2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Olerud363]

At some point in time, the owners are going to turn on each other. Some like Steve Cohen are wannabe Elon Musks in terms of adoration and public perception and this lockout is only going to hurt that attempt. Other owners lose big time money if the season is lost and would be much more flexible in terms of giving players a reasonable deal. While the owners of the bottom feeding franchises thrive off of paying the majority of their roster $600K salaries for as long as they can and will dig in their heels.

 

I really hope owners like Rogers are aggressive in leading to a deal. Rogers has everything to lose and nothing to gain with a prolonged lockout. The team could absorb concessions made to players. Meanwhile a lockout will cost them tons of eyeballs on their own media platforms. The team is good right now so they want them to play. Finally, a deal in the players' favour could really screw the Rays, an irritating division rival that has caused a lot of the problems in suppressing player salaries by gaming the system for so long.

 

Is this true though? Doesn't Rogers benefit long term if the Yankees and Red Sox are constrained by an aggressive salary tax?

 

Jays always seem to be in the top 10 or so of spenders, but below the tax level, and quite a bit below Yankees/Red Sox/Dodger level. So wouldn't they want constraints so Jays paryroll is closer to Yanks/Sox ?

[Spanky99]

The "meet in the middle" period comes when both sides feel pressure to make a deal and/or both sides start to lose money. That's probably going to happen some time in the next two weeks because if they want 4 weeks of ST and to start the season on March 31, then they'll need a deal by the end of Feb. That's when (hopefully) the urgency starts to kick in. If not, then who knows when it is.

 

I guess the good thing about their differences is that they appear to be mainly numbers. It's not like one side is saying they refuse to do one thing while the other is continuing to push for it. The MLBPA wants the CBT to start at $245m while the owners want it to start at $214m. The MLBPA wants the pre arb bonus pool at $100m while the owners are offering $15m. The MLBPA wants 12 playoff teams while the owners want 14. The MLBPA wants a set minimum of $775k while the owners want a $615k-$650k-$725k system for the first 3 years of service. They are clearly still far apart but you can meet somewhere in between with numbers, and they seem to agree with the general point of the changes. It's just a matter of which side concedes first, and unfortunately I don't think either side wants to feel like they "lost" when this is over, so stubbornness is a real threat.

 

The MLBPA wants the pre arb bonus pool at $100m while the owners are offering $15m.

 

That's the biggest road block according to all the MLB pundits, hope they can get it done in the next week, this is going to set baseball back, bigly.

[Jimcanuck]

That's the biggest road block according to all the MLB pundits, hope they can get it done in the next week, this is going to set baseball back, bigly.

 

There's no frigging way a multi billion dollar industry is going to shutter the doors over those differences, which are minor in the grand scheme of things.

[Abomination]

There's no frigging way a multi billion dollar industry is going to shutter the doors over those differences, which are minor in the grand scheme of things.

 

Of course there is. Egos will take over brains.

[Jimcanuck]

Of course there is. Egos will take over brains.

 

Then they'll get what they deserve.

[Ehjays]

MLB’s CBA Proposal Included Ability To Reduce Number Of Available Minor League Roster Spots

By Anthony Franco | February 14, 2022 at 8:29pm CDT

 

Major League Baseball put forth its latest collective bargaining proposal last weekend. Among the provisions included in that broad offer: a clause that would allow the commissioner’s office to reduce the amount of minor league roster spots available to teams in future seasons, according to a report from Jeff Passan of ESPN.

 

Currently, teams are permitted to carry up to 180 minor league players in their organizations during the season; that number expands to 190 over the offseason (not including the Dominican Summer League). According to Passan, MLB’s proposal would leave that 180-player limit in place for the upcoming season but would provide the league the flexibility to set the limit of minor leaguers per club at under 150 players at some point during the term of the next CBA. Passan hears from a league source that they’re not currently envisioning cuts to minor league membership at any point in 2023 but value the opportunity to implement stricter roster limits down the line.

