Does anyone actually trust Ross Atkins and Shapiro to be at the helm for a rebuild?

[BTS]

absolutely, both Lee and Sabathia we certified Aces, top of the rotation horses. Brantley and Carrasco were fine major leaguers but nothing to write home about. Compare that to what the Jays received for Roy Halladay.

 

If you look at Shapiro and his entire body of work it’s like a string of Daulton Varsho like returns

 

This post is so bad that I'm reasonably sure this is a troll account

[jaysblue]

Seems good

 

Brantley for like 12 starts from Sabathia is fantastic

Carrasco for Lee was good

 

Mission accomplished

 

Yeah I even read that since the Brewers made the Postseason, Cleveland was allowed to pick the PTBNL, which was Michael Brantley.

 

Crazy story also how the Brewers could have had Mike Trout with the No. 25 overall pick: https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/free-agent-compensation-rule-cost-brewers-shot-at-mike-trout

[mikepelfrey]

No Bts, it’s not a troll account, I was on the pro sports daily site as well. And I’m just reporting what Indians fans told me. They absolutely hated Shapiro if you weren’t so lazy you can see the posts of Indian fans, they are still there if you bothered to look. For example:

 

“One online pundit best exemplified Tribe Nation's fury: "Mark Shapiro is right now my most hated person," he wrote. "I hate him more than Osama bin Laden and whoever invented country music, and that is saying something. I only have one thing to say about this attack on America . . . CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY! DIE SHAPIRO DIE! CRUCIFY!!!!!"

 

Imagine at that time in history comparing him to Osama bin Laden, I’d say they really wanted him gone, don’t you?

 

They blame Shapiro for the dismantling of John Harts team. And you can like Carrasco all you want, but he was never an Ace like Sabathia, Lee, and Halladay were. He was a decent starter not a horse that can carry a staff. There is a difference.

 

8 years without a single win in the postseason is pretty damning for a team that has by far the largest market in all of baseball. You can make all the excuses for Shapiro you wish, that’s your choice, and you’re entitled to it. But Shapiro has an 18 year track record as an executive and it speaks for itself. Indian fans celebrated when Dolan foisted him on the Blue Jays, and now Most intelligent blue jays fans want to see him gone. you may want him to stay and once again, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I would never say any different.. I’m just saying that Shapiros track record isn’t good and that’s a matter of record, you can believe how you wish that’s your choice. I’m just saying that eight years without a single win in the postseason and a poor drafting record. Is there enough to get anybody fired. Hell, Brian Cashman GM of the Yankees made the playoffs 30 straight years he missed once last year and their fans wanted him fired and run out on a rail.

 

What makes Shapiro so good that he can not win a single playoff game in eight years that he’s immune to be held accountable for his performance? That my friend is not trolling it’s just a simple statement of performance and the representation of a lack of accountability.

 

I wonder how many teams over the last eight years have not won a single playoff game. I bet there’s no more than five teams that have done that. Now ask yourself of those five or fewer teams, how many have the same GM?

 

The simple fact is you and metafour will defend Shapiro to your dying breath, because you were too lazy to do simple research… there are several articles, still online that speak clearly of how hated Shapiro was in Cleveland. How hard is it to open google? That, Bts makes you and metafour the trolls, not me.

Edited July 15, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[max silver]

No Bts, it’s not a troll account, I was on the pro sports daily site as well. And I’m just reporting what Indians fans told me. They absolutely hated Shapiro if you weren’t so lazy you can see the posts of Indian fans, they are still there if you bothered to look. For example:

 

“One online pundit best exemplified Tribe Nation's fury: "Mark Shapiro is right now my most hated person," he wrote. "I hate him more than Osama bin Laden and whoever invented country music, and that is saying something. I only have one thing to say about this attack on America . . . CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY! DIE SHAPIRO DIE! CRUCIFY!!!!!"

 

Imagine at that time in history comparing him to Osama bin Laden, I’d say they really wanted him gone, don’t you?

 

They blame Shapiro for the dismantling of John Harts team. And you can like Carrasco all you want, but he was never an Ace like Sabathia, Lee, and Halladay were. He was a decent starter not a horse that can carry a staff. There is a difference.

 

8 years without a single win in the postseason is pretty damning for a team that has by far the largest market in all of baseball. You can make all the excuses for Shapiro you wish, that’s your choice, and you’re entitled to it. But Shapiro has an 18 year track record as an executive and it speaks for itself. Indian fans celebrated when Dolan foisted him on the Blue Jays, and now Most intelligent blue jays fans want to see him gone. you may want him to stay and once again, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I would never say any different.. I’m just saying that Shapiros track record isn’t good and that’s a matter of record, you can believe how you wish that’s your choice. I’m just saying that eight years without a single win in the postseason and a poor drafting record. Is there enough to get anybody fired. Hell, Brian Cashman GM of the Yankees made the playoffs 30 straight years he missed once last year and their fans wanted him fired and run out on a rail.

