General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Krylian]

It's crazy that people keep talking themselves into getting even mildly excited about how certain big signings / trades make sense for Toronto.

 

I guess if the Padres can sign Manny Machado, anything can happen, but...

 

Agreed. Pretty sure we've all been Jays fans long enough to know what won't happen (ie. High end FAs won't sign here).

[wamco]

Agreed. Pretty sure we've all been Jays fans long enough to know what won't happen (ie. High end FAs won't sign here).

 

 

More like we haven’t offered competitive contracts to high end FA

[saskjayfan]

Sign Wheeler. 5 years $80M

 

Would you rather have Wheeler, SWR + Kay....or Marcus Stroman?

 

That's complete conjecture. What makes you think Wheeler is going to sign here for those dollars? If we're playing this game I'd rather have Wheeler and Stroman.

[Krylian]

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/opinion/2019/08/08/jays-boss-mark-shapiro-shows-numbers-dont-lie-if-you-pick-them-carefully-enough.html

 

 

On paper, the Jays have more payroll flexibility than any team in the league but there’s no guarantee that Rogers intends to spend that money. Shapiro was pressed multiple times to provide specifics on how much the team is willing to spend this winter and the answer wasn’t inspiring.

“The only directive from ownership is to run a business that doesn’t lose money, which means obviously payroll’s going to reflect revenue and revenues are down because attendance is down,” Shapiro said. “Part of the plan from day one, and part of the understanding, has been that there will be a time that we need to outspend, outpace revenue with spending on players.”

Hmm, where have we heard that before? Oh right, the language might be different, but the messaging is the same as what used to be preached by former president Paul Beeston. The support from ownership is there, he claimed. When the team starts winning, and fans start showing up, Rogers will respond by committing money to ensure sustained success.

[The Cats Ass]

That's complete conjecture. What makes you think Wheeler is going to sign here for those dollars? If we're playing this game I'd rather have Wheeler and Stroman.

 

Can't afford both Wheeler and Stroman. You only get one. Rest of the money is planned for other spending.

 

So would you go with Wheeler + SWR + Kay or would you have rather kept Stroman?

[saskjayfan]

Can't afford both Wheeler and Stroman. You only get one. Rest of the money is planned for other spending.

 

So would you go with Wheeler + SWR + Kay or would you have rather kept Stroman?

 

Ok...there's no way Wheeler is signing here for 5 for 80. So you're down to Stroman for 5 for 80 or Kay + SWR.

 

How is it possible we can't afford both? We have 30 mil committed in salary next year, 18 mil in 2021 and 15 mil in 2022. We spent north of 150 when we made the playoffs. Those 5 year deals would be done before any extensions for the kids would kick in.

 

We all need to interpret what the word "opportunistic" means. The free agency period will be important over the next few years.

[Spanky99]

7/210. Your turn

 

Absolutely, question is would he? I'd hope so.

[wamco]

I meant this:

 

offseason.

 

What do the following so fetch in free agency?

-Bumgarner

- Hamels

-odorizzi

-Roark

-ryu

-Miley

-wheeler

-quintana

-Porcello

[Spanky99]

Interesting comments by Shapiro. It actually leads me to believe that they might end up making a couple big moves this offseason:

 

That's what I like to see, saw it this morning on SN, also.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-hints-at-next-steps-for-blue-jays-on-and-off-the-field/

 

Mark Shapiro hints at next steps for Blue Jays on and off the field

Mark Shapiro addresses the media to talk about the Toronto Blue Jays’ young core, moves made at the trade deadline, and the importance of upcoming free agency.

 

 

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

August 8, 2019, 8:54 PM

 

TORONTO – Some early hints at the Blue Jays’ off-season planning emerged Thursday and though priorities could clearly change with nearly one-third of the regular season remaining, it’s already apparent that the club will be targeting pitching.

 

More specifically, the Blue Jays expect to spend ‘the bulk’ of their resources on starting pitching this off-season, according to president and CEO Mark Shapiro. Some bullpen pieces will probably join the Blue Jays, too.

 

As a promising core of position players establishes itself in the majors, the Blue Jays feel ‘a sense of urgency to win,’ Shapiro said. In 2020, the club hopes that core progresses from competing to winning.

