GDT (3/3) | Blue Jays (23-18) vs. Red Sox (26-18) | May 20 — 7:37 PM

[Deadpool]

Well Espinal doesn't have enough at bats to take his major league numbers seriously. So you have to look at minor league numbers too.

 

The difference between them in the minors is about 30 points of on base percentage and 30 points of slugging... chances are the difference would be similar in the majors long term. Biggio is better.

 

You might consider platooning them. Not that Biggio has much of a platoon split, but perhaps both would perform better in a part time role. Or maybe they wouldn't.

 

Biggio will be fine at the plate, he just needs to get the f*** away from 3B and never go back there, but that's a problem since we have Semien playing the only position for which Biggio is suited.

 

I hope we keep Espinal around, I like him as a bench guy a LOT, and even more when you consider that the other option is Joe Panik.

[Daniel Labude]

I mean I agree he’s not the best reliever on the team, but he did have the easier tasast night of facing the 8-9-1 hitters and he f***ed that up royally.

 

There were plenty of times he pitched the 9th last season (and a few times this season) and he was absolutely fine, even had some nasty strikeouts in big situations.

 

Its not like Romano or Chatwood would have magically guaranteed a win by pitching the 9th

 

Agreed, but the odds of them imploding are less. If Romano was going to face BOS 2-3-4 hitters in the 8th, then roll the dice with Dolis in the 9th i guess if you have no one else, but it wasn't like Romano faced a gauntlet in the 8th. Devers is really good, but then its the same as if he came in for the 9th this game. That was just dumb managing imo

[Daniel Labude]

Biggio will be fine at the plate, he just needs to get the f*** away from 3B and never go back there, but that's a problem since we have Semien playing the only position for which Biggio is suited.

 

I hope we keep Espinal around, I like him as a bench guy a LOT, and even more when you consider that the other option is Joe Panik.

 

Biggio's issues are not position based. Its approached based at the plate and he is all over the map this season. Looks like he has a different approach and mindset each night

[Jgarza868899]

Biggio's issues are not position based. Its approached based at the plate and he is all over the map this season. Looks like he has a different approach and mindset each night

Someone who knows what they’re talking about.

[Jgarza868899]

Biggio will be fine at the plate, he just needs to get the f*** away from 3B and never go back there, but that's a problem since we have Semien playing the only position for which Biggio is suited.

 

I hope we keep Espinal around, I like him as a bench guy a LOT, and even more when you consider that the other option is Joe Panik.

 

Lol

[Deadpool]

Biggio's issues are not position based. Its approached based at the plate and he is all over the map this season. Looks like he has a different approach and mindset each night

 

Someone who knows what they’re talking about.

 

Lol

 

a) Biggio is simply not good at 3B, it's possible that he may improve, I don't know, but he's not suited there at the moment, and it's very, very difficult to mentally compartmentalize enough to NOT have an impact at the plate as well.

He's said that he tried a different approach in the off season to work on some stuff, it's not going well (it might eventually work, who knows) and he should probably attempt to revert to what made him a 4 WAR player over his first seasons worth of games.

c) If that Jgarza dude agrees with you, you should probably reconsider your position

[gruber92]

Biggio's issues are not position based. Its approached based at the plate and he is all over the map this season. Looks like he has a different approach and mindset each night

 

Biggio has a table setter type mentality at the plate, that's when he thrives. If you put him in a position where you're counting on him to put the ball in play more because there are lesser talented bats behind him, then that's not his comfort zone. He looks to me like he was born to bat ninth in a potent line up. His numbers batting lead off are far greater than batting fifth to seventh. I know you would rather have him get a possible extra at bat than Jansen/McGuire or Davis / Espinal, but he is who he is. Bat him ninth and let him thrive.

[Deadpool]

Biggio has a table setter type mentality at the plate, that's when he thrives. If you put him in a position where you're counting on him to put the ball in play more because there are lesser talented bats behind him, then that's not his comfort zone. He looks to me like he was born to bat ninth in a potent line up. His numbers batting lead off are far greater than batting fifth to seventh. I know you would rather have him get a possible extra at bat than Jansen/McGuire or Davis / Espinal, but he is who he is. Bat him ninth and let him thrive.

 

Man, that's weird... It's a seriously small sample size, but his numbers batting leadoff are GREAT, and in every other position in the lineup they're mostly awful (except batting 8th where they're about average).

 

I do think he's better suited to leadoff than Semien (I'm honestly not sure why Semien is the leadoff hitter while Springer is out...)

 

Career-wise, his best numbers come (in order) 8th, 7th, 1st, 2nd (wRC+ if 176, 130, 128, 121). He's apparently just bad when not at the top or bottom of the order. I haven't really looked at this particular split for anyone else, but that seems like a wide spread.

