GDT: Toronto Blue Jays @ Seattle Mariners (3/3)

[Orgfiller]

That's still taking it up the ass. Sanchez will turn out to be a really good BP arm and we still don't know about Stevenson. Stevenson as of now has a better overall skill set than Fisher except for power.

 

You're a true idiot if you believe the last sentence is true.

[DigitalRock]

You're a true idiot if you believe the last sentence is true.

 

Gruber says a lot of dumb stuff...best to just ignore.

[gruber92]

Perfect example on how young hitters need to be more aware. First base open with a RHH in strike out prone Grichuk on deck. Tellez has got to know he's getting a 3-1 breaking ball and got a hanger. Hopefully he'll learn from this.

[Abomination]

I don't know how this FO evaluates defence. It's definitely different than whatever you can find on Fangraphs though, I'm pretty sure of that.

 

I highly doubt ANY front office is getting any of their decision-making information from Fangraphs. The data they have access to blows away anything we have at our disposal.

[gruber92]

You're a true idiot if you believe the last sentence is true.

 

Just going by what I've read up on regarding Stevenson. He's apparently an elite CF defender, is he not? Speed seems to be equal and his pitch recognition appears to be above average while having a low K rate. The defensive aspect from what I've read seems to be a big difference in favour of Stevenson.

[Jonn]

Fisher is nothing and so is the pieces Atkins gave up for him. Time to move on. Not worth arguing or stressing out about.

[gruber92]

You're a true idiot if you believe the last sentence is true.

 

So you don't think Atkins paid too much for Fisher?

[Jonn]

So you don't think Atkins paid too much for Fisher?

 

The only thing else that package would generate is a couple low minor lottery tickets at the most. I don’t know what you expected a package of struggling Sanchez, a generic reliever, and a low minors prospect whose ceiling might be a bench contributor was going to net you.

 

I didn’t like the trade but to really be arguing about weeks later is excessive at this point. Much worse moves have been made.

[Ex Player]

Great pitch to get Teo. Almost unhittable

[Jaysareus]

Brandon dreary will ground out weakly as usual

[Jaysareus]

Dreary sucks

[Jaysareus]

Despite bichettes play the team is still losing badly

[Ex Player]

Buchuolz looking not like 2019 Buchholz so far

You still think so?? I thought he was good today

[Orgfiller]

So you don't think Atkins paid too much for Fisher?

 

Three garbage assets for what you believe to be one garbage asset? Not at all, if anything it's good asset management as he opens up a 40-man spot and saves Sanchez's arb salary.

[5ToolPhenom]

I wish we still had Pillar. Would be better watching him out there, as we didn't get anything worth of value for him anyways.

[Orgfiller]

Just going by what I've read up on regarding Stevenson. He's apparently an elite CF defender, is he not? Speed seems to be equal and his pitch recognition appears to be above average while having a low K rate. The defensive aspect from what I've read seems to be a big difference in favour of Stevenson.

 

Lol elite CF defense my ass, is that why he played more games in LF than in CF at Dunedin? He's 22 in high A with zero power, that's a total non asset.

[5ToolPhenom]

Three garbage assets for what you believe to be one garbage asset? Not at all, if anything it's good asset management as he opens up a 40-man spot and saves Sanchez's arb salary.

 

Sanchez is a valuable piece though, he's just being mishandled. You put him back in the bullpen and odds are he's gonna contribute.

[Orgfiller]

Sanchez is a valuable piece though, he's just being mishandled. You put him back in the bullpen and odds are he's gonna contribute.

 

Aaron Sanchez is a terrible pitcher. The odds are absolutely not in his favour that he's put into the bullpen and he suddenly turns good. His fastball velocity has been declining and he has some of the worst command in baseball. If he were such a valuable piece the Blue Jays wouldn't have had to add on two other mediocre pieces to acquire Fisher, unless you think Fisher is actually valuable which would contradict what you're saying.

[Abomination]

I would bet there are some teams still in the dark ages like Colorado or Detroit lol. Actually they probably just use the eye test. But ya, even Statcast destroys Fangraphs for defensive metrics.

 

Teams have access to the raw data feeds (the raw data that Statcast uses to generate what they display), which they can use to generate their own stats.

