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Blue jays all time greatest players

FDJAYS

By FDJAYS
in Toronto Blue Jays Talk

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vdubmvp FCL Blue Jays

vdubmvp

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
"Hey, greatest Blue Jays list......"

 

8geZ.gif

 

Damn I somehow forgot that he always had hideous hair.

Orgfiller All-Star

Orgfiller

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted (edited)
Dave Steib not being on that card is an absolute disgrace.

 

He's literally the first card on that display. Get your eyes checked old man.

Edited by Orgfiller
Dick_Pole FCL Blue Jays

Dick_Pole

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
He was the 6th best player on the World Series teams. White, Olerud, Alomar, Winfield/Molitor/, Lee/Fernandez were all better.

 

He was closer to Candy Maldonado or Ed Sprague in terms of production, than White/Alomar/Molitor/Olerud.

 

(edit) by closer I mean Carter beat Candy 2.9 to 2.3, he beat Sprague, 2-1.4... White/Alomar/Olerud/Molitor were like 6ish WAR player in 92/93.

 

Ah Olerud's revisionist history. First off, Grichuk isn't a comparable because Joe Carter came with significant pedigree. One of the game's best known sluggers that was clearly an above average bat even by modern metrics. The man was intentionally walked more than anyone else on the team in 1991 so clearly it wasn't just the Blue Jays or myself who held him in high regards, correct or not.

 

You go back and forth between debating overall value of a player and hitting-focused items like production and batting order. But in terms of value at the plate, Carter was tops in OPS+ in 1991 and had 5th best in 1992 and 1993, but was a lot closer to the top guys than the average guys, at least in 1992. White and Alomar are twice as good as Carter because of the value on defense they provide. I know OPS+ isn't this board's preferred metric, but that's what BR offers when looking at the year by year team rosters and that's the limit of research I am willing to do on this.

 

Also - and I know you're super sensitive about this - but the team wasn't built around a 35 year old with limited fielding ability post-WS years. Delgado and Green were coming up and it was clear that both Carter and Olerud were placeholders, Cito Gaston aside.

Dick_Pole FCL Blue Jays

Dick_Pole

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
He's literally the first card on that display. Get your eyes checked ols man.

 

Also, gotta love the thought process on this.

 

"Hmm, I'm the 40th comment in this thread and not one person has mentioned Steib. These dipshit younguns don't know their Blue Jays history! It couldn't just be that I must have missed his name."

Olerud363 FCL Blue Jays

Olerud363

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Ah Olerud's revisionist history. First off, Grichuk isn't a comparable because Joe Carter came with significant pedigree. One of the game's best known sluggers that was clearly an above average bat even by modern metrics. The man was intentionally walked more than anyone else on the team in 1991 so clearly it wasn't just the Blue Jays or myself who held him in high regards, correct or not.

 

You go back and forth between debating overall value of a player and hitting-focused items like production and batting order. But in terms of value at the plate, Carter was tops in OPS+ in 1991 and had 5th best in 1992 and 1993, but was a lot closer to the top guys than the average guys, at least in 1992. White and Alomar are twice as good as Carter because of the value on defense they provide. I know OPS+ isn't this board's preferred metric, but that's what BR offers when looking at the year by year team rosters and that's the limit of research I am willing to do on this.

 

Also - and I know you're super sensitive about this - but the team wasn't built around a 35 year old with limited fielding ability post-WS years. Delgado and Green were coming up and it was clear that both Carter and Olerud were placeholders, Cito Gaston aside.

 

It's certainly not revitionist history Dick.

 

a) I pointed out Grichuk doesn't play 162 games hitting 3rd, partly because of health, partly because he's Grichuk. Other than that he is a good match for Carter. Grichuk's 2015 in 103 games is a good match for Carter's 1986. Grichuk's 2016 to 2018 are close to Carter's 92. Numbers go up and down, even WAR. Carter had a couple 5 WAR seasons, but had a -2 WAR season right in the middle of his prime. He was a 2.5 WAR player who played 162 games a year. Given 162 games a year and enough time Grichuk would probably have a negative season and a 4 or 5 WAR season.

 

B) They signed Carter to an extension at 35 while trading Olerud at 28 with 30 WAR and another 1993 remaining in his career. They played Carter every single day for 4 years after the world series while losing everyone else, and platooning Olerud (with the occassional rest against righties to get Jacob Brumfield time).

