General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[jaysblue]

Meh... they've both been good, not great in Toronto. Who cares, win a WS, dammit!?

 

At the end of the day, just want to see the Blue Jays win a World Series, as we all do. AA came close in 2015 and the team in 2016 was close as well. Hope we could see one of these Atkins teams come close over the next two years.

 

I wish that 2021 team made the Playoffs. Think they could have done some damage.

[jaysblue]

Jackie Redmond helped him find his game.

 

She was a bombshell!

[Jays24]

I wonder who people here would prefer if the choice was Soto or Ohtani on their expected long term deals.

 

I think you gotta go for Ohtani because you don't have to give up any prospects even if you have to spend a lot more financially for Ohtani. Although the other side is that you can go obtain another free agent with the money you save from Soto's deal.

[The Cats Ass]

JPR also brought in both Bautista and EE

[Marew]

Would prefer Soto to ohtani. Bo being gone would send a message to Vlad, unserious players not wanted. Maybe he gets his act together. Both would be a plus but that’s like maybe a 33% chance they pull that off

[saskjayfan]

Would prefer Soto to ohtani. Bo being gone would send a message to Vlad, unserious players not wanted. Maybe he gets his act together. Both would be a plus but thatÂ’s like maybe a 33% chance they pull that off

 

Bo is probably the most serious player the Blue Jays has. He just criticised management and he didn't openly do that either and Atkins has a fragile ego.

[saskjayfan]

Where did I compare Atkins to AA? I just said Atkins offered those players the most money and years which is why they came here. It's nothing groundbreaking. Ryu really didn't pan out as hoped and Springer looks like he's heading in the wrong direction with 3 years and $75M left on his contract. Gausman has been fantastic his first two seasons here and hope he continues to pitch at that high level!

 

J.P. Ricciardi was able to land big name FA's like BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett in 2006, because the Jays at the time offered the most years and money. He was able to sign Frank Thomas because he offered the most money and years as well.

 

4 for 18 for Lind. Lind was 32% better than league average and 43% better than league average in his last 2 years with the Jays. That was not a bad contract. He hit the IL a few times the last couple years but he was very productive. That wasn't a bad contract.

[jaysblue]

4 for 18 for Lind. Lind was 32% better than league average and 43% better than league average in his last 2 years with the Jays. That was not a bad contract. He hit the IL a few times the last couple years but he was very productive. That wasn't a bad contract.

 

Yeah and it was after his monster 2009 season as well.

 

He was awful from 2010-2012, but was solid in 2013 and 2014 when strictly used in a platoon against RHP only. AA turned him into Estrada who from 2015-2017 was a reliable arm in the rotation.

[Jays24]

Bo is probably the most serious player the Blue Jays has. He just criticised management and he didn't openly do that either and Atkins has a fragile ego.

 

And Bo's "coincidentally" on the trade block. Reminds me of all the guys who got shipped out from the 2016 team because they didn't like Shatkins.

 

Fragile ego for sure. Probably getting flashbacks to when he used to get wedgied as a kid loll.

[BatFlip]

Yeah like I understand signing guys to the most money and years might sometimes not always work. But Brownie is making it seem like Atkins discovered electricity by signing Ryu and Springer to big FA contracts.

 

I think Atkins has done quite well in free agency. Ignoring the big money Gausman, Ryu, Springer deals, he's killed it on the short-term deals. Robbie Ray and Semien were absolutely scintillating value. KK and Brandon Belt provided good value, hell, even Kikuchi might provide excess value.

 

On top of that, what about the deals he hasn't made, including a big money extension on Vlad which the team wisely avoided until a longer track record was established. He also avoided an albatross deal with Jose Bautista (I love you Jose), which a lot of fans and people on this forum were calling for.

 

He's made some good trades, and he's made some questionable ones, but that's always going to be the case, especially when you're dealing with volatile prospects.