 

What makes Shapiro so good that he can not win a single playoff game in eight years that he’s immune to be held accountable for his performance? That my friend is not trolling it’s just a simple statement of performance and the representation of a lack of accountability.

 

I wonder how many teams over the last eight years have not won a single playoff game. I bet there’s no more than five teams that have done that. Now ask yourself of those five or fewer teams, how many have the same GM?

 

The simple fact is you and metafour will defend Shapiro to your dying breath, because you were too lazy to do simple research… there are several articles, still online that speak clearly of how hated Shapiro was in Cleveland. How hard is it to open google? That, Bts makes you and metafour the trolls, not me.

 

Holy s*** dude how many times do you need to make the same point in a single post?

[BTS]

No Bts, it’s not a troll account, I was on the pro sports daily site as well. And I’m just reporting what Indians fans told me. They absolutely hated Shapiro if you weren’t so lazy you can see the posts of Indian fans, they are still there if you bothered to look. For example:

 

“One online pundit best exemplified Tribe Nation's fury: "Mark Shapiro is right now my most hated person," he wrote. "I hate him more than Osama bin Laden and whoever invented country music, and that is saying something. I only have one thing to say about this attack on America . . . CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY! DIE SHAPIRO DIE! CRUCIFY!!!!!"

 

Imagine at that time in history comparing him to Osama bin Laden, I’d say they really wanted him gone, don’t you?

 

They blame Shapiro for the dismantling of John Harts team. And you can like Carrasco all you want, but he was never an Ace like Sabathia, Lee, and Halladay were. He was a decent starter not a horse that can carry a staff. There is a difference.

 

8 years without a single win in the postseason is pretty damning for a team that has by far the largest market in all of baseball. You can make all the excuses for Shapiro you wish, that’s your choice, and you’re entitled to it. But Shapiro has an 18 year track record as an executive and it speaks for itself. Indian fans celebrated when Dolan foisted him on the Blue Jays, and now Most intelligent blue jays fans want to see him gone. you may want him to stay and once again, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I would never say any different.. I’m just saying that Shapiros track record isn’t good and that’s a matter of record, you can believe how you wish that’s your choice. I’m just saying that eight years without a single win in the postseason and a poor drafting record. Is there enough to get anybody fired. Hell, Brian Cashman GM of the Yankees made the playoffs 30 straight years he missed once last year and their fans wanted him fired and run out on a rail.

 

What makes Shapiro so good that he can not win a single playoff game in eight years that he’s immune to be held accountable for his performance? That my friend is not trolling it’s just a simple statement of performance and the representation of a lack of accountability.

 

I wonder how many teams over the last eight years have not won a single playoff game. I bet there’s no more than five teams that have done that. Now ask yourself of those five or fewer teams, how many have the same GM?

 

The simple fact is you and metafour will defend Shapiro to your dying breath, because you were too lazy to do simple research… there are several articles, still online that speak clearly of how hated Shapiro was in Cleveland. How hard is it to open google? That, Bts makes you and metafour the trolls, not me.

 

I'm obviously not reading that, but my mistake - no troll would have type like 400 words

[Brownie19]

His proof that Cleveland was desperate to get rid of Shapiro is an online comment from someone suggesting they hate him more than Osama bin Laden. Say no more sir. People may want to find the "remove thanks" button.

[wilko]

No Bts, it’s not a troll account, I was on the pro sports daily site as well. And I’m just reporting what Indians fans told me. They absolutely hated Shapiro if you weren’t so lazy you can see the posts of Indian fans, they are still there if you bothered to look. For example:

 

“One online pundit best exemplified Tribe Nation's fury: "Mark Shapiro is right now my most hated person," he wrote. "I hate him more than Osama bin Laden and whoever invented country music, and that is saying something. I only have one thing to say about this attack on America . . . CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY! DIE SHAPIRO DIE! CRUCIFY!!!!!"

 

Imagine at that time in history comparing him to Osama bin Laden, I’d say they really wanted him gone, don’t you?

 

They blame Shapiro for the dismantling of John Harts team. And you can like Carrasco all you want, but he was never an Ace like Sabathia, Lee, and Halladay were. He was a decent starter not a horse that can carry a staff. There is a difference.

