General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Slade]

[Spanky99]

 

Welp...

[Spanky99]

BNS on why the Jays won't be in on Cole...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/closer-look-blue-jays-expected-moderation-elite-pitching-market/

[BTS]

BNS on why the Jays won't be in on Cole...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/closer-look-blue-jays-expected-moderation-elite-pitching-market/

 

Well, we all expect the Jays to sign a couple of Tanner Roarks and a few cheap relievers and lose 90 games next year, so this article isn't really surprising. Too passive.

[Spanky99]

Well, we all expect the Jays to sign a couple of Tanner Roarks and a few cheap relievers and lose 90 games next year, so this article isn't really surprising. Too passive.

 

Yeah, it's all conjecture on BNS and Arden Zwelling, at least Shi Davidi has been more outspoken that the time is now to add considerable arms. Both, Shapiro and Atkins are carefully wording what they want to do, I hope they go aggressive, the upcoming FA pools are weak after this winter.

[BTS]

Yeah, it's all conjecture on BNS and Arden Zwelling, at least Shi Davidi has been more outspoken that the time is now to add considerable arms.

 

There isn't a single ace available next offseason (depending on what you think of Bauer and Paxton). The time is now to take a run at Cole or Strasburg. It's one thing if they don't want to come here, but the idea that we shouldn't sign an ace because contention is more likely in 2021 than 2020 would be defeatist, weak leadership.

[Spanky99]

There isn't a single ace available next offseason (depending on what you think of Bauer and Paxton). The time is now to take a run at Cole or Strasburg. It's one thing if they don't want to come here, but the idea that we shouldn't sign an ace because contention is more likely in 2021 than 2020 would be defeatist, weak leadership.

 

I agree, I added to my post above.

[glory]

I don't think this front office (under Shapiro) will ever sign an elite player in free agency. He's already publicly said he'd never do a player opt out (that's been included in a lot of elite player contracts), and I can't imagine he'd set the market by giving Cole the biggest contract for a P in the history of the sport. It's more likely Shatkins will want to develop stars internally and supplement with the Happ/Estrada types in free agency.

[DigitalRock]

There isn't a single ace available next offseason (depending on what you think of Bauer and Paxton). The time is now to take a run at Cole or Strasburg. It's one thing if they don't want to come here, but the idea that we shouldn't sign an ace because contention is more likely in 2021 than 2020 would be defeatist, weak leadership.

 

I agree , but faith in management with regards to free agency is low.

[Ex Player]

It's one thing if they don't want to come here

They most likely wont

[glory]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/stroman-says-hes-reuniting-former-blue-jays-head-trainer-nikki-huffman/

 

Stroman at it again.

[BTS]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/stroman-says-hes-reuniting-former-blue-jays-head-trainer-nikki-huffman/

 

Stroman at it again.

 

He is not a likeable person at all.

[Krylian]

There are very few people on this planet that I actively root for their failure. Stroman is one of those few.

[Ray]

Stroman deleted tweet: "Impossible for growth when you’re being limited and under-appreciated. Time to change the world! @NikkiG_13,”

 

Unbelievable how idiotic Stroman is. Yeah, Nikki Huffman being the head trainer of a baseball team, and being on the top of her field sure was limiting her.

[Spanky99]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/stroman-says-hes-reuniting-former-blue-jays-head-trainer-nikki-huffman/

 

Stroman at it again.

 

Geez... now this idiot is getting on my nerves. Good pitcher, but this self entitlement and slander towards the org and Yanks org is borderline, asinine.

[Spanky99]

Stroman's effort between the lines wearing our jersey > anything he says off the field.

 

I agree with that, the problem's his shyte never ends. He continues to leave himself as a target.

[Grant77]

Not going to miss Nikki Huffman's resting bitch face, but I really have no idea if she was good or bad. Hopefully the new trainer is successful, whoever that may be.

[Spanky99]

Not going to miss Nikki Huffman's resting bitch face, but I really have no idea if she was good or bad. Hopefully the new trainer is successful, whoever that may be.

 

[Dick_Pole]

I don't think this front office (under Shapiro) will ever sign an elite player in free agency. He's already publicly said he'd never do a player opt out (that's been included in a lot of elite player contracts), and I can't imagine he'd set the market by giving Cole the biggest contract for a P in the history of the sport. It's more likely Shatkins will want to develop stars internally and supplement with the Happ/Estrada types in free agency.

 

Have people been paying attention to the pitching staffs of the two teams in the World Series?

 

Even looking with Jays rose-coloured glasses there is 0% chance this team can develop a rotation approaching Nationals or Astros quality before 2023 using strictly internal options. The team must supplement using the free agent or trade market. The smart thing to do would be to try like hell this year, where supply of FA SP is greatest and accelerate the win cycle in a large market MLB city that that been proven to support this team at record levels in two different generations. If this FO can't recognize this blatantly obvious situation and move to rectify it then they need to get canned. They should have known the situation two years ago and be laying the groundwork for a plan of attack in December 2019 and I expect that this is what they have done.

