General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Frenchsoup]

Let's see how many assets Roger's wants to aquire this off-season.

[TheHurl]

It's been reported that Shatkins wanted to move those players in 2017 but Rogers corporate pushed back.

 

I don't think it is just reported. Shapiro straight out said that trading those players was an imposibility because of the pr/ticket sales issues it would have caused. Fans don't ever really think about these impacts.

 

I wonder if Jays fans will suck Atkins dick as hard as they do AA's if he wins a World Series elsewhere

[Carlos Danger]

C'mon man, the "clutch hitting" ******** disappeared in the 2nd half. I find it very hard to find sortable stats for RISP, but I did find this from Jays Journal:

 

The Jays actually ranked 6th in the AL and 12th overall in MLB with a respectable .260 batting average with RISP, as well as 9th overall in hits with RISP with 363.

 

I believe near midseason they were like 27th in MLB with RISP and everyone was freaking out and calling for coaches to be fired because their hitting philosophy was s*** (which I suggested was f***ing stupid). Either they changed that, or the stats just finally evened themselves out as the final results weren't all that bad, given the type of offensive team we had this year (8th in MLB in wRC+).

 

The RISP production went cold in the playoffs. Few teams (if any) have any way of controlling when the team gets hot or cold with RISP. I'm sure the RISP production went cold for the Braves, Dodgers, O's and TB too and was a major contributor to their early exits. To collect 10 hits and score 0 runs is incredibly unlucky. That should be obvious.

 

Did the Jays need to get lucky to go deep into the playoffs this year? Probably, given how f***ing horrible Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho, etc. hit this year. There are so many factors that are outside of the GM, coaches and even the players hands during SSS playoff rounds. That narrative is valid man.

 

I had already posted this weeks ago, on my cell and on vacation so not going to look it up again. However the Jays were the worst or tied for worst in RISP among teams that made the playoffs.

 

Who gives a s*** how they ranked among teams that didn’t make the playoffs.

 

They were also s*** with RISP the last few important series games of the season for the most part. Zero expectation something would change and the results bore that out.

[Frenchsoup]

I don't think it is just reported. Shapiro straight out said that trading those players was an imposibility because of the pr/ticket sales issues it would have caused. Fans don't ever really think about these impacts.

 

I wonder if Jays fans will suck Atkins dick as hard as they do AA's if he wins a World Series elsewhere

 

Shapiros just got to put a fun team together. i want a bunch of grinders lol

[Frenchsoup]

I love watching Whit Merrifield

[Marew]

I love watching Whit Merrifield

 

Yea if we can get merrifield and belt, dump bo and Vlad for prospects, despite his gene pool and weight problems, I think we go far. There was a guy on tiktok throwing 98 at a carnival in the states somewhere.

[Laika]

I love watching Whit Merrifield

 

Not convinced you actually watch baseball anymore

 

yeah Whit Merrifield was pretty good... BEFORE THEY LOCKED YOU UP

[Frenchsoup]

Not convinced you actually watch baseball anymore

 

yeah Whit Merrifield was pretty good... BEFORE THEY LOCKED YOU UP

 

Was watching every pitch down the stretch

[Laika]

Was watching every pitch down the stretch

 

bruh, whit merrifield had like a .250 OBP in August, Sept, Oct

[Brownie19]

Was watching every pitch down the stretch

 

Whit Merrifield was f***ing awful down the stretch man. Like unplayable bad from August to October...like 40 wRC+ bad.

[Frenchsoup]

I was watching every Bluejays game down the stretch

[bluejaysinternNo5]

Just out of curiosity, how much of batting average with RISP evening out in the second half was because of the Buffalo call-ups? Davis Schneider and Ernie Clement hit .280 and .667 with RISP, respectively. Probably not much in the grand scheme of things.

[BatFlip]

Just out of curiosity, how much of batting average with RISP evening out in the second half was because of the Buffalo call-ups? Davis Schneider and Ernie Clement hit .280 and .667 with RISP, respectively. Probably not much in the grand scheme of things.

 

Not very much, they had a combined 170ABs out of a rough total of 2,750 for the team in the second half. That's about 6% of the ABs... so they had a positive impact but not a big one. The team as a whole clearly hit better in RISP across the lineup in the second half.

 

I personally remain in the camp of mostly random variance/luck impacting RISP (which is by definition a much smaller sample than the season overall hitting averages). That said, I still think the Jays hitting strategy/approach in 2023 needs improvement.