 

8 years without a single win in the postseason is pretty damning for a team that has by far the largest market in all of baseball. You can make all the excuses for Shapiro you wish, that’s your choice, and you’re entitled to it. But Shapiro has an 18 year track record as an executive and it speaks for itself. Indian fans celebrated when Dolan foisted him on the Blue Jays, and now Most intelligent blue jays fans want to see him gone. you may want him to stay and once again, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I would never say any different.. I’m just saying that Shapiros track record isn’t good and that’s a matter of record, you can believe how you wish that’s your choice. I’m just saying that eight years without a single win in the postseason and a poor drafting record. Is there enough to get anybody fired. Hell, Brian Cashman GM of the Yankees made the playoffs 30 straight years he missed once last year and their fans wanted him fired and run out on a rail.

 

What makes Shapiro so good that he can not win a single playoff game in eight years that he’s immune to be held accountable for his performance? That my friend is not trolling it’s just a simple statement of performance and the representation of a lack of accountability.

 

I wonder how many teams over the last eight years have not won a single playoff game. I bet there’s no more than five teams that have done that. Now ask yourself of those five or fewer teams, how many have the same GM?

 

The simple fact is you and metafour will defend Shapiro to your dying breath, because you were too lazy to do simple research… there are several articles, still online that speak clearly of how hated Shapiro was in Cleveland. How hard is it to open google? That, Bts makes you and metafour the trolls, not me.

 

[mikepelfrey]

No I’m not insane, but then again my Mets, were in the World Series in the last decade, have won playoff games in the last 2 years, and actually fired multiple GM’s for poor performance in the same time that the blue jays have allowed a once great franchise to become the laughingstock of baseball.

 

I’m not the only one here who thinks that either, after all I didn’t start this thread. I’m just agreeing with them that this team is going nowhere until they get rid of the clowns running this team into the ground.

 

Isn’t the definition of insanity doing the same things that didn’t work the last time you tried them, and expecting the results to be different?

 

But hey suit yourself, you may enjoy losing. Remember 2 facts this team is geographically the largest market in the sport. And currently has the highest payroll in team history. And what do they have to show for it? Check the standings, and you call us crazy.

 

Remember the title of the thread you’re posting in: “ does anyone actually trust Ross Atkins and Shapiro to be at the helm for this rebuild? I didn’t select the title. A Blue Jays fan did. They have a right to their opinions don’t they? I actually respect 5toolphenom for their courage to ask the hard question, At least unlike you, they’re dealing with reality. Heck even your best player, Vlad Guerrero who once said he’d never consider playing for the mother f’ing yankees now says he would…..if that doesn’t indicate that something isn’t right in the people making the decisions and the players want change, what more do you need?

Edited July 15, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[L54]

Mike pelfrey really isn’t wrong

[The Cats Ass]

Seems good

 

Brantley for like 12 starts from Sabathia is fantastic

Carrasco for Lee was good

 

Mission accomplished

 

And Lee he originally acquired with Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon

[jaysblue]

And Lee he originally acquired with Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon

 

Man, if Grady Sizemore could have stayed healthy, likely looking at a HOF career. Would have been cool to see the type of numbers he would have put up in his career.

[metafour]

And Lee he originally acquired with Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon

 

Grady Sizemore was an OK MLB player, but nothing to write home about. Similar to a Lourdes Gurriel today. They should have received more for Colon.

[mikepelfrey]

Mike pelfrey really isn’t wrong

 

Thank you for this, but it’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about having the right people in the right jobs. With the skills to maximize the opportunities that present themselves….. if you have proven talent evaluators and scouts who over years have identified great prospects, you listen to them. You don’t just hire your buddies because they agree with you. And having a bunch of yes men is never a good thing. I’d rather have a scout who pounds the table and tells me why I’m wrong and convinces me with solid reasoning why he’s right and I’m wrong. I think that’s healthy for an organization.

 

Shapiro may very well be a great financial mind and if that’s so, let him do it to his heart’s content, but that doesn’t mean he’s qualified as a talent evaluator, and if he’s not, he shouldn’t be doing it. That’s all I’m saying.

[Sorrow]

Grady Sizemore was an OK MLB player, but nothing to write home about. Similar to a Lourdes Gurriel today. They should have received more for Colon.

 

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but before his injuries started at 26 he put up 30.4 fWAR with two seasons at 7+ WAR. If he had a normal decline post him being 27 he likely finishes his career around 70-75 fWAR and a likely HoF calibre player. But injuries happen so we can only theory craft on what could have been.

[jaysblue]

Grady Sizemore was an OK MLB player, but nothing to write home about. Similar to a Lourdes Gurriel today. They should have received more for Colon.

