Around Baseball 2019

[Laika]

Wonder how desperate they are to get out of some of the contract? Morales for Edwin + decent prospect?

 

$14M difference in the contracts. They have a thin system so you're probably looking at a C+ prospect who probably isn't even worth that much on paper.

 

Not a bad idea though. The casuallllsssss would like it.

[Brownie19]

 

Craig Kimbrel: One of the best closers of all time--yet is still unemployed. He needs to lower his demands on years--teams are seeing the issues with Kenley Jansen(heart, and showing signs of decline already at age 30), and Chapman (while still elite, his walk rate is soaring and he is increasingly having difficulty staying healthy), and of course, let's not forget when the Jays threw money at BJ Ryan in the 2005 offseason--that deal blew up in the Jays face, as Ryan had TJS in 2007, and was basically out of baseball by late 2009.

 

 

FIFY. He's arguably better than Mo was at this point in his career.

[Brownie19]

I kind of don't blame aces for hating the "opener". Takes away any possibility for a shutout/no-hitter/perfect game.

 

Kinda can't wait for the first time an opener is used, and then the 2nd guy comes in and fires off 8 innings of no-hit ball. Can see a lot of controversy with that.

 

I wouldn't say he's a little bitch at all, it's totally understandable. These are professionals the would live for a moment like that. To throw a perfect game would be a dream of theirs. With this you're taking that dream away from them.

 

Right - because personal goals and dreams mean more than team success. The opener hasn't 'yet' been used with 'ace' level pitchers either.....and Bochy put it best. If Madbum doesn't want to be used with an opener - pitch better. Madbum's been hurt the past 2 years and hasn't pitched nearly as good as he did in his prime.

[Abomination]

$14M difference in the contracts. They have a thin system so you're probably looking at a C+ prospect who probably isn't even worth that much on paper.

 

Not a bad idea though. The casuallllsssss would like it.

 

Yeah, I was kinda eyeing Evan White who probably fits that bill. Could profile as a young Overbay with more speed if his development progresses well. Maybe you get a lottery ticket reliever prospect thrown in too. Would probably bump attendance with the casuals enough to cover some of the contract difference.

[glory]

$14M difference in the contracts. They have a thin system so you're probably looking at a C+ prospect who probably isn't even worth that much on paper.

 

Not a bad idea though. The casuallllsssss would like it.

 

If Shatkins cared about optics (they don't), that's actually a pretty decent idea as long as the prospect coming back at least had upside. Won't happen though.

[Brownie19]

If Shatkins cared about optics (they don't), that's actually a pretty decent idea as long as the prospect coming back at least had upside. Won't happen though.

 

There's also a strong possibility that Seattle wants something in return for him....they may not want to give up a prospect just to shed some $$$.

[The Cats Ass]

Right - because personal goals and dreams mean more than team success. The opener hasn't 'yet' been used with 'ace' level pitchers either.....and Bochy put it best. If Madbum doesn't want to be used with an opener - pitch better. Madbum's been hurt the past 2 years and hasn't pitched nearly as good as he did in his prime.

 

For the majority of the players I feel the answer is yes.

[Brownie19]

For the majority of the players I feel the answer is yes.

 

Precisely what makes him a little bitch.

 

"Hey guy who pays me millions of dollars and you other guy who is paid to help this team win - don't change how you're doing things because I personally want the outside chance at some arbitrary personal achievement that only means something due to traditions created by sub-optimal managing from a time when we didn't have the information we do today."

[Brownie19]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/1714188/madbum-if-you-use-an-opener-in-my-game-im-walking-out-of-the-ballpark

 

Madbum's trending down in my books. He sounds like the modern day Goose Gossage. I guess he's just positioning himself as best he can for a big payday? meh - he sounds like a little bitch.

 

Holy s*** - I made the mistake of looking at the Yahoo comments on this story....

 

Bob Gibson pitched for 17 seasons. From 1963 through 1974 he averaged 18.5 complete games, 263 innings and 19.45 wins per season. Now he was a pitcher.

 

So basically this practice is just converting starting pitchers to glorified long relievers.