[burlingtonbandit]

I think Atkins has done quite well in free agency. Ignoring the big money Gausman, Ryu, Springer deals, he's killed it on the short-term deals. Robbie Ray and Semien were absolutely scintillating value. KK and Brandon Belt provided good value, hell, even Kikuchi might provide excess value.

 

On top of that, what about the deals he hasn't made, including a big money extension on Vlad which the team wisely avoided until a longer track record was established. He also avoided an albatross deal with Jose Bautista (I love you Jose), which a lot of fans and people on this forum were calling for.

 

He's made some good trades, and he's made some questionable ones, but that's always going to be the case, especially when you're dealing with volatile prospects.

 

I think the argument is the Blue Jays as a whole come up with the decisions on who they should acquire. So Atkins himself isn't really doing anything special other than saying the team offers "x" years and "x" $. Obviously the GM is the one who id judged at the end on the decisions that were made but if the Jays internal process says player is worth "x" value then I'm not sure Atkins is going to stray too much outside of that. While the Belt/KK signings worked out quite well its not like they seemed like fantastic deals when the signings were announced. If anything they were slight overpays to what the consensus contracts those players were going to receive.

 

But you are right, sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make and in the Jays case/Atkins era not signing JD, Bautista and Vladdy to long term contracts looks pretty smart. Even if Bo asked for something along the Tatis deal it was wise for the Jays FO to pass.

[max silver]

And Bo's "coincidentally" on the trade block. Reminds me of all the guys who got shipped out from the 2016 team because they didn't like Shatkins.

 

Fragile ego for sure. Probably getting flashbacks to when he used to get wedgied as a kid loll.

 

You're like the poster child for revisionist history. I can only guess you are referencing Stroman and Donaldson, who each had massive egos and simply weren't the type of players the new regime wanted around the young core when it was brought up.

[max silver]

The Jays waved the most money and years at those guys so yeah no wonder why they came here lol. Don't make it sound like Atkins was the only GM who could sign those guys.

 

I get the impression you would rather give yourself a swirly in a freshly soiled toilet bowl vs giving Ross Atkins any kind of credit for the successful moves that he's made. These are constantly framed as "lucky", or in this case happened only because Atkins busted out several bags of hundred dollar bills in the free agent meetings instead of being the result of a positive negotiation where a mutually agreeable price was determined.

[Joltin Joe]

Would prefer Soto to ohtani. Bo being gone would send a message to Vlad, unserious players not wanted. Maybe he gets his act together. Both would be a plus but that’s like maybe a 33% chance they pull that off

 

What rumour return on Bo be?

[MikeM3]

You're like the poster child for revisionist history. I can only guess you are referencing Stroman and Donaldson, who each had massive egos and simply weren't the type of players the new regime wanted around the young core when it was brought up.

 

Ya they might have yelled at the core to get in shape

[wamco]

That’s a good point. It may have been different if vlad came up he wasn’t anointed the face of the franchise. I’d like to think Jose or Jd would have been more likely to pressure vlad to stay in shape but who knows.

[jaysblue]

I think Atkins has done quite well in free agency. Ignoring the big money Gausman, Ryu, Springer deals, he's killed it on the short-term deals. Robbie Ray and Semien were absolutely scintillating value. KK and Brandon Belt provided good value, hell, even Kikuchi might provide excess value.

 

On top of that, what about the deals he hasn't made, including a big money extension on Vlad which the team wisely avoided until a longer track record was established. He also avoided an albatross deal with Jose Bautista (I love you Jose), which a lot of fans and people on this forum were calling for.

 

He's made some good trades, and he's made some questionable ones, but that's always going to be the case, especially when you're dealing with volatile prospects.

 

Atkins has made solid moves and signings for sure during his tenure here. Never said he didn't.

 

Blue Jays traded for Robbie Ray correct? Not sign him as a FA? But regardless excellent pickup on an arm who had previous success a couple years earlier. Always was a Robbie Ray fan during his days in Arizona.