[5ToolPhenom]

Aaron Sanchez is a terrible pitcher. The odds are absolutely not in his favour that he's put into the bullpen and he suddenly turns good. His fastball velocity has been declining and he has some of the worst command in baseball. If he were such a valuable piece the Blue Jays wouldn't have had to add on two other mediocre pieces to acquire Fisher, unless you think Fisher is actually valuable which would contradict what you're saying.

 

That's some interesting logic you have here. I think the Jays adding 2 other pieces in the trade says more about Luhnow's negotiating skills than it does the value of Fisher.

 

From what I remember, Sanchez has always produced well in the pen and his velocity historically went up when he was used in a limited role. It's only when he's been put in the rotation that the old problems start popping up again. Of course, I could be wrong. I just find it dumb that the Jays didn't try him in the pen before giving up on him for such a marginal piece.

[Orgfiller]

That's some interesting logic you have here. I think the Jays adding 2 other pieces in the trade says more about Luhnow's negotiating skills than it does the value of Fisher.

 

From what I remember, Sanchez has always produced well in the pen and his velocity historically went up when he was used in a limited role. It's only when he's been put in the rotation that the old problems start popping up again. Of course, I could be wrong. I just find it dumb that the Jays didn't try him in the pen before giving up on him for such a marginal piece.

 

Sanchez has all of 59 innings as a reliever, coming back in 2014 and 2015 which is when he was debuting in the MLB, you're making it seem like he's been bouncing between the rotation and the bullpen for years and it's been demonstrated that he immediately always gets better in the latter role. Relievers have good single season performances all the time, and then they turn into pumpkins immediately following that. Sanchez was good as a starting pitcher in 2016 and hasn't touched the bullpen since the 2015 postseason. Back then, when his velocity was at its peak, he still was only striking out ~21% of batters with a non-elite walk rate, both his K% and K-BB% from those seasons would be below the average for an MLB reliever in 2019. He's unlikely to continue his unsustainable .182 BABIP out of the bullpen, and his groundball rate which has gone down as the fastball has gotten worse will also suffer.

 

It's 2019, not 2015 or 2016, we have years of data of Aaron Sanchez being a terrible pitcher. A move to the bullpen won't magically fix him. The Jays essentially sold high on a two start sample where he struck out a good number of batters and then moved him for a guy with decent potential.

[gruber92]

Aaron Sanchez is a terrible pitcher. The odds are absolutely not in his favour that he's put into the bullpen and he suddenly turns good. His fastball velocity has been declining and he has some of the worst command in baseball. If he were such a valuable piece the Blue Jays wouldn't have had to add on two other mediocre pieces to acquire Fisher, unless you think Fisher is actually valuable which would contradict what you're saying.

 

Because Ross Atkins says so? There's a lot more involved than what our GM has to say.

[Orgfiller]

Because Ross Atkins says so? There's a lot more involved than what our GM has to say.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Ross Atkins doesn't just receive a call from an opposing GM, take a short walk to think it through and then trade away three pieces for one. There's a whole team advising him, running models on the players involved, scouts writing reports, and calls being made all over the place. The Blue Jays front office decided that it was worth moving Sanchez, Biagini and Cal Stevenson for Derek Fisher, just as it was the entire front office that decided it was worth to trade Stroman for Kay and Woods Richardson, Loup for Waguespack, Osuna for Giles, Hector Perez and Paulino, etc.

 

This same front office has built one of the best farm systems in baseball and continue to acquire pieces to bolster that, prioritizing the future and sustained success over short term gains.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Orgfiller

[Boxcar]

That's some interesting logic you have here. I think the Jays adding 2 other pieces in the trade says more about Luhnow's negotiating skills than it does the value of Fisher.

 

From what I remember, Sanchez has always produced well in the pen and his velocity historically went up when he was used in a limited role. It's only when he's been put in the rotation that the old problems start popping up again. Of course, I could be wrong. I just find it dumb that the Jays didn't try him in the pen before giving up on him for such a marginal piece.

 

Well, what you remember is wrong. Sanchez has been absolute trash his entire career outside of 2016, and that's when he was starting.

 

Man, I can't believe guys like you and Gruber are actually whining about losing Aaron f***ing Sanchez. Even if we got nothing in return,.and we didn't, who cares? Sanchez is a s***** pitcher who would have been non tendered. You take chances on guys like Fisher. If it works out, great, if it doesn't, it cost hardly anything to try.

