Olerud363

Why would green lie about this?? And Olerud too basically saying the same thing?? And if you search "Cito Olerud", "Cito Green", "Cito Snider", you find stories about each of them being told to pull the ball,.

It must be a conspiracy. All these guys are out to get Cito for no reason. Or maybe because Bob McCowan paid them to.

Hey that's great work. So it looks like his pull percentage went down a bit from 92 to the big year in 93?? Is that correct?? That would go against the conventional wisdom that he learned to pull in 93. In 96 his pull percentage went way up otherwise it's pretty stable. Olerud's 94 and 95 were typical for a hitter of his style in a down year. There was probably nothing "wrong", Guys bounce up and down a bit, and Olerud would bounce back up with Mets and Seattle... A look at other elite line drive hitter's down years.... Goerge Brett age 25 .294 9 62 Will Clark age 29 .283 14 73 Mark Grace age 27 .273 8 58

Gibby actually seems to let releivers go multiple innings. So it would be possible to get through a game with a young pitcher 5 or 6 innnings, 90-100 pitches then 2 relievers then Jansenn. We do ussually have an 8 man bullpen anyway.

If Murphy can't get another job... then there's something wrong with him. Can't get a job as a roving minor league hitting instructor somewhere?? Then maybe it's Murphy's fault. Not anything for AA to worry about it. Maybe no organization in baseball will hire him because he's on the record saying on base percentage doesn't matter. Blue Jays rule #87: Need to forever employee old road apples that don't believe in on base percentage because all other oranizations now believe in on base percentage and won't hire such road apples.

Someone linked to a Shawn Green story where Shawn was not allowed to go to the cage without Willie Upshaw. Something about... I don't even know. He went to get advice from Iorg or something?? Anyway maybe it's time to implement the same policy for DM. Not allowed around the cage.

Mike. I think we need Cito Gaston back. It is risky so I have an idea that we start Cito as interim hitting coach?? Announce that it is just until Reyes comes back. I know Cito doesn't work well with young players, so send Lawrie and Rasmus down and replace them with Derosa and Rajai Davis, who both could work great with Cito. Keep in mind we say this is only temporary until Reyes comes back. If it works we could promote Cito to manager when Reyes comes back. If it doesn't work Cito goes back to retirement, and we get Chad Mottolo back, and call Lawrie, Rasmus up. There's really no risk since we aren't expected to play well until Reyes comes back anyway. So this is just a plan to sort of test and see if Cito could manage again. What do you think?? It sort of has an escape hatch if it doesn't work.

I've said a few times that cronyism is a problem in this organization. And this is a prime example. In this organization you don't hand in your blackberry. You don't give up your keys. You don't have your picture sent down to security with orders not to ever let you back in.

I'd have to look at the spray charts sometime... I recall Olerud always using all fields. I remember him pulling homers with authority to right in 90-92. I always remember him being a all-fields hitter. Then they tried to change him. And actually one of things that hurt Olerud was the strike. In 94 he was just getting hot when the strike hit. His final numbers were .297 12 67. But in a full season he might of crept over .300, got close to 20 homers, 100 rbis so it could of been .305 18 90 or something... which looks a lot better. Then the next year was a strike year two, with 18 games gone. So without the strike seasons Oleruds numbers look better and the imrpession that he's struggling isn't so much. But by 96 I remember he was really trying to pull the ball. A lot of ground outs to the right side. That's my memory anyway. Be interesting to look the sprary charts sometimes, I am sure they are out there somewhere.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitting-Edge-Tom-Robson/dp/073603336X#reader_073603336X The forward is written by Olerud. He claims he was a opp-field, middle field hitter until 93. After 93 he got into bad habits trying to pull the ball. Doesn't blame the coaches... but I suspect he's just being classy. After meeting Tom Robson he got out of bad habits and almost won another batting title. I listened to Jays games regularly in the mid 90s and many times heard Cito saying Olerud needed to pull more. A couple of times in particular stand out. In 96 I think Olerud won a game with a homer in extra innings... I remember the next day Cito gushing saying Olerud was starting to remind him of a left handed Joe Carter.... In 96 Olerud hit 14 first half homers and it looked like he might challenge 30 with the new "pull" approach. In the second half he only hit 4. I remember another time Olerud almost won it in extra inning again, with a huge drive that went foul into the fifth deck. I remember Cito also being proud of this. It was a strike, but Cito said he told Olerud what pitch to look for, and Olerud listened, and they almost won... it was a strike Cito!!!! I also remember when Cito was hired as hitting coach in 99 there was a Shaun Green quote, that he wasn't going to change his style. Green was traded a month later anyway.