 

MLB has made efforts to contract the minor leagues over the past few years. Over the 2019-20 offseason (prior to the start of the pandemic), the league eliminated 42 teams from affiliated ball, turning them into independent clubs or amateur summer ball teams. As part of the COVID-19 protocols, the league shrank the 2020 first-year player draft from 40 to five rounds. It was set at 20 rounds last year, and Passan writes that the league and union agreed last July to keep a 20-round draft in place going forward.

 

MLB’s proposal could affect different organizations to varying extents. Passan reports that five franchises currently roster more than 180 MiLB players, while two already have fewer than 150. Given that wide discrepancy in roster count between teams, there’s certainly some logic in tighter regulations to balance the field. Yet MLB no doubt also values the potential to reduce the number of minor league roster spots for cost-cutting reasons. Stricter limits on the number of spots available, if implemented, could involve many or all organizations having to release players.

 

Whether the Major League Baseball Players Association will sign off on changes to the minor league roster setup remains to be seen. Minor league players are not members of the MLBPA, nor are they members of a union of their own. Yet the MLBPA does play a role in some decisions involving amateur or minor league players. In addition to the aforementioned league-union agreement on cutting draft rounds, the parties have also discussed the possible implementation of a draft lottery, for example.

 

The treatment of minor league players is an issue that has garnered a fair bit of attention in recent years. The league suggested that improving conditions for remaining minor leaguers provided a compelling justification for cutting teams in the first place. Whether they’ve indeed made significant enough strides to justify those cuts has been a matter of debate. The league is requiring teams to provide housing for their farmhands, starting next season. Yet there remain concerns about the sufficiency of player pay during the season, and MLB continues to battle to keep minor league Spring Training unpaid.

[Dick_Pole]

Is this true though? Doesn't Rogers benefit long term if the Yankees and Red Sox are constrained by an aggressive salary tax?

 

Jays always seem to be in the top 10 or so of spenders, but below the tax level, and quite a bit below Yankees/Red Sox/Dodger level. So wouldn't they want constraints so Jays paryroll is closer to Yanks/Sox ?

 

If there is one thing from the Godfrey/Ricciardi era that will have a long-lasting legacy, it's the inferiority complex that the Jays can't compete with the Red Sox and Yankees. Up until the mid-90s, the Jays had absolutely no problem outspending and outcompeting both of those teams. Rogers is richer than Fenway Sports and the Steinbrenners combined.

 

This isn't 2000 anymore. The Red Sox sold off Betts and the Yankees are starting to come to terms with the fact that they have assembled inefficient, overpaid teams with holes in them since they last won a championship. They're not going to go buck wild with their payrolls anymore because there's more and more evidence that this simply doesn't work. Especially post-steroids era where giving a multi-year contract to someone over 30 is a big gamble.

 

What we need to work on is competitive balance and divisional realignment so that three, sometimes four, 90 win teams that somehow get to that level despite facing each other 19 times each aren't competing for three playoff spots while the one half decent AL Central team cruises. But I'm not opposed to the Jays competing with the Yankees and Sox.

[Spanky99]

There's no frigging way a multi billion dollar industry is going to shutter the doors over those differences, which are minor in the grand scheme of things.

 

That's what I'm hoping, man.

[Spanky99]

MLB’s CBA Proposal Included Ability To Reduce Number Of Available Minor League Roster Spots

By Anthony Franco | February 14, 2022 at 8:29pm CDT

 

Major League Baseball put forth its latest collective bargaining proposal last weekend. Among the provisions included in that broad offer: a clause that would allow the commissioner’s office to reduce the amount of minor league roster spots available to teams in future seasons, according to a report from Jeff Passan of ESPN.

 

Currently, teams are permitted to carry up to 180 minor league players in their organizations during the season; that number expands to 190 over the offseason (not including the Dominican Summer League). According to Passan, MLB’s proposal would leave that 180-player limit in place for the upcoming season but would provide the league the flexibility to set the limit of minor leaguers per club at under 150 players at some point during the term of the next CBA. Passan hears from a league source that they’re not currently envisioning cuts to minor league membership at any point in 2023 but value the opportunity to implement stricter roster limits down the line.

