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    For Vladimir Guerrero Jr. And the Blue Jays, What’s $50 Million Between Friends?


    Mike LeSage

    As new details about negotiations between the Blue Jays and Vladimir Guerrero Jr. keep emerging, we take another look at both sides of the table.

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    On Thursday, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reported that sources told him Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was asking for $500 million in present value during extension negotiations. The Jays, said those sources, were offering close to $500 million, but with deferrals, making the present value “somewhere between” $400 to 450 million. Guerrero softened his stance on deferrals late in the negotiations, but as we know, a deal was never struck. Guerrero was looking for a 15-year deal, buying out his last year of arbitration and adding 14 years to his stay in Toronto. To this point, all reports that have come out say the stumbling block was the dollar value, so for now we will have to assume the Jays were okay with a 14-year term, just at a lower valuation.

    Toronto’s well-documented pursuit of Soto this past offseason at a reported AAV of $51 million and Shohei Ohtani the year before ($46.1 AAV after deferrals) certainly would have pushed the market upwards for both Guerrero and upcoming big-name free agents. I’m not going to argue that Guerrero is at the level or value of either of those two, but if we believe he was asking for $500 million over 14 years, that’s a $35.71 million AAV. Let’s have a look at the kind of company that would put him in.

    Rank Player Total Present Years Age AAV (Present)
    1 Juan Soto 765 765 15 26 51
    2 Shohei Ohtani 700 460.8 10 29 46.08
    3 Zack Wheeler 126 126 3 35 42
    4 Aaron Judge 360 360 9 31 40
    5 Jacob deGrom 185 185 5 35 37
    6 Gerrit Cole 324 324 9 29 36
    7 Vladimir Guerrero Jr. 500 500 14 25 35.7
    8 Mike Trout 426.5 426.5 12 27 35.5
    9 Anthony Rendon 245 245 7 30 35
    10 Corbin Burnes 210 210 6 30 35
    11 Francisco Lindor 341 338 10 28 33.8
    12 Carlos Correa 200 200 6 28 33.3
    13 Nolan Arenado 260 260 8 28 32.5
    14 Corey Seager 325 325 10 28 32.5
    15 Jays High-End Offer 450 450 14 25 32.1
    16 Manny Machado 350 350 11 30 31.8
    17 Alex Bregman 120 95.1 3 31 31.7
    18 Blake Snell 182 150.3 5 32 30.06
    19 Rafael Devers 313.4 291.5 10 26 29.15
    20 Jays Low-End Offer 400 400 14 25 28.6
    21 Trea Turner 300 300 11 30 27.3
    22 Mookie Betts 365 306.7 12 28 25.6

    It’s elite company no matter which way you cut it. It’s also worth noting that Guerrero is making $28.5 million this year, which lines up with the potential low-end offer displayed. You can cherry-pick any name on the list and argue whether Guerrero deserves to be above or below them. I’m firmly on the side of signing Guerrero at (almost) any cost, so I like to pick on Anthony Rendon, arguing that the homegrown four-time All-Star face of the franchise with a shelf full of awards is worth AT LEAST as much as Rendon got from the Angels. I’m not unreasonable though; I can look at the other names on the list, and at my colleague Davy Andrews’ arguments and recognize that Guerrero is asking to be valued (for a long time!) at a rate above what he has shown he deserves. (And in the interest of fairness, it’s worth noting that going into their last seasons of arbitration, Rendon had put up 23.2 fWAR while Guerrero has put up just 17.0)

    What I keep coming back to, though, is how close they really were/are. If we’re to trust Rosenthal’s sources, the Jays and Guerrero were between $3.5 million and $7.1 million apart per season. Let’s split the difference and call it $5.3 million. Depending on your preferred methodology, teams are spending between $6 million and $9 million per win in free agency, so they’re less than one win apart in perceived value. In the grand scheme of things, how much is $5.3 million a year? To cherry-pick another name - it’s the same amount Gregory Soto is being paid to pitch out of the Baltimore bullpen this season. Once again we’re talking about Soto money.