 

Of course, MOST of his career at bats are 1st or 2nd, and we're only dealing with a bit over a season's worth of total games, so it's still probably too small a sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions from... Interestingly, Cavan has never batted 9th in the majors.

[Daniel Labude]

Biggio has a table setter type mentality at the plate, that's when he thrives. If you put him in a position where you're counting on him to put the ball in play more because there are lesser talented bats behind him, then that's not his comfort zone. He looks to me like he was born to bat ninth in a potent line up. His numbers batting lead off are far greater than batting fifth to seventh. I know you would rather have him get a possible extra at bat than Jansen/McGuire or Davis / Espinal, but he is who he is. Bat him ninth and let him thrive.

 

Agreed. His best spot for how he wants to hit is probably leadoff, but that just isn't the best spot for the team with Springer and Semien. Batting him 9th would let him use the same mentality and should help him get back on track

[DigitalRock]

I agree the springer signing looking more and more like a mistake. Money diverted away from pitching

 

This is a facebook worthy bad post.

[connorp]

Biggio has a table setter type mentality at the plate, that's when he thrives. If you put him in a position where you're counting on him to put the ball in play more because there are lesser talented bats behind him, then that's not his comfort zone. He looks to me like he was born to bat ninth in a potent line up. His numbers batting lead off are far greater than batting fifth to seventh. I know you would rather have him get a possible extra at bat than Jansen/McGuire or Davis / Espinal, but he is who he is. Bat him ninth and let him thrive.

 

Agreed. This is how you start coaching in little league. Put the kid that can’t hit but knows how to take a walk and hit him at the bottom even though the kids ahead of him are worse

[Jgarza868899]

a) Biggio is simply not good at 3B, it's possible that he may improve, I don't know, but he's not suited there at the moment, and it's very, very difficult to mentally compartmentalize enough to NOT have an impact at the plate as well.

He's said that he tried a different approach in the off season to work on some stuff, it's not going well (it might eventually work, who knows) and he should probably attempt to revert to what made him a 4 WAR player over his first seasons worth of games.

c) If that Jgarza dude agrees with you, you should probably reconsider your position

 

Lol

[Jgarza868899]

People are weird. Defending a career .234 hitter to the extreme. Get a hobby

[Brownie19]

Only one of those people joined this month.

 

You're lucky TL...

[Olerud363]

People are weird. Defending a career .234 hitter to the extreme. Get a hobby

 

He's the ultimate under-rated player, low average, lots of walks, medium power.

 

Sort of defending a philosophy. On base percentage, positional flexibility, hard work, stick with guys through slumps.

[ShowtimeBelli]

Old member here. Got a new email since. Had kids and found less and less time to post. But I still read. I needed to create a new account to just ask... Who the heck let this Jgarza guy in here????

 

Anyways. Was nice to get that off my chest. Perhaps I'll make posting a thing again.

 

Cheers. And Let's go Blue Jays!

[Deadpool]

People are weird. Defending a career .234 hitter to the extreme. Get a hobby

 

People are citing batting averages like it's the f***ing 1980s or something.

[Brownie19]

I find it odd that so many are s***ing on Biggio and Tellez at the plate - and nobody is talking about Gurriel.

 

wRC+

Biggio 81

Espinal 77

Davis 76

Gurriel 51

Panik 47

Tellez 44

Jansen 34

 

Is Lourdes getting a pass because he's known as a 'slow starter' or a 'streaky' hitter?

 

Every one of Gurriel's advanced metrics are WAYYY down this year. Average exit velocity, Barrel %, Hard Hit %, etc. At least Biggio's average and max exit velocities are actually better than 2020 and 2019 - while most of the other metrics are all very similar.

 

If you look under the hood a bit, I think we should be a lot more concerned with Lourdes than we should Biggio (who has similar defensive liabilities which way less versatility).

Edited May 21, 2021 by Brownie19

[BlueRocky]

I'm not really concerned with either long term.

Gurriel's 2 month sample should not discount the 567 plate appearances in 2019 and 2020 when he was a well above average hitter (124 & 135 wRC+).

He's never been an on-base guy and walk rate guy, he puts barrel on baseball and gets paid to put runs on the board. Teoscar had a similar profile before his breakout, these type of bats are just more susceptible to wild swings in production. The approach has looked a bit off to start the season, but he's shown flashes of putting it together since the Atlanta series he's batting .303/.294/.394 which isn't great but better than his horrible start in April.

 

With Biggio the expectations aren't that high. He's an extreme plate discipline guy with below average bat to ball skills, and just enough power to occasionally run into one. He isn't the only flyball hitter with an extreme uppercut swing, it has worked for other guys. He just doesn't quite have the power to consistently drive it 400 ft +, but he's learning to hit it opposite field and hunting for better pitches to hit. He'll eventually figure it out, that eye is too good and we need his left handed bat in the lineup. The biggest caveat with Cavan is we don't have a position open for him, he has never been a reliable third baseman. 2B/RF serviceable but neither spots are really open under the current roster construction with everyone healthy.