 

MLB has made efforts to contract the minor leagues over the past few years. Over the 2019-20 offseason (prior to the start of the pandemic), the league eliminated 42 teams from affiliated ball, turning them into independent clubs or amateur summer ball teams. As part of the COVID-19 protocols, the league shrank the 2020 first-year player draft from 40 to five rounds. It was set at 20 rounds last year, and Passan writes that the league and union agreed last July to keep a 20-round draft in place going forward.

 

MLB’s proposal could affect different organizations to varying extents. Passan reports that five franchises currently roster more than 180 MiLB players, while two already have fewer than 150. Given that wide discrepancy in roster count between teams, there’s certainly some logic in tighter regulations to balance the field. Yet MLB no doubt also values the potential to reduce the number of minor league roster spots for cost-cutting reasons. Stricter limits on the number of spots available, if implemented, could involve many or all organizations having to release players.

 

Whether the Major League Baseball Players Association will sign off on changes to the minor league roster setup remains to be seen. Minor league players are not members of the MLBPA, nor are they members of a union of their own. Yet the MLBPA does play a role in some decisions involving amateur or minor league players. In addition to the aforementioned league-union agreement on cutting draft rounds, the parties have also discussed the possible implementation of a draft lottery, for example.

 

The treatment of minor league players is an issue that has garnered a fair bit of attention in recent years. The league suggested that improving conditions for remaining minor leaguers provided a compelling justification for cutting teams in the first place. Whether they’ve indeed made significant enough strides to justify those cuts has been a matter of debate. The league is requiring teams to provide housing for their farmhands, starting next season. Yet there remain concerns about the sufficiency of player pay during the season, and MLB continues to battle to keep minor league Spring Training unpaid.

 

Yet there remain concerns about the sufficiency of player pay during the season, and MLB continues to battle to keep minor league Spring Training unpaid.

 

That's so petty and embarrassing.

[Spanky99]

If there is one thing from the Godfrey/Ricciardi era that will have a long-lasting legacy, it's the inferiority complex that the Jays can't compete with the Red Sox and Yankees. Up until the mid-90s, the Jays had absolutely no problem outspending and outcompeting both of those teams. Rogers is richer than Fenway Sports and the Steinbrenners combined.

 

This isn't 2000 anymore. The Red Sox sold off Betts and the Yankees are starting to come to terms with the fact that they have assembled inefficient, overpaid teams with holes in them since they last won a championship. They're not going to go buck wild with their payrolls anymore because there's more and more evidence that this simply doesn't work. Especially post-steroids era where giving a multi-year contract to someone over 30 is a big gamble.

 

What we need to work on is competitive balance and divisional realignment so that three, sometimes four, 90 win teams that somehow get to that level despite facing each other 19 times each aren't competing for three playoff spots while the one half decent AL Central team cruises. But I'm not opposed to the Jays competing with the Yankees and Sox.

 

Good post, agreed. The only thing is playoffs are expanding, whether we like it or not it's going to be at least 12 and possibly 14 teams. It'll certainly gain fan interest.

[glory]

That's the biggest road block according to all the MLB pundits, hope they can get it done in the next week, this is going to set baseball back, bigly.

 

Yeah, it seems like if MLB just met the players in the middle on the pre arb bonus pool (say, $50-60m), then they'd probably be close to an agreement. The minimum salary difference seems pretty arbitrary so meeting in the middle there is probably easy, and the CBT issue can probably be resolved by limiting the penalties for going over rather than having to increase it significantly (which I believe MLB started to do by eliminating draft pick loss for going over the first tier but financial penalties still exist). I agree, it would be insane for a $10b business to come to a halt over this. If MLB was asking for a salary cap like they were in 1994, then that type of difference would be difficult to overcome, but this is strictly money. Seems like a pretty damn easy fix if both sides were motivated to get a deal done.