[jaysblue]

the Blue Jays made the playoffs and then just got unlucky over a few games

 

The Blue Jays were a borderline Playoff team because they struggled offensively over the 162 game season which carried over into their WC matchup against the Twins.

[jaysblue]

To be honest, if Morales, Roark and the Grichuk extension are the worst signing you made in 8 years - that's not too bad. You also have to give him props for being able to attract and ultimately sign guys like Ryu, Springer and Gausman. Those were huge "gets" for the organization and they've kind of put Toronto back in a position where players want to play here (especially when you hear all the positive feedback from players re: training facilities).

 

I'm also not sure it's fair for some fans to rip Atkins for his inability to extend his young stars. We did extend Berrios and for f*** sakes, I'm certainly thankful he didn't extend Vlad after the 2021 season. If you think the Grichuk extension was bad - that Vlad extension may have been catastrophic.

 

The Jays waved the most money and years at those guys so yeah no wonder why they came here lol. Don't make it sound like Atkins was the only GM who could sign those guys.

[Laika]

The Blue Jays were a borderline Playoff team because they struggled offensively over the 162 game season which carried over into their WC matchup against the Twins.

 

yeah they were a borderline playoff team

 

they ended up experiencing slightly less postseason luck than another borderline playoff team, being the Minnesota Twins

 

everyone agrees it would be better to go into the postseason as a really good team! an elite team! a team with less problems! no debate there

[Brownie19]

The Jays waved the most money and years at those guys so yeah no wonder why they came here lol. Don't make it sound like Atkins was the only GM who could sign those guys.

 

C'mon man. There are LOTS of players each year who won't just sign with whomever offers the most money. You think players want to follow Kris Bryant and play in Colorado right now? We know players have turned down Toronto and taken less money to play elsewhere before - and chosen to sign elsewhere when the money is equal. Atkins turned around the team and put them in a position where top FA's wanted to sign here and then he went out and landed some big fish.

 

The FO was able to convince Rogers to spend more and take on more risk - after there were YEARS where we never even considered by top FA's (Beeston had his 5 year max ********). The only big FA that AA ever signed was Martin (who was great). Besides that, his next big FA signing in 6 years as our GM was Melky Cabrera for 2 years at $16M in 2013 and Maicer Izturis for 3 years at $9M in 2013 - let that sink in. AA filled all our payroll by acquiring veteran talent (JJ, Dickey, Buehrle, Reyes/Tulo, etc.) - presumably because nobody would sign in TO. He also did a great job extending Jose and EE, but flopped when he extended Romero, Lind and Morrow.

[Frenchsoup]

Didn't he get Estrada for Lind?

[burlingtonbandit]

This is a f***ing dumb comparison for two reasons.

 

1. AA is on his own level when it comes to robbing players on extensions. Literally the best there is.

2. Atkins has been pretty f***ing good in free agency.

 

1. Of course he is, a big reason why he's been so successful as a GM....

 

2. I mean is that him though? The Jays FO used a collaborative approach so if one of the assistant GM's was the "GM" I don't think it would be much different. They make decisions together. I was speaking more to the fact almost all of the FA signings of Atkins tenure have been for market value. Tough to really gauge this anyways given free agents most of the time go to the highest bidder and there have been so few contract extensions singed for players before FA.

[burlingtonbandit]

C'mon man. There are LOTS of players each year who won't just sign with whomever offers the most money. You think players want to follow Kris Bryant and play in Colorado right now? We know players have turned down Toronto and taken less money to play elsewhere before - and chosen to sign elsewhere when the money is equal. Atkins turned around the team and put them in a position where top FA's wanted to sign here and then he went out and landed some big fish.

 

The FO was able to convince Rogers to spend more and take on more risk - after there were YEARS where we never even considered by top FA's (Beeston had his 5 year max ********). The only big FA that AA ever signed was Martin (who was great). Besides that, his next big FA signing in 6 years as our GM was Melky Cabrera for 2 years at $16M in 2013 and Maicer Izturis for 3 years at $9M in 2013 - let that sink in. AA filled all our payroll by acquiring veteran talent (JJ, Dickey, Buehrle, Reyes/Tulo, etc.) - presumably because nobody would sign in TO. He also did a great job extending Jose and EE, but flopped when he extended Romero, Lind and Morrow.