[Jays24]

I find it odd that so many are s***ing on Biggio and Tellez at the plate - and nobody is talking about Gurriel.

 

wRC+

Biggio 81

Espinal 77

Davis 76

Gurriel 51

Panik 47

Tellez 44

Jansen 34

 

Is Lourdes getting a pass because he's known as a 'slow starter' or a 'streaky' hitter?

 

Every one of Gurriel's advanced metrics are WAYYY down this year. Average exit velocity, Barrel %, Hard Hit %, etc. At least Biggio's average and max exit velocities are actually better than 2020 and 2019 - while most of the other metrics are all very similar.

 

If you look under the hood a bit, I think we should be a lot more concerned with Lourdes than we should Biggio (who has similar defensive liabilities which way less versatility).

 

I give Gurriel a pass more than Biggio because I feel Gurriel has better tools to become a very good hitter. I don't have that same faith in Biggio even though he is definitely better than how he's performing at the moment.

 

Biggio's best skillset is to be a table setter by taking pitches and walks for the big boys behind him. With Springer occupying the leadoff spot for the foreseeable future, Biggio best attribute reduces greatly on the team. He has tried to be more aggressive this season to become a better run producer given his spot in the lineup but that has been a failure to this point. This is something I don't see changing that much so he should stick to what's gotten to this level regardless of where he's batting.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Jays24

[Brownie19]

I'm not really concerned with either long term.

Gurriel's 2 month sample should not discount the 567 plate appearances in 2019 and 2020 when he was a well above average hitter (124 & 135 wRC+).

He's never been an on-base guy and walk rate guy, he puts barrel on baseball and gets paid to put runs on the board. Teoscar had a similar profile before his breakout, these type of bats are just more susceptible to wild swings in production. The approach has looked a bit off to start the season, but he's shown flashes of putting it together since the Atlanta series he's batting .303/.294/.394 which isn't great but better than his horrible start in April.

 

With Biggio the expectations aren't that high. He's an extreme plate discipline guy with below average bat to ball skills, and just enough power to occasionally run into one. He isn't the only flyball hitter with an extreme uppercut swing, it has worked for other guys. He just doesn't quite have the power to consistently drive it 400 ft +, but he's learning to hit it opposite field and hunting for better pitches to hit. He'll eventually figure it out, that eye is too good and we need his left handed bat in the lineup. The biggest caveat with Cavan is we don't have a position open for him, he has never been a reliable third baseman. 2B/RF serviceable but neither spots are really open under the current roster construction with everyone healthy.

 

Yeah - just to be clear, I'm not overly concerned about Gurriel at this point either. It's just odd that the casual/trolls on the board are picking on Biggio and Tellez, but not Gurriel. If you look under the hood, they should be more concerned with Gurriel than possibly anyone else.

[JFD]

I find it odd that so many are s***ing on Biggio and Tellez at the plate - and nobody is talking about Gurriel.

 

wRC+

Biggio 81

Espinal 77

Davis 76

Gurriel 51

Panik 47

Tellez 44

Jansen 34

 

Is Lourdes getting a pass because he's known as a 'slow starter' or a 'streaky' hitter?

 

Every one of Gurriel's advanced metrics are WAYYY down this year. Average exit velocity, Barrel %, Hard Hit %, etc. At least Biggio's average and max exit velocities are actually better than 2020 and 2019 - while most of the other metrics are all very similar.

 

If you look under the hood a bit, I think we should be a lot more concerned with Lourdes than we should Biggio (who has similar defensive liabilities which way less versatility).

 

Gurriel is brain dead and needs glasses. Happy now?

[Brownie19]

I give Gurriel a pass more than Biggio because I feel Gurriel has better tools to become a very good hitter. I don't have that same faith in Biggio even though he is definitely better than how he's performing at the moment.

 

Biggio's best skillset is to be a table setter by taking pitches and walks for the big boys behind him. With Springer occupying the leadoff spot for the foreseeable future, Biggio best attribute reduces greatly on the team. He has tried to be more aggressive this season to become a better run producer given his spot in the lineup but that has been a failure to this point. This is something I don't see that changing much so he should stick to what's gotten to this level regardless of where he's batting.

 

Just to state the facts - Biggio has gone from the 100th percentile for chase rate (in 2019 and 2020) to the 81st percentile so far in 2021. Is he trying to be more aggressive and drive in runs? or is he simply pressing a bit after a slow start? I'm not sure anyone on this board knows the answer to that and it's not like it's fallen off the cliff. His incredible eye allows him to target pitches he can handle/drive and that's the root of his success.