[gruber92]

Well, what you remember is wrong. Sanchez has been absolute trash his entire career outside of 2016, and that's when he was starting.

 

Man, I can't believe guys like you and Gruber are actually whining about losing Aaron f***ing Sanchez. Even if we got nothing in return,.and we didn't, who cares? Sanchez is a s***** pitcher who would have been non tendered. You take chances on guys like Fisher. If it works out, great, if it doesn't, it cost hardly anything to try.

 

I think it's more of hating the fact that our GM has been coming out of trades looking like a putz for the most part . Yeah you guys are probably right that this trade involved nobody's, so it all shouldn't matter. There are a lot of people out there who believe that Sanchez has a better chance of being a contributor(in the pen) than Fisher does alone. The lottery aspect of the two seem to be comparable, so when you throw in Biagini and Stevenson, it appears to be an overpay, regardless if all the players involved are s***.

[Krylian]

I think it's more of hating the fact that our GM has been coming out of trades looking like a putz for the most part . Yeah you guys are probably right that this trade involved nobody's, so it all shouldn't matter. There are a lot of people out there who believe that Sanchez has a better chance of being a contributor(in the pen) than Fisher does alone. The lottery aspect of the two seem to be comparable, so when you throw in Biagini and Stevenson, it appears to be an overpay, regardless if all the players involved are s***.

 

You're saying this like you think that s*** player do/should have value. Biagini had essentially no value. Stevenson is a PTBNL type prospect so he really didn't have any true value either.

 

People are making way too much out of this trade. It's scrap pieces for Houston's scrap piece that 2 years ago was seen as a possible building block.

 

The most likely outcome is 4 players that never realize their potential.

[FrozenRopes]

Well, what you remember is wrong. Sanchez has been absolute trash his entire career outside of 2016, and that's when he was starting.

 

Man, I can't believe guys like you and Gruber are actually whining about losing Aaron f***ing Sanchez. Even if we got nothing in return,.and we didn't, who cares? Sanchez is a s***** pitcher who would have been non tendered. You take chances on guys like Fisher. If it works out, great, if it doesn't, it cost hardly anything to try.

 

It is that he has 4 great pitches in a game. Like guys who make one 18 foot putt per round and suddenly they should be on tour.

 

Aaron was declining into the trash the moment that finger started to become an issue.

 

Why are you even talking about a past player? He's gone for good.

[Brownie19]

That's some interesting logic you have here. I think the Jays adding 2 other pieces in the trade says more about Luhnow's negotiating skills than it does the value of Fisher.

 

From what I remember, Sanchez has always produced well in the pen and his velocity historically went up when he was used in a limited role. It's only when he's been put in the rotation that the old problems start popping up again. Of course, I could be wrong. I just find it dumb that the Jays didn't try him in the pen before giving up on him for such a marginal piece.

 

In the VERY best case - Sanchez in the 2020 pen could have become Chris Martin or a Mark Melancon. Firstly, you've have to pay Sanchez $4-$5M to see if he could be that good and secondly, those guys didn't return anything of value as rentals anyway (Melancon has 1 year of control left).

 

Fisher has warts, but keeping Sanchez and making him good out of the pen (if that's still possible) wasn't going to net you some stud prospect either man.

[glory]

I didn't like it for the Jays initially, only because I didn't think we needed to add anything (Stevenson) to get a player who was about to be out of options with no role on his team, but yeah it really seems like both teams buying at the lowest value and hoping to get anything of value out of it. Jays hoping they can fix Fish and Astros hoping they could fix Sanchez + get anything out of Biagini/Stevenson. Ultimately seems like a pretty blah trade for both teams.

[DigitalRock]

Well, what you remember is wrong. Sanchez has been absolute trash his entire career outside of 2016, and that's when he was starting.

 

Man, I can't believe guys like you and Gruber are actually whining about losing Aaron f***ing Sanchez. Even if we got nothing in return,.and we didn't, who cares? Sanchez is a s***** pitcher who would have been non tendered. You take chances on guys like Fisher. If it works out, great, if it doesn't, it cost hardly anything to try.

 

Gruber posts some of the dumbest s*** on this forum..if gruber is agreeing with you it's usually a sign you should drop the topic lol.