 

He put up 5.6, 7.9, 6.4, 7.4 WAR seasons in his first four MLB seasons lol. If he stayed healthy and continued to produce, we're likely talking about a HOF career.

 

Grady Sizemore was lightyears better than LGJ haha.

[Brownie19]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but before his injuries started at 26 he put up 30.4 fWAR with two seasons at 7+ WAR. If he had a normal decline post him being 27 he likely finishes his career around 70-75 fWAR and a likely HoF calibre player. But injuries happen so we can only theory craft on what could have been.

 

He's joking at Mr. Pelfrey was trying to downplay how good Carrasco and Brantley were.

 

Man - that Sizemore, Lee and Phillips for Colon deal was one of the best ever. Who made that deal again?

[mikepelfrey]

That’s not really how it went down as Ken Rosenthal reported at the time:

 

“ But there were also some strong rumors that 2002 could be the Expos final year in Montreal, there were rumors of contraction of the franchise. Owner Jeff Lurie was not the most upfront of business guys when it came to the franchise either.

 

Omar Minaya, then the Expos’ GM, was trying to orchestrate what he thought might be the team’s last hurrah — the Expos, surprise contenders in ’02, were facing the possibility that their owner, Major League Baseball, would eliminate them through contraction.

 

Minaya had been named GM just a few days before spring training started. The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

 

“There wasn’t much focus on minor-league players,” says Minaya, who is now the Padres’ senior vice president of baseball operations.

 

“The No. 1 priority was not long-term. Long-term, we were going to be contracted. And if you were going to be contracted, the No. 1 priority was to be as competitive as you can. “I had no choice, I was trying to save my franchise.”

 

“Every team in baseball was pretty much looking at drafting those players (in a dispersal draft). Before I left the Mets (in early 2002), every team had an exercise, (trying to figure out) what players they were going to get.”

 

As reported by the associated press the next day:

 

“ The Expos, who are owned and operated by MLB and are still the most likely team to be contracted, yesterday traded 1B Lee Stevens and three prospects to the Indians for P Bartolo Colon. The Expos are 41-36 and in second place in the NL East. In Toronto, Jeff Blair calls the trade "a gutsy move sure to send shockwaves throughout [MLB]." Realizing "this could be the final season for baseball in Montreal," Expos GM Omar Minaya — who was appointed by MLB Commissioner Bud Selig — "has made a bold pre-emptive strike in acquiring a pitcher who figured to be one of the most highly sought players at the trade deadline" (GLOBE & MAIL, 6/28). Minaya said that the commissioner's office "played no role at all" in making the trade (ESPN, 6/27). Minaya, on the trade: "I hope it sends a message to our fans and players that we are trying to be competitive and trying to make the playoffs" (AP, 6/27).

 

ESPN’s Rob Neyer: "If this is the Expos' last season they don't have anything to lose, and they should trade all of their prospects in pursuit of one last bit of desperate glory. But until somebody figures out how you can kill a franchise other than the Expos, I'm not at all sure this is their last season" (ESPN.com, 6/27).

 

ABC Radio's Keith Olbermann: "Who's supposed to be contracted again? The Expos.

 

 

The bolded was for Spanky since his comment indicated he had a hard time getting it… hopefully that helps. That trade was an outlier. It didn’t make Shapiro a genius, far from it, it demonstrated that Minaya was clearly desperate, and would have traded his own grandmother if it meant saving his franchise. Which is why I included the comments from Neyer and Olberman. Anybody with half a brain understood why it went down.

 

If anything, I give credit to Shapiro in that he recognized he had a desperate man by his privates, and took him for all he was worth. Let’s all hope he finds an equally desperate man and sends him Bo Bichette for 5 top 100 prospects and his grandmother.

Edited July 17, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[Spanky99]

[mikepelfrey]

He's joking at Mr. Pelfrey was trying to downplay how good Carrasco and Brantley were.

 

Man - that Sizemore, Lee and Phillips for Colon deal was one of the best ever. Who made that deal again?

 

No brownie I wasn’t knocking carrasco, I just was saying correctly I might add, he wasn’t a staff ace like Halladay, Sabathia and Verlander were. Carrasco, was a clear step down as his lifetime 110-100 record easily proves.

 

By way of comparison:

 

Halladay 203 - 105

Sabathia 251 -161

Verlander 260 - 143

 

 

Those three could carry a staff. Carrasco could not. Only an idiot would think Carrasco was their equal.

Edited July 17, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[Brownie19]

No brownie I wasn’t knocking carrasco, I just was saying correctly I might add, he wasn’t a staff ace like Halladay, Sabathia and Verlander were. Carrasco, was a clear step down as his lifetime 110-100 record easily proves.