 

The sad thing is, I don't think the the owners realize (or maybe they don't care) what type of damage this would do to the sport. This is an industry that is tied heavily to local cable contracts, and the RSN model is going to have to change significantly in the coming years (which will hurt owners). If there is a lockout into the regular season, then they are risking fan interest and future attendance, which is going to hurt the owners if it leads to a decline in both. No one is breaking Bonds' record any time soon, so even if they juice the hell out of the ball again it's probably not going to save the sport like McGwire/Sosa did coming off the last work stoppage. They really need to figure this out, and within the next 2 weeks.

[max silver]

That's so petty and embarrassing.

 

Just more MLB ownership dunking on minor league baseball. I am just so disgusted by the treatment of minor league players, such as how baseball argued against the players even obtaining minimum wages for their work. It's really beyond me how they can expect a professional athlete to reach their full potential when they can't even afford to feed themselves properly, or afford to even have a proper bed to sleep in so that they can't recuperate properly. It's just so short sighted to be pinching pennies in this fashion. With the rumblings of baseball eventually moving to more of a soccer style developmental camp training methodology perhaps conditions for minor league players will eventually begin to improve as a whole.

[Grant77]

https://theathletic.com/news/scott-boras-says-he-has-a-plan-to-fix-minor-league-baseballs-wage-issue/jt33qgvhnEoM/

 

Scott Boras with some positive ideas.

[AdamGreenwood]

Just more MLB ownership dunking on minor league baseball. I am just so disgusted by the treatment of minor league players, such as how baseball argued against the players even obtaining minimum wages for their work. It's really beyond me how they can expect a professional athlete to reach their full potential when they can't even afford to feed themselves properly, or afford to even have a proper bed to sleep in so that they can't recuperate properly. It's just so short sighted to be pinching pennies in this fashion. With the rumblings of baseball eventually moving to more of a soccer style developmental camp training methodology perhaps conditions for minor league players will eventually begin to improve as a whole.

 

They kind of look at it like University. You get a free education, and enough money to get by (barely).

Should we complain that Arts students should get free tuition, and $50,000 a year to live on.

The reason they are cutting milb positions is that the cost of keeping these guys around went up. The numbers don't work anymore.

Previously, if the average annual cost of a milb player was $40,000, the teams could afford to have 180 players per team. allowing them to keep longshots who only had a 1% chance of making the majors. But now with salary increases and mandatory housing, they can only keep 150 guys, just guys with a 3% chance of making the majors.

[The Cats Ass]

https://theathletic.com/news/scott-boras-says-he-has-a-plan-to-fix-minor-league-baseballs-wage-issue/jt33qgvhnEoM/

 

Scott Boras with some positive ideas.

 

The $50,000 bonus after 3 minor league seasons kind of makes sense. But the $500,000 for making the majors does nothing to help the players toiling away in the minors.

[connorp]

I think the pay raise was a good thing and also housing will be good and should’ve been.

 

But also, you have to factor in signing bonus. Even a 10th round pick say, is actually getting paid $200k for 4 years when all is said and done (and in almost all cases not sniffing the majors). They also have half the years to pick up work. 50k in a non-big city, where minor league teams are, isn’t deplorable. Though with inflation rising, it’s getting there:)

 

At the end of 4 years, it’s time to start looking at your life. If you want to be the wanna be actor not making money, but chasing the dream…no boo hoos from me

[connorp]

I know this kid that was a couple years older than my son, Danny Watson. My son played up at times and played with him a bit. He got drafted in the 33rd round or something out of HS. Has a good dad, dad pushed him to school. He got drafted by NYY couple years ago or something. Doesn’t look like he’s going to make it. I guarantee you his dad is talking to him about Plan B

[connorp]

I mean, like I said, 4 years is a good timeline to chase the dream. You don’t want to give up after year or tow. Maybe more if there’s real progress/chance

[connorp]

Maybe make Boras’ idea after 4 years the player is due the bonus, so the team can decide if it wants to cut bait

[Spanky99]

I think the pay raise was a good thing and also housing will be good and should’ve been.