The Arencibia thing is kind of weird. Currently sporting a .250 on base average and 2-45 bb/k (apr.). No hit tool at all. Power yes. And obvious concerns about his defense. Yet he is on track to get more playing time then any catcher in blue jays history. He hits 3rd or 4th sometimes, he's DHd. And they refuse to bring up Thole. It's like there saying "you can have suspect defense. You can have an on base percentage beyond bad, you can have a historically horrible k/bb ratio, but we will let you be a key part of the offense and play everyday."

If there is truly a pattern of players not reaching there career averages then someone or something is to blame. Otherwise it should even out over time. Which it still might as the year goes on. We will have to see.

This is very true. And it is why Murphy and Cito are such polarizing figures. Their approach is aggressive pull hitting. The hitters lose a few points off their on base percentage because they walk less, then a few more because they never hit to the opposite field, or choke up. Double whammy to the on base percentage.

There are many quotes from Dwayne Murphy and Cito Gaston saying on base percentage is not useful. I'm not diggin them up right now, the quotes are well known. Maybe I'll find them later. Saying literally "the entire organization doesn't believe on on base percentage" might not be true. What is true is that the organization is not able to construct a team with an on base percentage high enough to compete in the A.L. east. I can't see how having Cito Gaston (consultant) and Dwayne Murphy (1st base coach) around helps to this end given Gaston and Murphy's record and statements. If they do care about on base percentage why are the keeping Gaston and Murphy around in positions where could conceivably still influence hitters??

I've been through this many times. And I get angry because of it. Pat Gillick was the one who constructed those teams and fought Gaston on all kinds of issues. If it was up to Gaston alone The 92/93 blue jays would probably tried to hit 300 homeruns and won about 80 games. Let's start with the basics. Pat Gillick leaves after 94, Cito has more power and.... 1. Makes John Olerud a platoon player because he refuses to pull the ball... Olerud recovers his career with the Mets. 2. Team on base percentage starts dropping after Gillick leaves, reaches a low in 97. Only starts to recover when Gaston is fired. 3. Pat Gillick proves he can construct high on base percentage championship teams with 3 other organizations. Gaston is never hired by another organization. 4. Team on base percentage is OK in 98/99. Starts to drop again in 00/01 when Cito is rehired as hitting coach. They have to fire Cito as hitting coach after only 2 years. 5. Team on base percentage recovers somewhat in J.P. era. Team record in runs scored in 2003, good hitting team in 2006. Overall 2002-2007 team on base is OK. Not amazing but some good years and bad. Just a normal organization really. 6. Gaston rehired in 2008 as manager, stays as consultant after "clubhouse mutiny". Team on base percentage horrible since 2008. The blue jays had high on base percentage teams in 1992/1993 because Pat Gillick created them and had a strong enough personality to deal with Gaston's garbage. Pat Gillick has created good hitting teams with many organizations and did so in 1992/93 despite Gaston, not with his help.

Rasmus and Boni were both much better with other organizations. They both had a .330 career on base percentages with thier former organizations. Now come to Toronto and all of a sudden they are absuolutely horrible?? I gotta think the coaching or environment must have something to do wtih it....

They're both owned by Rogers so they could be run together. You are probably right in that they are both different businesses with different priorities. But if a true culture changing president is hired who knows... maybe they'll want to project class and intelligence in every aspect of the organization.

It will be interesting to see if Wilner changes his tune soon... if they do ever decide to fire the Beest and do a complete culture change Wilner the cheer-leader will have to go. Right now Wilner just wants his nice paycheck... maybe get the play by play gig full time. But if all of a sudden if there is a new Sherriff in town, getting rid of stench everywhere he see's it Wilner's only path to survival will be to frame himself as the cranky outsider who was oh so critical of the 1994-2013 decades of disaster. I would say when Wilner changes his tune could be a sign something is brewing....