    Again, I’ll listen to all the reasons that the Jays should walk away from this negotiation. It’s a tonne of money — money that could be spread around and used to help fill multiple lineup holes for years to come. The contract lengths we’re talking about have almost no hope of ending well – even in the best case scenario, teams expect to be overpaying on the front end while the player is young, then end overpaying as they age – but there is a question of legacy to be considered. If the two sides had truly gotten over all those hurdles and they were down to arguing over Gregory Soto money instead of Juan Soto money, I just don’t understand how a compromise couldn’t be met.

     

     

     

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    I feel like the Jays already probably extended their offer another 50M more than their projection system values Vladdy so "an extra 50M from that" is now 100M more than they were going to offer him. You have to set a deadline at some point, also if other players see the team caved and gave out extra $ for Vladdy, does that weak precedent for future negotiations with other players?

    Just look at Springer barely better than a bench player now in his age 35 season. Vladdy on a 14 year deal could have like 5 sunk years at the end of that contract, not to mention his body could go full Pablo Sandoval.

    I still think Vladdy isn't getting close to the contract the Jays offered in FA, so if he wants to take the deal the Jays offered then sign, otherwise he runs the risk of getting wayyyy less.

    Heck, a 14 year deal for Vlad could have like NINE sunk years in it. 

    I mean his up and down career looks as much like Cody Bellinger as it does Juan Soto. 

    The GOAT Mike Trout has had one good season since he turned 28, and even in that one he only played 119 games. 

    Age comes for everybody. Vlad still has 1-2 years until his "physical peak" based on the average player, then it's probably downhill. And it's not like he is a fitness freak... for all we know he might be post peak already. 

    20 minutes ago, Laika said:

    Heck, a 14 year deal for Vlad could have like NINE sunk years in it. 

    I mean his up and down career looks as much like Cody Bellinger as it does Juan Soto. 

    The GOAT Mike Trout has had one good season since he turned 28, and even in that one he only played 119 games. 

    Age comes for everybody. Vlad still has 1-2 years until his "physical peak" based on the average player, then it's probably downhill. And it's not like he is a fitness freak... for all we know he might be post peak already. 

    Exactly. And for all the value the Rogers would squeeze out of him marketing-wise as the face of the franchise this year and in the next few, the second his on-field starts to wane, so does his marketing value. Right now it looks like Rogers is willing to get close enough to his demands that they feel he is worth it but... any higher and it's a massive gamble. 

    Like you said, even as soon as 3 seasons from now, Vlad could be on his way to replacement level value on the field. It's one thing to sign your 25 year old 7 fWAR stud, know he's gonna be likely 6+ for the next 6ish years,  and then deal with the inevitable 5.5-5-4.5-4-3-2-2-1.5-1 type of slide over the last 8...Vlad is looking like maybe he might be 4-5 fWAR at best over his next 3 seasons, with his downward trajectory starting sooner, and be more "off-a-cliff" rather than "slow decline". 

    2 hours ago, BB17 said:

    I feel like the Jays already probably extended their offer another 50M more than their projection system values Vladdy so "an extra 50M from that" is now 100M more than they were going to offer him. You have to set a deadline at some point, also if other players see the team caved and gave out extra $ for Vladdy, does that weak precedent for future negotiations with other players?

    Just look at Springer barely better than a bench player now in his age 35 season. Vladdy on a 14 year deal could have like 5 sunk years at the end of that contract, not to mention his body could go full Pablo Sandoval.

    I still think Vladdy isn't getting close to the contract the Jays offered in FA, so if he wants to take the deal the Jays offered then sign, otherwise he runs the risk of getting wayyyy less.

