leaffie

You have nothing to apologize for. You love numbers, and you apply them to your love of baseball. Most understand that. I started coming onto a message board, because I knew nothing about sabremetrics and that seemed the best way to learn. And I have never had any problem with anyone that uses them or applies them. I have also learned a tremendous amount. Are all these numbers and equations applicable to human beings, I am not so sure. But I really doubt there are many people out there anymore that don't appreciate their validity.

As a woman (one of the few), and as an old one, I can tell you that this forum is not a place that you want to be, unless you go along with the herd. The mere fact that admin feels it is necessary to start this thread, should speak volumes. I actually could care less if anyone agrees with me or not. But, an opinion, (anyone's opinion) should be given some respect. There is a gang mentality, that appears as soon as someone dare to disagree with any of the so called knowledgeable posters. Right or wrongly, there is a feeling here, that if you aren't one of the chosen ones, you have to be either dumb, a casual fan, or not worth speaking to. If this is a closed society, where only the sabr fanatics are welcome, that is fine, it is your club. But if you want it to grow, then you need to do things differently.

And then those same gambling sites should take bets on how long it will take for the fans to start complaining about the next manager.

Well thank goodness for that. Thx for letting us know.

No kidding.

Well then I guess everyone that is complaining about the Jays terrible rotation, shouldn't be concerned.

So these numbers are based only on striking out batters and walks? So if he can only manage to get a velocity of say 88mph, and can't manage to throw the ball anywhere except over the middle of the plate, where it is promptly fired over the fence, that is not his responsibility? I find it hard to believe that any pitcher would be judged on just those two things.

Not missing the point, but why does there have to be a fight? Why is it that the sabre guys think that is the ONLY thing that should ever be used. Those computer numbers that are generated by a machine, HAVE to know more than a person. Even old time fans, would admit that most of the numbers are very useful. The problem is that some think they are the ONLY thing to be considered. When these numbers are being generated, why do they not take into consideration the fact, that JJ has declined each year, that he has been injured numerous years, with serious injuries. Some of which were never fixed properly. Why is it, that when a fan watches a game, and sees JJ being smashed all over the park, and then the next game he comes out, and puts his team down before they even take the field, or that he looks totally lost out there, why is that not worthy of consideration. Why is it, that it is not his fault. When is it the responsibility of the pitcher, for producing a dreadful result? Or is it never his responsibility. Why when he pitches a lousy game, is it the result of bad luck, or bad fielding, or any other such excuse? How bad does a pitcher have to be, before numbers actually support him being lousy?

The Jays trade for Cliff Lee at the break and make the playoffs. :-)

"Padres: Compared to last spring, when Johnson was with Toronto, the Padres' pitcher is feeling positively great. "I was feeling beat up before spring training (last year)," Johnson, who battled arm injuries throughout the 2013 season and suffered through the worst of his nine Major League seasons." Strange, I just read this today. It was written two days ago. I remember wondering when I read it, why he was so beat up before the season even started with the Jays. Well I was against giving him the QO, and I am glad that AA didn't give it to him. Too many injuries.

He was second on my list. Leiter was given more than his fair share of chances by the jays.

Miguel Batista , he spent too much time walking around trying to impress people with his intellect, and not enough pitching.

