Keith Law

[King]

Tom

1:14 Trent thorton - whats his ceiling?

 

 

Keith Law

1:14 It's top-of-the-line stuff with below-average command, and I'm not sure he can ever have the command to get to starter quality.

[Ray]

Career 1.7 BB/9 in over 450 innings pitched

[Boxcar]

Top of the line stuff with below average command isn't enough to be a starter (even granting his point about below-average command, which is ********).

 

Like, Aaron Sanchez is a starter currently. That doesn't make any sense. Top of the line stuff with below-average command sounds like a #3 starter at minimum.

[King]

This just might be one of the dumbest things Law has ever said. Coming from the guy who was adamant Severino would be a reliever.

[Boxcar]

This just might be one of the dumbest things Law has ever said. Coming from the guy who was adamant Severino would be a reliever.

 

I believe he would use Severino's current injury situation to justify that position.

[Pendleton]

Did he mix up Thornton and SRF?

[Boxcar]

Did he mix up Thornton and SRF?

 

Wouldn't surprise me tbh

[King]

 

no, he actually thinks this lol

[Terminator]

Seems to have really good control which is different than command but you'd think with "top of the line stuff", really good control and bad command (over what pitches he doesnt day) he'd be a perfectly capable starter.

[Terminator]

This just might be one of the dumbest things Law has ever said. Coming from the guy who was adamant Severino would be a reliever.

 

Yeah even if the scouting report is accurate (it's not) his conclusion simply doesnt follow.

[King]

Charlie Indio Montoyo: Keith. I really respect your opinion alot. I just want to know why you think Thornton has below average command and control. He’s had a a 1.7 BB/9 in his entire minor league career (spanning nearly 450 IP), and he’s been able to locate his pitches really well in his first 2 starts (granted small sample size obviously).

 

Keith Law: Walk rate is not command.

 

 

this guy just doesn't get it

[tercet]

this guy just doesn't get it

 

Process > Results

 

Hell yea Klaw has been wrong on plenty of guys, why do you guys hate him so much now, TT has 2 career mlb starts, lol

[Laika]

Seems to have really good control which is different than command but you'd think with "top of the line stuff", really good control and bad command (over what pitches he doesnt day) he'd be a perfectly capable starter.

 

This is a big baseball pet peeve of mine. It has to be a complete and utter myth, logically.

 

There is no logical way that command and control are different skills. As any pitcher's "control" (call it whatever you want) improves their error radius will just shrink. That's all there is to the whole thing.

 

Good "command" (being able to hit the corners, etc.) is just exceptional "control" (being able to throw strikes).

 

I would say, on the 20-80 scale:

 

20 = no idea where it is going. bounces pitches, hits batters frequently.

30 = cannot throw strikes consistently and often misses badly. high walk rate.

40 = can keep it around the zone most of the time but will frequently miss across the zone. above average walk rate.

50 = can throw strikes consistently, struggles to hit the glove though. average walk rate. control might be good with one pitch, poor with others.

60 = can throw strikes nearly at will, can hit the glove more often than not. below average walk rate.

70 = can throw strikes at will, can throw to all edges and corners most of them time. sublime walk rate; "great command". control might be a bit worse with certain pitches.

80 = elite pitch placement, reads bats and adjusts placement accordingly, can throw any and all pitches with the desired movement and placement. If he's not pitching around someone, the walk was probably the umpire or catcher's fault.

[King]

Trent Thornton

 

• has shown the ability to consistently post sub 2 BB rates in the minors
  
• is doing it in the MLB (albeit only 2 starts)
  
• is said to have "below average command"
  
• this means, despite being able to post low walk rates, his below average command means he will never be an MLB quality starter
  

 

[bones10]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBpkxPt1dHI

 

I think he hit his spot for every single one of his strikeouts in the first game of the season.

[Boxcar]

 

no, he actually thinks this lol

 

 

man, what a f***ing insufferable cock this guy is

[bones10]

 

man, what a f***ing insufferable cock this guy is

 

did he unironically use the term fansplaining...

[Boxcar]

Well he's right in that you can have a low BB/9 and have poor command if you're just piping middle-middle fastballs all the time like Josh Towers. But I think Thornton's command is closer to average.

 

I think control is just a result but command is a process. Control = BB/9 and that's it. If you pipe everything and the hitters you face swing first pitch every time and murder you, you will have a low BB/9 and good control.

 

I don't agree. If you had good control and poor command, why would your pitches always end up down the middle of the plate? Why wouldn't they also veer off outside the zone? I've yet to see a demonstrated difference between control and command that wasn't merely a result of s***** stuff. Max Scherzer throws fastballs down the middle as often as any pitcher in baseball.