 

I remember more than two to three decades ago when we actually had single game pitcher complete games! What a novelty. In those days the third even fourth rated pitcher on a team could literally have more individual complete games in a season than an entire team does today!!!

 

Greg Maddux once threw a complete game with 76 pitches. Just sayin'

 

I'd be extremely disappointed if Bum said he was ok with an "opener". I want the starting pitchers to have the attitude that they will start and finish a game not just "let me get through 5 innings". I love baseball but some of these methods they're trying to use these days is lessening the durability of some of these players. You look at the early 90s and before and pitchers were throwing many more innings and pitches and not suffering the same injuries as today. I don't have the stats in front of me, it I would venture to guess most of those pitchers (the good ones obviously) pitched even longer in the majors then most of the pitchers of today last too. Analytics can be a useful tool, but it also can be detrimental .

 

Back in the day, MLB didn't even have closers, much less middle-relievers...but now openers? Good grief.

 

Using openers will eventually ruin baseball if the trend grows. Instead, why don't coaches quit babying their starters as they are coming up through the system and let them develop some stamina and strength to be able to pitch six or seven or eight innings each start?

 

Is Yahoo the unofficial home of senior citizens? I hope to god I never become this close minded. How difficult is it to understand that hitters are significantly better now then they were 30 years ago? They understand mechanics better, they train better, they eat better, etc. Pitching has likewise transformed to counter these changes. You can't be a great pitcher with a K/9 of 5.2 and a BB/9 of 3.2 anymore (like Dave Stieb). The vast majority (95%?) of pitchers can't succeed by pacing themselves and trying to throw a CG anymore.

 

I assume we're past the days when teams want the starting pitchers to have the attitude that they will start and finish a game right? I have to assume they are more educated now - explaining that their job is to go flat out as long as they can and "get through 5 or 6 innings" because that's how they'll be most successful. This isn't that difficult of concept to understand. I know people hate change, but c'mon people.

[BTS]

Precisely what makes him a little bitch.

 

"Hey guy who pays me millions of dollars and you other guy who is paid to help this team win - don't change how you're doing things because I personally want the outside chance at some arbitrary personal achievement that only means something due to traditions created by sub-optimal managing from a time when we didn't have the information we do today."

 

I don't really buy the idea that SF's odds of winning a game are tangibly lower if Bum starts than if some reliever starts and Bum comes in for the 2nd inning. Certainly not by enough to make him uncomfortable.

[Captain Adama]

I don't really buy the idea that SF's odds of winning a game are tangibly lower if Bum starts than if some reliever starts and Bum comes in for the 2nd inning. Certainly not by enough to make him uncomfortable.

 

I figured the opener was meant to take the place for pitchers whom were expected to get slammed when they had already gone through the order a time or two, not above average or better starters.

[Dick_Pole]

I've said this a couple of times already but this opener ******** is going to open the floodgates for bullpen games becoming the norm and a future scenario where guys like Bumgarner no longer exist. Especially if they expand rosters and don't limit transactions.

 

We all know that developing young pitchers is more risky and therefore a sub-optimal use of resources. So what's the most efficient way for a "progressive" front office to compete? By putting all of their resources to signing and developing position players and filling out pitching as an afterthought.

 

You can get 3 WAR over 200 IP a year for 10 years out of one guy by using up a first round draft pick and paying him over $100 million during that time. Or you can mimic that production over several different pitchers a year found out of a dumpster by optimizing their use and spend much less in terms of draft picks and cash. What do you think will happen? s***** teams that can't afford real payrolls like the Rays will exploit this idea and other teams will have to follow suit to compete.

 

Maybe some of you masochists out there will get off seeing teams use thirty Ryan Teperas a year as long as you know there's a computer algorithm behind optimizing their use. Me, I personally will weep for seeing the end of the Halladay type of pitchers who were good enough to get guys out the third and fourth time they saw them.

[Laika]

I don't care about bullpen strategies replacing Sam Gaviglio starts, but anything past that is hard to get on board with purely as a fan.

 

That's perhaps the main reason I am against roster expansion. The rumor from a week ago about 26 man rosters made me frown.