 

FYI - Green and to a smaller extent Delgado weren't a focus of the team until Vietnam Vet Tim Johnson took over. In 1997 Green (at this point in his 3rd season and 24 years old) had to sit patiently while they tried out Ruben Sierra and Juan Samuel. When Green finally got 500 at bats he had soured on the organization and wouldn't sign long term, and had to be sent out for Raul Mondesi. If they were building around him they didn't do a great job. And ironically got (what they thought) was another great one in the mold of Carter and George Bell (I like Bell a lot better then Carter). Mondesi unfortunately was more Carter than Bell, without the supporting cast and the health to play 162 games.

 

And actually Mondesi was another guy whos WAR is a lot like Carter's (without as many -2 seasons). 4 or 5 a couple years, a lot of 2s, and shipped for nothing eventually. Why is Carter valued so much higher then Mondesi (I can accept he's loved more obviously, but valued more?)

Olerud363 FCL Blue Jays

Olerud363

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Just so everyone can understand why I am so upitty about this.

 

The day after the 1993 World Series

 

John Olerud had 37 of his 53 career WAR left in him, a repeat of the magical 1993 season (in 1998), and several solid years to come.

 

Joe Carter had -8 WAR left in him (that's negative).

 

The Jays decided to play Carter every single game after that and signed him to an extension for 1997, while platooning and marginalizing Olerud (by 1996 he didn't get 400 at bats and wasn't on the DL).

DigitalRock FCL Blue Jays

DigitalRock

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Carter is in this and every list for good reason that everyone knows. Nobody remembers or cares about his flailing around in the outfield, blaming the Skydome lights, except the stats that have been invented after the fact. There is more to it about these meaningless lists than your stupid f***ing WAR counts.

 

Nonsense. Carter is on these lists because people are stupid and let emotion dictate their thoughts.

Olerud363 FCL Blue Jays

Olerud363

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Nonsense. Carter is on these lists because people are stupid and let emotion dictate their thoughts.

 

It's insane. Carter = Candy Maldonado or Brook Jacoby... I mean not exactly... he got his 4.6 WAR season or two, but so did Jacoby. Maldanodo was the same guy without 162 games in the 3rd spot, didn't get the 4.6 WAR season, but didn't get the -2 WAR season either.

 

The only reason we talk about him is that he got 162 games a year in the 3rd spot on good teams and racked up RBI totals.

 

In fact Jacoby isn't remembered because he hit behind Carter so didn't get RBIs. Olerud lost a potential MVP partly because he got a bit cold in September 1993... but partly because he hit behind Carter. If it was AMOCW, Olerud and Carter would of probably both had 130 rbis, maybe Olerud would of won the 1993 MVP and Carter the RBI title... it would been better for both of them.

 

However out of a deep and serious and integral respect for White and Carter the entire team (and Carter himself) had to be put in a non-optimal situation.

Deadpool Buffalo Bisons

Deadpool

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Carter was involved in some of the greatest moments (including THE greatest moment) in franchise history, but by no means was he one of the best players in franchise history.
Dick_Pole FCL Blue Jays

Dick_Pole

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Nonsense. Carter is on these lists because people are stupid and let emotion dictate their thoughts.

 

Exactly. Thus things "other than stupid f***ing WAR" impact meaningless lists like this.

 

And in terms of people being stupid, yes I agree with this in a general sense. As far as fans being stupid for liking Carter more than Olerud, I don't agree with that. It's not like this impacts their lives in any way. Let them like who they want. Who the f*** wants to cheer for that helmet-wearing weirdo over a cool black dude who sets up fine golf tournies? f*** you. Carter was the best.

Bobthe4th Toronto Blue Jays

Bobthe4th

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Talking about players who are more popular than great - Ryan Goins is back in the majors!

 

Bobthe4th Toronto Blue Jays

Bobthe4th

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
An overrated/popular Jays lineup would be fun to put together. McDonald, Kawasaki, Lawrie, Snider are all candidates.
Krylian MVP

Krylian

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
An overrated/popular Jays lineup would be fun to put together. McDonald, Kawasaki, Lawrie, Snider are all candidates.

 

Joe Carter and Mookie f***ing Wilson

Spanky99 GOAT

Spanky99

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
An overrated/popular Jays lineup would be fun to put together. McDonald, Kawasaki, Lawrie, Snider are all candidates.

 

I would like to think, this exercise would not be fun!

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