Exactly. I had a guy tell me he liked the Jays moves but didn't draft any of these players because of injury risk. I asked him how could he like the moves if he wouldn't use those players for his fantasy team... he said "Oh I couldn't take the risk, I have some real money riding on this league." Then after thinking it over he realized he didn't like the moves after all. The point is anyway that AA made these moves that fantasy owners had concerns about... so like you said he can't use the injury excuse.

A serious sacrafice is needed. Don't need to kill anybody. But ceromonously fire Beeston, Gaston, Murphy, and half the scouts. Keep AA and Gibbons. But AA has to do Jays talk twice a week. And apologize to every fan, be very curteous and humble and show that he is undergoing a transformative stage. Then we have a week celebrating all that is Pat Gillick. An entire week. We also have days celebrating Yankees, Red Sox and Rays franchises. Which is strange in our home stadium. But we need to accept our inferiority to all these franchises... even Os as well. AA has to give a speech saying what is great about each of these franchises how they are beyond the jays and how in the future he will learn from them, respect them, and hope god willing to someday in the far future play them as equals, but acknowledge and take responsibility for the jays present inferiority. We also have a day where Gibbons and Shea Hillenbrend shake hands at home plate. Gibbons will talk about past mistakes and Shea will get a coaching position (if he wants it) that may seem extreme but if there really is a curse of Shea how else would you reverse it??

This organization has to stop selling low and buying high. Need to focus on getting a group players all in their mid 20s capable of having peak years together. I recall you were in favor of trading Bautista 2 years ago. That would of been selling at the high point. Good call. Not that Bautista is bad or anything now. Just that he was at a very high point in 2011.

And that's why I don't think it's fair to call this a troll thread. I mean maybe the language that was used was just meant to get people going?? But honestly there is almost no way to write about the general situation without being overly negative. It's been a bad year. It's not like we are 17-19 after losing a couple tough ones but with a +15 run differential and several guys looking good... I mean in that case you might have guys starting threads saying it's over... and that would be trolling. But given the situation how could this be considered trolling??

He's good at getting jobs and promotions. I mean you read this board and there are a few guys who scout games and it would seem to me they'd want to get inside somehow, I don't know if they do for sure. But that was AA 10 years ago, 15 years. A 20something watching Expos games, and he was driven to get on the inside from there. And obviously worked very hard... but I'm sure others work just as hard but get nowhere. So AA is obviously good at schmoozing and getting this type of job. He's good at impressing suits and reporters. I mean Jeff Blair wrote a book about AA calling him the next Gillick, the Jesus-saviour of the Bue Jays. You don't get that kind of thing after a 76 win season, after proving nothing, unless you are very charismatic and can impress people. So to your point that he didn't play the game at a high level. Good point. Compare him to Billy Beane, who played at a high level, and failed, and had scouts telling him his whole life he was a can't miss star... and the scouts were wrong. That was the whole point of money ball. Billy Beane dealt with scouts on a personal level, from a young age, and realized they weren't that good at predicting things. I'm not against scouts. In this day and age you need a lot of scouts, because everyone has the same numbers. But the culture has to be such that numbers and anlytics are used to direct the scouts. And if you look at Beane compared to AA... it seems AA is much more reliant on the scouts. AA always says disjointed stuff like... "And our scouts took a real good look at him and were real comfortable... they liked his makeup. They think the power is there. They think he will develop quickly. They thing he will age well. blah blah blah" AA is always saying stuff like that. But Billy Beane doesn't, Beane played the game, heard stuff like that his whole life and takes it with a grain of salt.

Sometimes good things are bad. Like if there was a scenario where Ramon Ortiz pitched 120 innings it would have to start obviously with him hot. So he pitches 7 innings of shut out today earns some more starts. Starts getting run support and all of a sudden is 5-1. AA is so smart... what do we know?? Jays are hot. Within 6 of the sox. And Ortiz gets more and more starts through the constant injuries. Ever so slowly begins to slip. Then gets pounded a few times. By September he's 6-10 5.80. And you're like how did happen?? How does an organization give Ramon Ortiz 20 starts?? Jays are 76-86 18 games back, 14 out of 2nd wild card, 12th overall pick, same show next year. It begins here Ramon Ortiz 7 shut out innings.

What if he goes 5-9 with a 5+ era in only 20 starts or something??