[Ray]

I've said this a couple of times already but this opener ******** is going to open the floodgates for bullpen games becoming the norm and a future scenario where guys like Bumgarner no longer exist. Especially if they expand rosters and don't limit transactions.

 

We all know that developing young pitchers is more risky and therefore a sub-optimal use of resources. So what's the most efficient way for a "progressive" front office to compete? By putting all of their resources to signing and developing position players and filling out pitching as an afterthought.

 

You can get 3 WAR over 200 IP a year for 10 years out of one guy by using up a first round draft pick and paying him over $100 million during that time. Or you can mimic that production over several different pitchers a year found out of a dumpster by optimizing their use and spend much less in terms of draft picks and cash. What do you think will happen? s***** teams that can't afford real payrolls like the Rays will exploit this idea and other teams will have to follow suit to compete.

 

Maybe some of you masochists out there will get off seeing teams use thirty Ryan Teperas a year as long as you know there's a computer algorithm behind optimizing their use. Me, I personally will weep for seeing the end of the Halladay type of pitchers who were good enough to get guys out the third and fourth time they saw them.

 

We're never going back to the days of pitchers like Roy Halladay, and that was apparent even before the opener became a thing.

 

If there are pitchers rotting away in the minor leagues because teams are waiting for them to develop into competent starters, I don't mind the idea of bringing them up to be used as an opener if that's how they can provide maximum value. Good on them for getting paid. And at the end of the day, if a pitcher proves themselves capable of being a Sale or Scherzer type workhorse, the opener will literally have zero impact on them as those types are always going to have spots. The opener is really just the death of the mediocre 4th/5th starter.

[jaysfan2014]

As for why Edwin is still stuck in Seattle--no teams are really willing to pay for a declining 1B/DH type, and if Seattle thinks they're getting anything in return, forget it! At best, they're likely going to have to swap another bad contract in return (Morales?) and/or eat tons of cash to get a marginal propspect at best. Too many DH/1Bs are on the market.. and most of their values are basically non-existent.

 

Mariners are basically stuck with him unless a major injury hits.

[jaysfan2014]

Happy trails to AJ Ellis--he is going to the Padres org. as a special assistant to baseball ops.

 

[BTS]

I don't care about bullpen strategies replacing Sam Gaviglio starts, but anything past that is hard to get on board with purely as a fan.

 

That's perhaps the main reason I am against roster expansion. The rumor from a week ago about 26 man rosters made me frown.

 

There was a poll a week or two a go on FG and something like 75% of their readers approved of a move to 26-man rosters. It surprised me, because it's just going to be another generic FB/SL reliever that will make it easier for teams to shift further away from the concept of starting pitchers.

[Brownie19]

I don't really buy the idea that SF's odds of winning a game are tangibly lower if Bum starts than if some reliever starts and Bum comes in for the 2nd inning. Certainly not by enough to make him uncomfortable.

 

I don't disagree - the issue is simply that he's uncomfortable with change to the point that he'll tell the FO that he'll walk out on the team if they employ a particular strategy. I don't like his sense of entitlement.

[jaysfan2014]

I don't disagree - the issue is simply that he's uncomfortable with change to the point that he'll tell the FO that he'll walk out on the team if they employ a particular strategy. I don't like his sense of entitlement.

 

Big deal--he's likely gone from the Giants after this coming season, as he's a free agent.

[jaysfan2014]

Brett Anderson going back to the A's on a 1-year deal. Bet Jackson gets re-signed next.

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/athletics/article/A-s-have-an-agreement-with-lefty-Brett-13608788.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

[Dick_Pole]

We're never going back to the days of pitchers like Roy Halladay, and that was apparent even before the opener became a thing.

 

If there are pitchers rotting away in the minor leagues because teams are waiting for them to develop into competent starters, I don't mind the idea of bringing them up to be used as an opener if that's how they can provide maximum value. Good on them for getting paid. And at the end of the day, if a pitcher proves themselves capable of being a Sale or Scherzer type workhorse, the opener will literally have zero impact on them as those types are always going to have spots. The opener is really just the death of the mediocre 4th/5th starter.