    I think 5 sunk years would be the best case scenario. A 14-15 year deal would take Vlad into his 40's, so it's more likely the Jays would get around 7-8 sunk years (if you assume decline usually begins around 32-33), and possibly more considering his track record, conditioning, etc. There's absolutely zero upside for the Jays making a deal like that. If their place on the win curve was a lot higher from 2026-30, then maybe you could squint hard to rationalize it, but they may have to start a rebuild with or without Vlad next season, so his best remaining seasons post 2025 (if they happen with the Jays) may not even benefit the team all that much. 

    Let him test free agency. Or trade him at the deadline if the team is out of it. Or turn back time and trade him in July 2024. 

    13 minutes ago, glory said:

    I think 5 sunk years would be the best case scenario. A 14-15 year deal would take Vlad into his 40's, so it's more likely the Jays would get around 7-8 sunk years (if you assume decline usually begins around 32-33), and possibly more considering his track record, conditioning, etc. There's absolutely zero upside for the Jays making a deal like that. If their place on the win curve was a lot higher from 2026-30, then maybe you could squint hard to rationalize it, but they may have to start a rebuild with or without Vlad next season, so his best remaining seasons post 2025 (if they happen with the Jays) may not even benefit the team all that much. 

    Let him test free agency. Or trade him at the deadline if the team is out of it. Or turn back time and trade him in July 2024. 

    That's pretty much the gamble right? 

    All those arguments out there that seem to think because Vlad's uncertainty was impacting FA signings... do people think these other FA's are gonna be clamoring to sign here just because he might be locked up to a contract when anyone with a functional capacity of logic and reason can see his decline phase being not that far away?

    Maybe... maybe not. Who knows really.

    9 hours ago, glory said:

    I think 5 sunk years would be the best case scenario. A 14-15 year deal would take Vlad into his 40's, so it's more likely the Jays would get around 7-8 sunk years (if you assume decline usually begins around 32-33), and possibly more considering his track record, conditioning, etc. There's absolutely zero upside for the Jays making a deal like that. If their place on the win curve was a lot higher from 2026-30, then maybe you could squint hard to rationalize it, but they may have to start a rebuild with or without Vlad next season, so his best remaining seasons post 2025 (if they happen with the Jays) may not even benefit the team all that much. 

    Let him test free agency. Or trade him at the deadline if the team is out of it. Or turn back time and trade him in July 2024. 

    The win curve point is important, and often glossed over or omitted entirely when people write about the situation. The reality is that the outlook for the team looks bleak for 3-5 years, beginning with what would be year 1 of Vlad’s new deal. 

    He doesn't have enough of a supporting cast around him to win now. No farm system with elite players coming. The Jays already need another bat. I get that fans want him but he could be lousy as early as his 33 season. But hey it's not my money. If the Jays offered him $450m I can see that being way over their valuations. Somebody else can pay him - the Jays can make a run at someone else on a shorter deal like Kyle Tucker. Rogers apparently spoke directly to Vlad and tried to sign him so none of this is on Shapiro. The owner got involved and it wasn't enough money. So it goes.

     

    8 hours ago, Key22 said:

    He doesn't have enough of a supporting cast around him to win now. No farm system with elite players coming. The Jays already need another bat. I get that fans want him but he could be lousy as early as his 33 season. But hey it's not my money. If the Jays offered him $450m I can see that being way over their valuations. Somebody else can pay him - the Jays can make a run at someone else on a shorter deal like Kyle Tucker. Rogers apparently spoke directly to Vlad and tried to sign him so none of this is on Shapiro. The owner got involved and it wasn't enough money. So it goes.

     

    I hate the "its not my money" saying I often see (not picking on you specifically cuz I see it everywhere).

    Reality is the Jays have a budget so sure while its not your $, the Jays spending that money prohibits you from signing other players which could be better for the franchise.

    10 hours ago, Key22 said:

    It was discussed on Blair and Barker that like with Soto - Rogers sat down to talk to the player and agent. It wasn't enough in either case.

    Shapiro also said the same thing in his press conference a few weeks ago, saying that Ed was personally involved in the process, as was Tony Staffieri, and that deals of this magnitude ($$ and years) can't be done without an owner being involved. 



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