 

Nobody is arguing about Semien obviously. KK and Belt were questionable given their age and injury track record, but they turned out great and stayed healthy. Both could have went the other way and flopped, which some don't realize. Kikuchi looks good if he could prove his 2023 wasn't a fluke and do it again next season.

 

Nobody is arguing about the deals he didn't make. Definitely not caving into signing Jose Bautista to a 5 year $125M contract extension after 2016. Not extending Vlad to a big money extension looks like the right move now for sure. Would be interesting to see which posters on here wanted Bautista and/or Vladdy signed to crazy extensions. I remember some of the numbers being floated around with Vlad even after his 2022 season and it was crazy.

 

Atkins has been really solid here during his tenure in Toronto overall. Could he do better? Of course. I wouldn't put him that high on a pedestal yet however as some other shills on here already do.

[Laika]

The Blue Jays have the..... 8th best front office? Insert ranking here

[jaysblue]

I get the impression you would rather give yourself a swirly in a freshly soiled toilet bowl vs giving Ross Atkins any kind of credit for the successful moves that he's made. These are constantly framed as "lucky", or in this case happened only because Atkins busted out several bags of hundred dollar bills in the free agent meetings instead of being the result of a positive negotiation where a mutually agreeable price was determined.

 

Lurking the boards at 2:30AM again on a weekend to pick arguments with others!

 

Again, you always do a fantastic job Max at changing my words around and misrepresenting anything I've said on this message board in order for you to pick an argument and to sound superior. Where did I once not give Ross Atkins any credit for the successful moves that he made? Please go back and read my posts.

 

There was a bit of luck involved in the KK and Belt signings. They were both coming off injury plagued seasons. Low risk/high reward type of signings who panned out. Have nothing against signing both of those players at the time, even if one or both never worked out. I bet for example if Atkins decided to sign my favourite player Austin Meadows as a low risk/high reward signing and he comes close to repeating his monster 2019 season, you would be claiming Atkins was a genius lol.

 

As for the Ryu, Springer and Gausman signings, the Blue Jays offered the most years and money which is why they all signed here. Ryu was 33 when he signed here and no other team was offering him a 4 year contract at $80M especially when he had durability issues. It's not rocket science. Brownie was making it sound like Atkins was the first GM who was able to lure any big FA's to Toronto haha.

[MikeM3]

The Blue Jays have the..... 8th best front office? Insert ranking here

 

Top 4: Orioles, Rays, Braves, Dodgers

 

Sneaky smart teams: Reds, Dbacks, Cubs, Mariners

 

Still pretty smart: Brewers, Guardians

 

Effective Dombrowskis: Rangers, Phillies, Blue Jays

 

Lower tier Dombrowskis: Twins, Red Sox, Marlins

 

Teams that have fallen below us: NYY, HOU, SFG

 

Might not be that s*** anymore: Tigers, Royals, Mets.

 

The rest are dumb.

[Laika]

Top 4: Orioles, Rays, Braves, Dodgers

 

Sneaky smart teams: Reds, Dbacks, Cubs, Mariners

 

Still pretty smart: Brewers, Guardians

 

Effective Dombrowskis: Rangers, Phillies, Blue Jays

 

Lower tier Dombrowskis: Twins, Red Sox, Marlins

 

Teams that have fallen below us: NYY, HOU, SFG

 

Might not be that s*** anymore: Tigers, Royals, Mets.

 

The rest are dumb.

 

Houston and SFG are interesting takes

 

I'm not quite sold on any of your sneaky smart teams but I see the angle. Still prefer MIL and CLE to them. What CLE did recently through the draft was f***ing nuts. I think Bibee, Williams, and Logan Allen were all like... 2020-2021 draft picks lmao.

[connorp]

Houston and SFG are interesting takes

 

I'm not quite sold on any of your sneaky smart teams but I see the angle. Still prefer MIL and CLE to them. What CLE did recently through the draft was f***ing nuts. I think Bibee, Williams, and Logan Allen were all like... 2020-2021 draft picks lmao.