 

I don't think you quite understand my argument. It's not the impact on today that I am so concerned about. This is laying the groundwork for a paradigm shift in baseball that I'm not very optimistic about. Chris Sale types don't just magically appear at age 17, able to handle a 200 IP workload of MLB hitters with above average velocity and multiple off-speed pitches. Teams have to develop those pitchers. My argument is the way baseball is headed, teams will reduce or eliminate this development. And if the big payout for pitching is no longer there, that'll push baseball-minded athletes with arms to try right field or quarterback before pitching. A double whammy of talent drain on pitchers leading to less skilled players taking on reduced roles that are judged by a computer algorithm to maximize their otherwise inferior ability.

[Dick_Pole]

The tl;dr argument is there eventually isn't going to be any Halladays or Sales or Scherzers in baseball (or very, very few) and a whole lot of Sam Gaviglios bouncing from team to team and minors to majors.

[Abomination]

The tl;dr argument is there eventually isn't going to be any Halladays or Sales or Scherzers in baseball (or very, very few) and a whole lot of Sam Gaviglios bouncing from team to team and minors to majors.

 

The opener won't turn elite talent into journeymen. They may throw less innings, or perhaps similar innings but in shorter spurts, but there will continue to be elite pitchers that eat a lot of innings ... because they're better than anyone who could replace them.

[Spanky__99]

Kyler Murray news... Kyler Murray Announces He Is “Firmly And Fully Committing” To NFL Career

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/02/kyler-murray-heisman-qb-committing-nfl-football-athletics.html

[Olerud363]

I don't think you quite understand my argument. It's not the impact on today that I am so concerned about. This is laying the groundwork for a paradigm shift in baseball that I'm not very optimistic about. Chris Sale types don't just magically appear at age 17, able to handle a 200 IP workload of MLB hitters with above average velocity and multiple off-speed pitches. Teams have to develop those pitchers. My argument is the way baseball is headed, teams will reduce or eliminate this development. And if the big payout for pitching is no longer there, that'll push baseball-minded athletes with arms to try right field or quarterback before pitching. A double whammy of talent drain on pitchers leading to less skilled players taking on reduced roles that are judged by a computer algorithm to maximize their otherwise inferior ability.

 

Chris Sale, one of a kind, a man who learned how to do it right.

 

It's not like you can just have a guy pitch 100 innings for a year in College, 20 innings in the minors, be a reliever for a couple years, then pitch 220 innings a year.

 

That has has never happened and it never will. There will never be a Chris Sale come from that kind of background.

[TheHurl]

I don't think you quite understand my argument. It's not the impact on today that I am so concerned about. This is laying the groundwork for a paradigm shift in baseball that I'm not very optimistic about. Chris Sale types don't just magically appear at age 17, able to handle a 200 IP workload of MLB hitters with above average velocity and multiple off-speed pitches. Teams have to develop those pitchers. My argument is the way baseball is headed, teams will reduce or eliminate this development. And if the big payout for pitching is no longer there, that'll push baseball-minded athletes with arms to try right field or quarterback before pitching. A double whammy of talent drain on pitchers leading to less skilled players taking on reduced roles that are judged by a computer algorithm to maximize their otherwise inferior ability.

 

The shift could happen the other way where 150 inning pitchers get paid

[jaysblue]

Kyler Murray news... Kyler Murray Announces He Is “Firmly And Fully Committing” To NFL Career

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/02/kyler-murray-heisman-qb-committing-nfl-football-athletics.html

 

Good thing I didn't waste a draft pick on him in the League of Despair.

[G-Snarls]

Good thing I didn't waste a draft pick on him in the League of Despair.

 

Imagine how Billy Beane feels...

[Spanky__99]

Imagine how Billy Beane feels...

 

http://www.reactiongifs.com/lol/illK6U.gif

[Olerud363]

The shift could happen the other way where 150 inning pitchers get paid

 

It will be interesting to see how the 150 inning pitcher develops. Up to recently you had full time starters 32 starts 200 innings or so, and relievers 65 games 65 innings or so.

 

So now where does it go?? Do you start seeing these roles merge into just Pitcher?? Do conventional relievers start pitching more??