 

But also, you have to factor in signing bonus. Even a 10th round pick say, is actually getting paid $200k for 4 years when all is said and done (and in almost all cases not sniffing the majors). They also have half the years to pick up work. 50k in a non-big city, where minor league teams are, isn’t deplorable. Though with inflation rising, it’s getting there:)

 

At the end of 4 years, it’s time to start looking at your life. If you want to be the wanna be actor not making money, but chasing the dream…no boo hoos from me

 

What about prep players and IFA kids. Then you have all the guys that signed for f*** all. You can't look at it in that lens.

[Spanky99]

I know this kid that was a couple years older than my son, Danny Watson. My son played up at times and played with him a bit. He got drafted in the 33rd round or something out of HS. Has a good dad, dad pushed him to school. He got drafted by NYY couple years ago or something. Doesn’t look like he’s going to make it. I guarantee you his dad is talking to him about Plan B

 

Da fuq??? He was drafted this past year in the 15th rd and through 2 and 2/3 innings, lol. A guy with that body(6' 7" 235lbs) might just make the MLB as a reliever. That's not fair, ya dummy.

[connorp]

Da fuq??? He was drafted this past year in the 15th rd and through 2 and 2/3 innings, lol. A guy with that body(6' 7" 235lbs) might just make the MLB as a reliever. That's not fair, ya dummy.

 

I’m old. I lost track of time. Yeah he’s protectable. I wouldn’t s*** on my kids dreams until like year 4 as I said

[connorp]

What about prep players and IFA kids. Then you have all the guys that signed for f*** all. You can't look at it in that lens.

 

IFA guys get signing bonuses. Often times bigger than a 10th rounder. Plus even minor league salary represents a better standard of living than their home country.

 

As for the prep kids picked at the very end, that’s why their parents should tell them to go to school instead…they’re prob good enough to get scholarship, so that’d be smart move

[Spanky99]

IFA guys get signing bonuses. Often times bigger than a 10th rounder. Plus even minor league salary represents a better standard of living than their home country.

 

As for the prep kids picked at the very end, that’s why their parents should tell them to go to school instead…they’re prob good enough to get scholarship, so that’d be smart move

 

lol... so cause you're from a poor country, here, now you're a king at below minimum wage. Wow! There's a ton of players that get squat to come play, give your head a shake.

[connorp]

lol... so cause you're from a poor country, here, now you're a king at below minimum wage. Wow! There's a ton of players that get squat to come play, give your head a shake.

 

Truth hurts man. But seriously, I think they should get housing and they get meals. $500 on top of that for an A ball player isn’t bad, considering there was likely a bonus too. The off-season they dont deserve to be paid to train considering there’s a 1% chance they make the bigs.

[Deadpool]

They kind of look at it like University. You get a free education, and enough money to get by (barely).

Should we complain that Arts students should get free tuition, and $50,000 a year to live on.

The reason they are cutting milb positions is that the cost of keeping these guys around went up. The numbers don't work anymore.

Previously, if the average annual cost of a milb player was $40,000, the teams could afford to have 180 players per team. allowing them to keep longshots who only had a 1% chance of making the majors. But now with salary increases and mandatory housing, they can only keep 150 guys, just guys with a 3% chance of making the majors.

 

Arts students aren't under contract, and can freely go to another school that makes more sense to them. Minor league baseball players have an employment contract with a specific team, so their options are "deal with it" or "quit".

[JaysAllMighty]

Arts students aren't under contract, and can freely go to another school that makes more sense to them. Minor league baseball players have an employment contract with a specific team, so their options are "deal with it" or "quit".

 

So it's like any other jobs?

[Brownie19]

So it's like any other jobs?

 

Can minor league ball players "quit" their team and go sign/join another team?

[glory]

12:59 PM

@EvanDrellich MLB has arrived to hear the MLBPA’s latest proposal, and thus another collective bargaining meeting begins

 

1:18 PM

@EvanDrellich The meeting between MLB and the MLBPA has ended.

[The Cats Ass]

Can minor league ball players "quit" their team and go sign/join another team?

 

Yup. Just not an MLB/MiLB team.