 

If you want to make sure it’s a proper ranking for Houston, you need to ask the person doing the ranking what they think about the cheating

[jaysblue]

I probably would rank the Jays somewhere in the 10-15 range.

[Sorrow]

I think Atkins today is better as a GM than AA was while he was in Toronto but AA after the Dodgers tenure is a markedly better GM.

 

I think Toronto is likely a top 8 front office. I’d put the Dodgers, Astros and Braves at the top and then the next five are in some order Tampa, Cleveland, Toronto, Baltimore, Milwaukee. I think an argument for Texas could be made in there as well.

[Dick_Pole]

I miss the days where the only 2AM weekend posts were from Spanky, piss drunk and hilarious to everyone except the mods who had to clean it up. These new 2AM posts aren't so fun anymore.

 

Also, we can't really give that much credit to saying no to Bautista. It probably would have happened until he opened he big yap about demanding $30 million a year. Then the narrative here was pretty much 100% hell no and even in casual fan spaces it was mixed at best. Bautista talked himself out of a Rogers boost.

[Dick_Pole]

10-15 is right. Average to slightly above average. Had Guerrero actually panned out though they could have potentially hit top 8. The problem with this regime is a complete lack of ability to develop top talent. Bo Bichette is like, the 5th best player if he's on the Braves. Top one here. That's a problem. No matter how improved this team is with depth compared to a decade ago (Biggio, Espinal >>> Goins and John McDonald, Jansen and Kirk >>>> Arecibia and Thole etc.)

[MikeM3]

Houston and SFG are interesting takes

 

I'm not quite sold on any of your sneaky smart teams but I see the angle. Still prefer MIL and CLE to them. What CLE did recently through the draft was f***ing nuts. I think Bibee, Williams, and Logan Allen were all like... 2020-2021 draft picks lmao.

 

Hou has seen an exodus because their owner thinks he's Jerry Jones. New gm signing terrible RP contracts. Can't figure out to play McCormick. Had no SP depth. Just lost their best scout.

 

SFG can't develop any picks and just showed huge dysfunction pinning their failures on Kapler. Zaidi hasn't delivered anything he said he would and is sweating. They just lost their one strength, Andrew Bailey.

 

I only docked CLE a bit because this fascination with hit over power is a fatal flaw and has cost them N Jones and Caminero.

 

The sneaky smart teams are not necessarily ahead of us but I just think they do a way better job than people realize.

[BigCecil]

Yeah like I understand signing guys to the most money and years might sometimes not always work. But Brownie is making it seem like Atkins discovered electricity by signing Ryu and Springer to big FA contracts.

 

Signing Free Agents for more term & money isn't splitting the atom or inventing penicillin. Its pretty simple. Its about $, geography and winning. Ryu, Springer and Kooch came here mainly for the $/term offered.

 

Jays have a history of signing FA's, like Russel Martin heading into 2015. We picked up big names like Cone, Morris, Winfield, Molitor and Stewart the last win window we had before that. Part of the attraction for Free Agents correlates to a chance to win, which is what KK and others have said. The reality is those windows have been few and far between (1994-2014 was dead).

 

I think Atkins/Shapiro came out of the gate hot criticizing AA for trading prospects promising "waves" of impact MLB talent from the farm. They have had some success in development, but its been modest compared to what they billed, by any objective analysis. Our entire rotation last year, once Manoah was shelved, was Free Agents. They also traded a lot of top prospects.

 

Without the draft & development success they hoped for, they pivoted to pillow deals and being willing to spend more signing a mix of younger and older veteran Free Agents like Ryu, Springer and Bassitt to remain "competitive". Overall they have been quite solid in these signings, but I don't think its sustainable. The back end of those deals, especially with the older player signings, can be painful and impact negatively future roster construction. Its my hope we start to get more impact talent developed internally and on our roster.

[Frenchsoup]

I could run it better lollll

[Frenchsoup]

I think I'm gunna start umping, bring some comedy to the game.