Another point of view article on the Santana signing: Jerry Crasnick discusses why P Ervin Santana is a good fit for the Atlanta Braves' pitching staff.Tags: Atlanta Braves, Ervin Santana, Jerry Crasnick, contract Ervin Santana-mania ended abruptly this morning, with Santana headed to the Atlanta Braves on a one-year contract worth $14.1 million. While there's a great deal of uncertainty around Santana's eventual 2014 performance, there's no such guessing about how expensive the signing is for the Braves -- very. The prime motivation for Atlanta's signing of Santana is tied to the health of Kris Medlen. Taken out of a game due to elbow soreness Sunday, Medlen is heading to Dr. James Andrews to have the ligament damage in his elbow examined. Medlen is a survivor of a previous Tommy John surgery, and if he's heading for another one, his 2014 is over and the Braves are without one of their key starters in what looks to be a close National League East race with the Nationals. The NL is a better fit for Santana, and his projection reflects the environment. A ZiPS outlook of 11-8 and a 3.59 ERA in 190 1/3 innings for Atlanta is one of the better team projections for Santana; when I run ZiPS in all 30 stadiums, Camden Yards and Rogers Centre, two of his rumored destinations, were two of the worst homes for Santana, ranking 27th and 29th respectively in terms of ERA compared to league average. At 2.9 projected WAR, Santana is worth his $14 million salary. The big problem for the Braves is the additional cost, the loss of a first-rounder for one season of paying Santana a reasonable salary. Where the Blue Jays would lose a pick in the low 50s and the O's lost pick would be in the 90s, the Braves lose No. 26. For a team that likes to keep its payroll under $100 million and likely won't do anything crazy when it eventually moves into its new stadium, that's a real hit. The pre-free-agency value for the typical 26th pick is roughly 3.5 WAR, and that amount of talent would cost $19.6 million in the free-agency market. While the majority of prospects don't succeed, the payout when they do is massive. The Braves may be missing out on the next Craig Hansen (No. 26 overall in 2005), which wouldn't be so harmful, but they could also be missing out on the next Alan Trammell (No. 26 in 1976) or Dan Plesac (1983). Add the $19.6 million to the salary Santana will make in Atlanta and we're talking about a de facto $33.7 million preliminary cost for one season of Santana's services. In one way of looking at it, Santana is the most expensive pitcher over the course of a single season in baseball history. While there's at least a chance that the Braves get another pick on the back end of the signing if they give Santana a qualifying offer next season, that's far from a certainty. After all, Santana, who posted an ERA above 5.00 in 2009 and 2012, got limited interest coming off the best ERA of his career and nobody had the stomach to lose a first-rounder for him. There's no reason to think that would be any different next season unless he is significantly better than he was in 2013. Santana's experience dealing with an ice-cold market after turning down a qualifying offer could make him more likely to accept one next season. This is a move that smells of panic. Mike Minor may start the season on the disabled list, Gavin Floyd won't be ready to start the year, and Brandon Beachy's health is a concern. The short-term rotation looks thin behind Julio Teheran and Alex Wood, but Minor will be back and odds are at least one of Floyd and Beachy will be able to contribute. It's easy to skip the fifth starter early in the season, and there's a lot to be said of patience while you look for opportunity -- the difference between a good pitcher and Cody Martin/Freddy Garcia over the course of a month being only a handful of runs. It's not Santana or bust, after all, and if the Braves are going to pay such a high price, they may as well have it go toward a trade for David Price or Jeff Samardzija. Moves made out of panic frequently turn out to be rash. This one is no exception.

Maybe there is already a deal done, and AA has a trade to do before they make the announcement?

That was my first thought, but the writer was also talking about salary relief for the Jays. Maybe they think AA will be blowing this up.

There was also a rumour on ESPN that the Yankees were looking to acquire Reyes to replace Jeter. Don't know whether it is just someone surmising or not.

While I do understand your not wanting to pay for just the box scores, MLB.com audio gives you the audio for all the games for all the teams. $22.00 well spent for me anyway.

According to Kennedy on MLB, the Tigers wanted Robbie Ray. They targeted him, and didn't talk to anyone else about the Fister trade.

I found it hard to believe that no one has signed him, if that is all he is asking now.