 

By way of comparison:

 

Halladay 203 - 105

Sabathia 251 -161

Verlander 260 - 143

 

 

Those three could carry a staff. Carrasco could not. Only an idiot would think Carrasco was their equal.

 

Nobody said he was. We said he was a good return for 1 1/2 years of Cliff Lee. Try to keep up please.

Edited July 17, 2024 by Brownie19

[Spanky99]

[mikepelfrey]

He's joking at Mr. Pelfrey was trying to downplay how good Carrasco and Brantley were.

 

Man - that Sizemore, Lee and Phillips for Colon deal was one of the best ever. Who made that deal again?

 

No brownie I wasn’t knocking carrasco, I just was saying correctly I might add, he wasn’t a staff ace like Halladay, Sabathia and Verlander were. Carrasco, was a clear step down,

[mikepelfrey]

Nobody said he was. We said he was a good return for 1 1/2 years of Cliff Lee. Try to keep up please.

 

No you keep up, you got a 500 pitcher who wasn’t an ace for a guy who went 22-3 and had just won the Cy Young in his prime (0nly 29 at the time of the trade), the rest of the package pretty much bombed out.

 

How in hell was that a good return? Are you stoned or something. That’s like trading Vlad Guerrero for Steve Pearce

[Spanky99]

wInZ!!!

[mikepelfrey]

wInZ!!!

 

Joke all you want, but Lee also out pitched Halladay in the post season too, by a pretty good margin. Carrasco was not a good return for Lee. Just like he wouldn’t have been for Halladay either. When you trade a hall of fame caliber pitcher, you definitely want something more than a journeyman .500 pitcher. Or at least you should.

 

And like I said I wasn’t knocking Lee or Sizemore. I was just saying there were extenuating circumstances in that trade. It’s not often that a team is in danger of being contracted and going out of business

Minaya felt he had to do something to try and get them a championship so that baseball couldn’t get rid of them.

 

If baseball decided that the Jays were irrelevant and were going to move the team out of Toronto, to say New Orleans, wouldn’t you want your GM to do everything they could to force baseball to change its mind? Damn straight you would.

 

The jays are like going to trade all their impending free agents because they don’t want to lose them for nothing. That’s also an extenuating circumstance. It’s just how the game is these days. But when Minaya did it, it was not common as it is now.

 

Some fans want to tear it all down, like the astros and braves did, Tank and use the draft to build a powerhouse of young stars. And they might be right but ownership doesn’t seem to want to do that. They seem more interested in selling tickets. My personal opinion is Anthopoulos saw that way before anybody else did and that’s why he left

Edited July 17, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[BTS]

Joke all you want, but Lee also out pitched Halladay in the post season too, by a pretty good margin. Carrasco was not a good return for Lee. Just like he wouldn’t have been for Halladay either. When you trade a hall of fame caliber pitcher, you definitely want something more than a journeyman .500 pitcher. Or at least you should.

 

I think you're probably going to find this forum a very frustrating place to participate.

[mikepelfrey]

I think you're probably going to find this forum a very frustrating place to participate.

 

Actually I just got a private message saying the opposite. That I should ignore the “negativity police” and keep speaking my truth. I told them not to worry. I love the Mets and my BlueJays too much not to defend them. I’ve been here since the Prosprortsdaily days and many of the Old Guard are personal friends. I respect them too much to let some “negativity police” stop me from speaking my truth. Those of us who were here in those days, would NEVER let some pissant do that. You’re gonna find there are more of us than there are of you.

 

Real Jays fans Unite. Always speak your truth.

[Joltin Joe]

I've heard from many credible sources that Atkins is basically an assistant GM and that it's still Shapiro behind player acquisition.

David Samson said same in his podcast. Everything goes on with Blue Jays Shapiro ok or declines it.

[jaysblue]

Man - that Sizemore, Lee and Phillips for Colon deal was one of the best ever. Who made that deal again?

 

This definitely made you excited.

[Brownie19]

This definitely made you excited.

 

Bud, you started this discussion by suggesting the returns that Shapiro got for CC and Lee weren't very good. The majority suggested that was a bad take, as getting Brantley and Carrasco for 1/2 a season of CC and 1 1/2 seasons of Lee was actually quite good. When you factor in that Shapiro got Sizemore, Phillips and Cliff Lee for 1 1/2 seasons of Bartolo Colon, it becomes pretty evident that Shapiro had a pretty good track record of executing trades during his time in Cleveland.

 

Want to add to this? Remember when Shapiro fleeced AA by getting Yan Gomes and Mike Aviles for Esmil Rogers? Gomes immediately gave Cleveland a 4.4 and a 4.9 WAR season.