a chance for upside. Look at it this way the only chance to save the season is that someone surprises the heck out of us. Cecil or Loup or Brad Lincoln, or Adam Lind, or Kawasaki. Or that Jim Neirych (sp?) guy. Every move has to be made with regards to upside. This is a bad team with lots of good relievers. Who cares if we mess that up. What will we be left with?? A bad team with less good relievers. But that being said Jamie Moyer it should be. 25 years of proven experience in the starters role. Can't beat that. Mark Beurhle has reached about the same point at 35, so they can do bullpens together and figure out how to get hitters out without anything left.

You think Goerge W. Bush and Dick Cheney have mental illness. I don't think so. They had a lot smart guys trying to figure out threats to the U.S., trying to figure out what the world would be like after the Iraq war, how long it would last, how much it would cost. All the projections were wrong. A lot of "smart" economists made predictions in 2005 that were totally wrong. People like to think that a select few geniuses "predicted" the 2008 crisis, but that's bull. These people merely structured there investments assuming a crisis would come, but they weren't sure when. Then the "stimulus" was suppose to stop the crisis. It didn't... atleast not as predicted. Human's are bad at predicting one step ahead. But people live their lives according to "predictions" and hate uncertainty so will fight insanely to keep the illusion of prediction alive. That is why the superscouts are so loved. They can predict exactly what players will become and make the world comfortable and orderly. Cecil has changed his workout program completely since his last run at starting... and actually he wasn't that bad anyway. Cecil 2010 would be fine as a 4th/5th starter. It was only in 2012, with the loss of velocity that he completely fell apart. Anyway I'm not saying I know which of these guys, Loup, Cecil, Lincoln, maybe even Rogers could start. Just saying the jays need to find a good way to find out. Start stretching all of them out a bit and if it's working stretch them a bit farther. With the way the starters have been pitching there should be plenty of opportunity for this anyway.