[Boxcar]

Process > Results

 

Hell yea Klaw has been wrong on plenty of guys, why do you guys hate him so much now, TT has 2 career mlb starts, lol

 

Because he's an ******* and people tend to not like *******s.

[Laika]

Well he's right in that you can have a low BB/9 and have poor command if you're just piping middle-middle fastballs all the time like Josh Towers. But I think Thornton's command is closer to average.

 

I think control is just a result but command is a process. Control = BB/9 and that's it. If you pipe everything and the hitters you face swing first pitch every time and murder you, you will have a low BB/9 and good control.

 

As boxy said...

 

It's possible to have good control and s***** stuff. Lots of pitchers exist who can put meatballs wherever they want, and then hitters put them in the seats a lot of the time.

[Pendleton]

Because he's an ******* and people tend to not like *******s.

 

Two pots dispute over the colour of a kettle, this is fascinating.

[Angrioter]

Law is a joke. A la mierda el

[Terminator]

This is a big baseball pet peeve of mine. It has to be a complete and utter myth, logically.

 

There is no logical way that command and control are different skills. As any pitcher's "control" (call it whatever you want) improves their error radius will just shrink. That's all there is to the whole thing.

 

Good "command" (being able to hit the corners, etc.) is just exceptional "control" (being able to throw strikes).

 

I would say, on the 20-80 scale:

 

20 = no idea where it is going. bounces pitches, hits batters frequently.

30 = cannot throw strikes consistently and often misses badly. high walk rate.

40 = can keep it around the zone most of the time but will frequently miss across the zone. above average walk rate.

50 = can throw strikes consistently, struggles to hit the glove though. average walk rate. control might be good with one pitch, poor with others.

60 = can throw strikes nearly at will, can hit the glove more often than not. below average walk rate.

70 = can throw strikes at will, can throw to all edges and corners most of them time. sublime walk rate; "great command". control might be a bit worse with certain pitches.

80 = elite pitch placement, reads bats and adjusts placement accordingly, can throw any and all pitches with the desired movement and placement. If he's not pitching around someone, the walk was probably the umpire or catcher's fault.

 

It is a little silly because command and control overlap to a large degree. But it's the industry standard so I use the same terms.

 

It was always my understanding that control is simply the ability to avoid walks. Command is the ability to locate pitches within the zone, but since each pitcher throws each of their pitches at a different ability it really has to be broken down pitch by pitch. Someone could have good fastball command but s*** command over their breaking ball.

[Terminator]

As boxy said...

 

It's possible to have good control and s***** stuff. Lots of pitchers exist who can put meatballs wherever they want, and then hitters put them in the seats a lot of the time.

 

But couldn't you also have good stuff and s***** command? And then on top of it you avoid walks anyway simply because you work the outer halves of the plate instead of the outer corners? It's almost splitting hairs but I see why the two different terms exist.

[Slade]

Process > Results

 

Hell yea Klaw has been wrong on plenty of guys, why do you guys hate him so much now, TT has 2 career mlb starts, lol

 

It's actually hilarious how triggering Klaw is on this board. I can't tell if you trigger everyone more or he does. Everybody get's prospects wrong.

[Terminator]

Process > Results

 

Hell yea Klaw has been wrong on plenty of guys, why do you guys hate him so much now, TT has 2 career mlb starts, lol

 

It's like I said before, even if Klaw's scouting report is right, how does that add up to not being "starter quallity"?

 

-Top of the line stuff

-Below average command

-Really good control

 

^That's not good enough to be a #3 or #4? That reads like a #2 or #3 to me.

 

All that said I think Thornton is probably a solid #4 maybe? I just don't understand Klaw's scouting report nor do I get the conclusion he gleans off of it.

[Boxcar]

But couldn't you also have good stuff and s***** command? And then on top of it you avoid walks anyway simply because you work the outer halves of the plate instead of the outer corners? It's almost splitting hairs but I see why the two different terms exist.

 

Can you provide a real life example of a player that fits this profile?

[Boxcar]

Two pots dispute over the colour of a kettle, this is fascinating.

 

You're so mean

[jaysblue]

This just might be one of the dumbest things Law has ever said. Coming from the guy who was adamant Severino would be a reliever.

 

Keith Law has really gone downhill, since he has become a huge SJW and too WOKE.

[BlueRocky]

He doesn't even watch the Blue Jays. Why do we give half a crap about his opinion?