 

Signing three Happs won't get the job done though that is better than signing no one at all. These next 2-3 months will seal the deal on my opinion of the FO. I refuse to play apologetics or have lowered expectations while the World Series is still going on.

[glory]

Have people been paying attention to the pitching staffs of the two teams in the World Series?

 

Even looking with Jays rose-coloured glasses there is 0% chance this team can develop a rotation approaching Nationals or Astros quality before 2023 using strictly internal options. The team must supplement using the free agent or trade market. The smart thing to do would be to try like hell this year, where supply of FA SP is greatest and accelerate the win cycle in a large market MLB city that that been proven to support this team at record levels in two different generations. If this FO can't recognize this blatantly obvious situation and move to rectify it then they need to get canned. They should have known the situation two years ago and be laying the groundwork for a plan of attack in December 2019 and I expect that this is what they have done.

 

Signing three Happs won't get the job done though that is better than signing no one at all. These next 2-3 months will seal the deal on my opinion of the FO. I refuse to play apologetics or have lowered expectations while the World Series is still going on.

 

Agreed. I think Cole should be the target this winter. He's a Boras guy. He's not taking less money to sign in his preferred destination. He will sign with the team that pays him the most. The Jays will likely have to give him more than anyone else by a significant margin (maybe an extra year or more AAV), but that's free agency. Cole being a Boras guy actually helps the Jays in a weird way. There's no excuse not to go after him. This is not a Kawhi situation where he wants to go to Cali and no where else. Boras guys go where the green is, and for once that actually plays right into the Jays' hands if they are willing to pony up. And considering they are a bad team playing in Canada, they will have to pony up. Any offer close to a better situation won't get it done. They'd need to have the strongest offer by a significant margin.

 

However, I just don't see this front office working like that. This seems like an org that wants to develop their stars internally and fill in the gaps with free agency, not the other way around.

[Dick_Pole]

 

However, I just don't see this front office working like that. This seems like an org that wants to develop their stars internally and fill in the gaps with free agency, not the other way around.

 

So we are mostly on the same page here except for this comment. I don't know what planet the FO would have to be from to sincerely expect the rotation to be filled with internal stars. Especially given the volatility of young pitchers. The only way they'd do this is if they found some kind of secret sauce like Houston did. It doesn't look like that's the case given the mediocre pitching prospects over the last two years performing as expected. The "gaps" in the rotation would be #1 and #2 if we reasonably expect Pearson to be #3, Kay to be #4-5 and the rest of the also rans filling out #5-7 and the BP by 2021. That's a pretty damn big gap to close. Might as well try to do that now.

 

As far as Cole, frontload the hell out of it. Offer him 2 years @ $100M and the other 5 years @ $25M if you have to. Or a similar idea to other pitchers. It's not like the Jays don't have the room for it.

[Krylian]

So we are mostly on the same page here except for this comment. I don't know what planet the FO would have to be from to sincerely expect the rotation to be filled with internal stars. Especially given the volatility of young pitchers. The only way they'd do this is if they found some kind of secret sauce like Houston did. It doesn't look like that's the case given the mediocre pitching prospects over the last two years performing as expected. The "gaps" in the rotation would be #1 and #2 if we reasonably expect Pearson to be #3, Kay to be #4-5 and the rest of the also rans filling out #5-7 and the BP by 2021. That's a pretty damn big gap to close. Might as well try to do that now.

 

As far as Cole, frontload the hell out of it. Offer him 2 years @ $100M and the other 5 years @ $25M if you have to. Or a similar idea to other pitchers. It's not like the Jays don't have the room for it.

 

I don't think it's ever been about not having room or the cash for it...they just don't seem to have the appetite to get into those $100M+ contracts. They did it once with Vernon, he didn't perform...AA was able to move him...but they haven't even really seriously sniffed around that kind of money since. Rogers just seems completely petrified about taking any sort of meaningful risk with respect to big contracts.

[Dick_Pole]

- Godfrey and Beeston are not Shapiro.

- "Massive" contracts other than A-Rod weren't really a thing at the time. Burnett's was a pretty big one.

- Marlins trade, Tulo, Martin etc. Though I get it those didn't have the seven years attached to them.

[Jimcanuck]

Have people been paying attention to the pitching staffs of the two teams in the World Series?

 

Even looking with Jays rose-coloured glasses there is 0% chance this team can develop a rotation approaching Nationals or Astros quality before 2023 using strictly internal options. The team must supplement using the free agent or trade market. The smart thing to do would be to try like hell this year, where supply of FA SP is greatest and accelerate the win cycle in a large market MLB city that that been proven to support this team at record levels in two different generations. If this FO can't recognize this blatantly obvious situation and move to rectify it then they need to get canned. They should have known the situation two years ago and be laying the groundwork for a plan of attack in December 2019 and I expect that this is what they have done.