 

I would hardly call 4/18M for Lind a flop lol. More so slightly overpaid, and he actually was pretty useful the last 2 years of his deal. Romero and Morrow weren't even bad deals at the time, they just got hurt which happens with pitchers.

 

You could say FA never wanted to sign with the Blue Jays in the past because they were never competitive. After 2015/2016 at least players saw Toronto was a great baseball environment. If the FO were to convince Ohtani to sign here, now then I would say this FO has some convincing power.

[Jimcanuck]

Let's bring JP Ricciardi and Gord Ash into the discussion, for balance.

[BigCecil]

The Jays waved the most money and years at those guys so yeah no wonder why they came here lol. Don't make it sound like Atkins was the only GM who could sign those guys.

 

Amazing what an extra year of term and $25M AAV will do. AA had to overpay and give Martin an extra year too.

 

Gausman has been an elite signing....to be sure. 10 WAR over 2 seasons...we are almost in house money on the entire deal.

[jaysblue]

C'mon man. There are LOTS of players each year who won't just sign with whomever offers the most money. You think players want to follow Kris Bryant and play in Colorado right now? We know players have turned down Toronto and taken less money to play elsewhere before - and chosen to sign elsewhere when the money is equal. Atkins turned around the team and put them in a position where top FA's wanted to sign here and then he went out and landed some big fish.

 

The FO was able to convince Rogers to spend more and take on more risk - after there were YEARS where we never even considered by top FA's (Beeston had his 5 year max ********). The only big FA that AA ever signed was Martin (who was great). Besides that, his next big FA signing in 6 years as our GM was Melky Cabrera for 2 years at $16M in 2013 and Maicer Izturis for 3 years at $9M in 2013 - let that sink in. AA filled all our payroll by acquiring veteran talent (JJ, Dickey, Buehrle, Reyes/Tulo, etc.) - presumably because nobody would sign in TO. He also did a great job extending Jose and EE, but flopped when he extended Romero, Lind and Morrow.

 

Where did I compare Atkins to AA? I just said Atkins offered those players the most money and years which is why they came here. It's nothing groundbreaking. Ryu really didn't pan out as hoped and Springer looks like he's heading in the wrong direction with 3 years and $75M left on his contract. Gausman has been fantastic his first two seasons here and hope he continues to pitch at that high level!

 

J.P. Ricciardi was able to land big name FA's like BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett in 2006, because the Jays at the time offered the most years and money. He was able to sign Frank Thomas because he offered the most money and years as well.

[jaysblue]

I would hardly call 4/18M for Lind a flop lol. More so slightly overpaid, and he actually was pretty useful the last 2 years of his deal. Romero and Morrow weren't even bad deals at the time, they just got hurt which happens with pitchers.

 

You could say FA never wanted to sign with the Blue Jays in the past because they were never competitive. After 2015/2016 at least players saw Toronto was a great baseball environment. If the FO were to convince Ohtani to sign here, now then I would say this FO has some convincing power.

 

If Atkins signed those extensions to Lind, Romero, and Morrow, he would have got a free pass by the shills on here. Just "bad luck" or "underperformance" or "well it was a great extension at the time."

[Spanky99]

Let's bring JP Ricciardi and Gord Ash into the discussion, for balance.

 

What about the Prince of T.O!?

[jaysblue]

Amazing what an extra year of term and $25M AAV will do. AA had to overpay and give Martin an extra year too.

 

Gausman has been an elite signing....to be sure. 10 WAR over 2 seasons...we are almost in house money on the entire deal.

 

Yeah like I understand signing guys to the most money and years might sometimes not always work. But Brownie is making it seem like Atkins discovered electricity by signing Ryu and Springer to big FA contracts.

[jaysblue]

Didn't he get Estrada for Lind?

 

That trade hardly gets mentioned on here, but definitely one of AA's best trades. Estrada pitched in some big games here and was a reliable arm for those three seasons!

[Krylian]

That trade hardly gets mentioned on here, but definitely one of AA's best trades. Estrada pitched in some big games here and was a reliable arm for those three seasons!

 

Jackie Redmond helped him find his game.

[Spanky99]

Meh... they've both been good, not great in Toronto. Who cares, win a WS, dammit!?

[Jays24]

Let's bring JP Ricciardi and Gord Ash into the discussion, for balance.

 

Atkins is a genius by those standards. Just as long as we can admit he's a douche compared to AA lol.