. Assessing the remaining FA market February, 11, 2014 Feb 11 4:07 PM ET By AJ Mass | ESPN.com We're still waiting for the floodgates to open on the remaining big-ticket free agents, but since the signing of Masahiro Tanaka, it has been fairly quiet. With the first spring training games creeping ever closer, the time seems right to examine who is still sitting by the phone, who might be considering making some calls, and what might be holding up the process. A.J. Burnett Teams still expressing interest: Nationals, Orioles, Phillies, Pirates. Sticking point: Apart from a potential fear that he might change his mind and opt for retirement, there really isn't any. His desire to be close to his family has already limited the market to these clubs. Current leader: Phillies Ervin Santana Teams still expressing interest: Blue Jays, Dodgers, Indians, Orioles, Yankees. Sticking point: As with all of the free agents on this list except for Burnett, the loss of a draft pick comes with any signing, which is part of why these players remain on the market. A high HR/FB rate makes Santana a risky pickup in homer-friendly ballparks. Current leader: Orioles Ubaldo Jimenez Teams still expressing interest: Blue Jays, Orioles, Yankees. Sticking point: Even though he has dropped his salary demands in half -- to the neighborhood of three years and $35-$40 million -- questions remain regarding his lack of focus when not in a contract year. Current leader: Blue Jays Stephen Drew Teams still expressing interest: Mets, Red Sox. Sticking point: Demands for a three-year deal with the ability to opt out after just one season is not likely to fly with any of the clubs still inquiring about the shortstop. Current leader: Mets Nelson Cruz Teams still expressing interest: Mariners, Orioles, Rangers. Sticking point: Reported asking price of $75 million, along with residual hesitancy following his involvement in the Biogenesis scandal. Current leader: Mariners Kendrys Morales Teams still expressing interest: Mariners, Orioles, Pirates. Sticking point: Age, desire for multi-year deal and defensive liabilities that make going to the National League a huge risk, plus the fact that Cruz is competing for the same openings. Current leader: Pirates Dan Szymborski Real cost of the qualifying offer "The market has been so slow for these players that it's fair to ask if teams are being too protective of their draft picks. But upon further inspection, it appears GMs are acting rationally. Allow me to explain."

Has anyone even heard a whisper of him meeting with the Jays?

I was told that so far it is just an eastern thing, but they have already had lots of requests in the west for Shaw customers.

I thought he signed with the Tigers.

From ESPN insider Paul Maholm, LHP Perfect fit: Toronto Blue Jays If you stopped paying attention at the halfway point of 2013, you probably remember Paul Maholm having a pretty decent year. At the break, he had thrown 115 innings and had a 3.98 ERA, and had helped the Braves build a nice big lead in the NL East. Then, in his first start of the second half, he gave up seven runs in three innings and was subsequently placed on the DL with a left wrist contusion, which caused him to spend the next month on the sidelines. He was pretty mediocre after returning from the DL in late August, and then was left off the Braves' playoff roster, ending his season on a pretty sour note. But prior to those 35 bad innings in the second half, Maholm was on a 450-inning run of consistently solid performances. He ran a 3.66 ERA/3.68 FIP in 2011, and then followed that up with a 3.67 ERA/4.00 FIP in 2012. At the All-Star break, he was at 3.98 ERA/4.07 FIP. These aren't sexy numbers, but they're perfectly serviceable for a major league starting pitcher, and that's not the kind of track record you want to ignore because a guy had 35 bad innings surrounding a stint on the DL. As a 32-year-old lefty with an 87 mph fastball, though, Maholm doesn't exactly get anyone excited. However, it isn't hard to make a case that Maholm can give a team most of what Jason Vargas could put up, and Vargas got $32 million over four years earlier in the offseason. On a cheap one-year deal, Maholm could be a great addition to a team like the Blue Jays, who need a short-term upgrade but hate giving long-term deals to pitchers. Maholm won't be the kind of signing that gets Blue Jays fans excited like last year's trades did, but he'll help make sure that they don't have to watch Ricky Romero take the mound again in 2014, and that makes it a move worth doing in and of itself.

This is from Buster Olney: Santana has had elbow trouble, and given all that we know about predicting injuries (read Russell Carlton's work on the topic here), some teams undoubtedly are wary of the possibility of a breakdown for a 31-year-old pitcher.