 

Signing three Happs won't get the job done though that is better than signing no one at all. These next 2-3 months will seal the deal on my opinion of the FO. I refuse to play apologetics or have lowered expectations while the World Series is still going on.

 

No one has suggested building a contender pitching staff using internal options only.

[TheHurl]

For the past 5 years everyone has said you can't win without a lights out pen. Now the Nats have the worst pen in the playoffs and everyone is saying you have to have 3 lights out starters. Well that's a luxury the Jays would have to luck into. This front office is going to look at what it will take to make the Jays a playoff contender which is getting to that 40 WAR range as a team. Regardless of how they do it. They aren't going to say "you have to have this pitching staff cause that's how the Nats got there).

 

As for Cole he's the easiest way to add 6 wins (when healthy). Now think of the other teams with payroll flexibility who become a lot closer to top contenders;

 

 

Padres - Even after the Machado contract they are still under $100M this year. Signing Cole would allow them to move some of those hard throwing prospects to the pen. An end of the year rotation of Cole, Paddock and Gore would leave them playoff ready this year and if even 2 of their other pitching prospects progress to be legit starters it sets the Padres up for years. I'm not a fan of Preller and I think if he got a Cole he'd sell it all off for a run, but as far as depth assets they have the most.

 

Braves - Similar to the Padres in which they have a low payroll compared to their position, yet the pitching prospects probably aren't ready to step into a playoff contender. Cole would stabilize their rotation and the spects working out again makes them a 3 year contender. AA likely is still more of a trade for his pitching guy but still I can see them at least matching anything the Jays do.

 

Rays - 2nd lowest payroll in baseball, a $25M increase in TV money and no one due a big raise for at least 2 years (Snell is getting $6M more next year with his extension). Could give him $35M and barely be over their highest payroll ever. Astros and them are the only real contenders in a no tax state. They have a 40 man crunch and it would have to be paired with a 3 for 1 type trade. I don't believe they will do this much off the M.O. but it would be the perfect year to do it.

 

White Sox - Most similar to the Jays as the majority of the their prospects are really close. Personally I'm not as big a fan as most on what they are building, but the division still looks to be weak for next 5 years so they have it easier.

 

Twins - What better way to replace Pineda, Odorizzi and Gibson. They have more starting FA's to replace than anyone else so I truly don't see them being in play.

 

Giants - Who has more influence than Boras...the wife.

 

Reds - No chance it happens, but how fun would it be to have him and Bauer as teammates again.

 

This doesn't include the 5 favourites to sign him with the Astros, Angels, Dodgers, Yankees and Rangers.

 

In short I could just say that there are loads of teams with flexibility which could match anything the Jays offer. I really believe they have to go way above everyone else to get a response from him. I think they make a fair offer for PR purposes and let it go and take several steps down.

[glory]

Yeah if he wants something completely unreasonable from the Jays then you make a fair offer and move on. Ultimately this is all for nothing. Shatkins doesn’t operate like this and expecting Rogers to approve a $200-300m commitment is unrealistic.

[TheHurl]

Yeah if he wants something completely unreasonable from the Jays then you make a fair offer and move on. Ultimately this is all for nothing. Shatkins doesn’t operate like this and expecting Rogers to approve a $200-300m commitment is unrealistic.

 

I don't agree with that. They have tied payroll to projected revenue in the past. If Shapiro makes a case based on a 5 year projection they would approve IMO

[Bobthe4th]

For the past 5 years everyone has said you can't win without a lights out pen. Now the Nats have the worst pen in the playoffs and everyone is saying you have to have 3 lights out starters. Well that's a luxury the Jays would have to luck into. This front office is going to look at what it will take to make the Jays a playoff contender which is getting to that 40 WAR range as a team. Regardless of how they do it. They aren't going to say "you have to have this pitching staff cause that's how the Nats got there).

 

As for Cole he's the easiest way to add 6 wins (when healthy). Now think of the other teams with payroll flexibility who become a lot closer to top contenders;

 

Rays

 

hahahaha your analysis should have said that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are a more realistic destination

[Krylian]

- Godfrey and Beeston are not Shapiro.

- "Massive" contracts other than A-Rod weren't really a thing at the time. Burnett's was a pretty big one.

- Marlins trade, Tulo, Martin etc. Though I get it those didn't have the seven years attached to them.

 

But you're making it sound like Shapiro has a history of going big. Has he ever gone big? Maybe I'm forgetting something, but he was never really in a position to do that in Cleveland...so why do we just assume that he'll do it in Toronto? Fans questioning Rogers commitment and willingness to spend big isn't a new thing. Why are we just assuming that it's gonna happen with Shapiro. Until it actually happens, I'm going to remain skeptical. Hopefully we see some significant talent added when the time is right, but I'm not going to just assume that it's gonna happen.

[RobinThicc]

Theres no way Rogers is ponying up that money.

 

They're already reluctant to pay for renovations to that dump they play in.