 

Gurriel on the other hand may have all kinds of physical tools, but he has no eye or plate discipline at all. He's in the 4th percentile for chase rate right now and his career best was the 17th percentile last year (12th in 2019). There's typically no reason at all for a pitcher to throw him a strike - or at least anything that isn't on the edge of the strike zone. Unfortunately, that leads to him having to hit 'pitchers pitches' instead of pitches he can handle - while doing damage anytime a pitcher makes a mistake by throwing him something near the heart of the plate. This makes him very streaky. When he's going well, the mistakes end up getting hit into the gap or over the fence. When he's cold, he misses those mistakes.

 

Biggio and Gurriel are polar opposites, but I think you discount the 'tool' of plate discipline and the advantages it provides hitters.

[Deadpool]

Just to state the facts - Biggio has gone from the 100th percentile for chase rate (in 2019 and 2020) to the 81st percentile so far in 2021. Is he trying to be more aggressive and drive in runs? or is he simply pressing a bit after a slow start? I'm not sure anyone on this board knows the answer to that and it's not like it's fallen off the cliff. His incredible eye allows him to target pitches he can handle/drive and that's the root of his success.

 

Gurriel on the other hand may have all kinds of physical tools, but he has no eye or plate discipline at all. He's in the 4th percentile for chase rate right now and his career best was the 17th percentile last year (12th in 2019). There's typically no reason at all for a pitcher to throw him a strike - or at least anything that isn't on the edge of the strike zone. Unfortunately, that leads to him having to hit 'pitchers pitches' instead of pitches he can handle - while doing damage anytime a pitcher makes a mistake by throwing him something near the heart of the plate. This makes him very streaky. When he's going well, the mistakes end up getting hit into the gap or over the fence. When he's cold, he misses those mistakes.

 

Biggio and Gurriel are polar opposites, but I think you discount the 'tool' of plate discipline and the advantages it provides hitters.

 

During spring training, there were articles about Biggio being more aggressive at the plate. It clearly hasn't worked out so far (I mean, small sample size, maybe it will eventually?) and he should probably go back to his strengths...

 

Also, over the past 2 weeks, Biggio has a 112 wRC+ and a .380 OBP, so he MAY be trying out that whole "patience" thing again. Gurriel has looked decent over the past week (before the injury obviously) as well with a 104 wRC+ and 10 hits. Hopefully they're both trending in the right directions. (As always, sample sizes apply, but this whole season is still a small sample size...)

[Olerud363]

these type of bats are just more susceptible to wild swings in production

 

Is this really true? I doubt it.

 

Wade Bogg's is as different from Gurriel as you can get and in his prime he had months of .470 and .250 in the same year. Doubt any type of player has more variability than another.

 

What is true is that any hitter's bad month or two is terrible. Biggio's, Bogg's, Gurriel's, who-evers

 

If you're on base percentage is .320, it might be .220 in a bad month... So the mediocre hitter is god-awful terrible in bad months, and if the bad month happens at the beginning of the year people notice.

[Jgarza868899]

Gurriel is brain dead and needs glasses. Happy now?

I second this lol

[Jgarza868899]

Is this really true? I doubt it.

 

Wade Bogg's is as different from Gurriel as you can get and in his prime he had months of .470 and .250 in the same year. Doubt any type of player has more variability than another.

 

What is true is that any hitter's bad month or two is terrible. Biggio's, Bogg's, Gurriel's, who-evers

 

If you're on base percentage is .320, it might be .220 in a bad month... So the mediocre hitter is god-awful terrible in bad months, and if the bad month happens at the beginning of the year people notice.

 

He's the ultimate under-rated player, low average, lots of walks, medium power.

 

Sort of defending a philosophy. On base percentage, positional flexibility, hard work, stick with guys through slumps.

 

You’re a good poster. Along with jays24 and digital rock. 5 tool phenom as well.

[DigitalRock]

Yeah - just to be clear, I'm not overly concerned about Gurriel at this point either. It's just odd that the casual/trolls on the board are picking on Biggio and Tellez, but not Gurriel. If you look under the hood, they should be more concerned with Gurriel than possibly anyone else.

 

Do you ever stop whining? There are more posts of you whining then a couple morons over reacting, first GDT? All you are doing is s***ing up the thread even more. Gurriel has sucked so f ar..happy bro?

[Brownie19]

Do you ever stop whining? There are more posts of you whining then a couple morons over reacting, first GDT? All you are doing is s***ing up the thread even more. Gurriel has sucked so f ar..happy bro?

 

Eat a shriveled up, sweaty dick.

[King]

You’re a good poster. Along with jays24 and digital rock. 5 tool phenom as well.

What about me?