 

“We will certainly have to and will supplement that internal group of players, look to do it as soon as this off-season,” he said. “But it’s not a great off-season for free-agent talent.”

 

With all kinds of payroll flexibility available and a clear need for pitching, the Blue Jays will surely be active in free agency this winter. But Shapiro described the front office approach as ‘opportunistic,’ suggesting modest deals are more likely than a pursuit of, say, Gerrit Cole.

 

Entering Thursday’s series against the Yankees, the Blue Jays were on pace to lose 97 games. At this point, the front office might decide it’s still too early to spend at the top of the free agent market.

 

“All wins aren’t created equal, right?” Shapiro said. “So a player who’s a three-win player who takes you from 82 to 85 wins probably doesn’t move that needle. But if you’re at 87 wins and it takes you from 87 to 90, does that make sense? So it’s more like when we’re at that point, when you can get the player who helps take you from a good team to a team that’s a potential championship team, we need to go out and get that player, and that (ownership) support will be there.”

 

Of course, we’re months away from any sort of free agent activity, and the results of the next seven weeks will shape the Blue Jays’ plans to some extent. Until then, here are some more observations from Shapiro’s hour-long discussion with Toronto-based writers…

 

On delays in Dunedin:

 

Construction at the Blue Jays’ Dunedin, Fla. site won’t be fully completed for spring 2020, as initially anticipated. While renovations at Dunedin Stadium are on track, it’ll take longer to finish the multi-purpose building that will eventually serve as the team’s clubhouse, training and development centre.

 

“We would have liked to think we would have been in that building, in the player development complex, but a 100,000 square foot training centre, which will be I think the best in all of major-league baseball is going to take a little bit longer to finish,” Shapiro said.

 

Once completed, Dunedin Stadium will have new dugouts, a wider selection of concessions and a boardwalk that encircles the entire field.

 

On the high performance department:

 

Nearly four seasons after the Blue Jays first implemented their high performance department, Shapiro’s pleased with the club’s venture into sports science. The opportunities there are ‘endless,’ he said, with a ‘huge amount of upside.’

 

There is one thing Shapiro would have done differently, however. When the Blue Jays introduced the department before the 2016 season, they were early adopters relative to much of major-league baseball. As such, the announcement drew plenty of attention, including criticism from outside and inside the organization.

 

“I think probably the biggest mistake we made was calling that the high performance department,” Shapiro said.

 

Even if the resources offered within the department help players eat, sleep, prepare and feel better, the ‘high performance’ label may have created unnecessary resistance. Regardless of what you call it, the Blue Jays believe their sports science division helps their players stay on the field and play at the peak of their abilities.

 

And for those wondering, Shapiro said high performance does not determine who sits and who plays.

 

“Charlie (Montoyo) does that 100 per cent,” Shapiro said. “It’s the manager. One hundred per cent. Ross (Atkins) doesn’t make out the lineup, HP doesn’t make out the lineup, Charlie makes out the lineup.”

 

On the potential of change at Rogers Centre:

 

On many occasions during his tenure as club president, Shapiro has spoken about the need for large-scale changes at baseball’s seventh-oldest stadium. Those discussions are still underway, but are ‘largely driven’ by Rogers Communications Inc., which owns the team. For now, the Blue Jays will continue maintaining the building and striving for smaller-scale improvements.

 

“I feel like we’re getting closer to (larger changes), but we’re not quite there yet,” Shapiro said. “In the meantime, as an operator of the team, my job is to make sure that this stadium continues to both be safe and have the best infrastructure and we continue to improve fan-facing amenities as well.”

 

On Ross Atkins’ work as general manager:

 

“I never look at it as one person, it’s Ross, it’s Joe (Sheehan), it’s Mike (Murov), it’s Gil (Kim), it’s Ben (Cherington), it’s Angus (Mugford). It’s a large group of people (and) they’ve done a good job both of working and building off of the great things that were already in place, and supplementing what we needed in talent and systems. They’ve positioned the team extremely well, regardless of what happens, for the future.”

 

On Charlie Montoyo’s work as manager:

 

“I look at Charlie and the staff collectively. It’s rare you see the level of teaching, developing, the positive energy, the positive attitude that’s happened this year throughout the ups and downs. Charlie is going to continue to grow, as I hope any professional would, as I hope I do, in his role and get better and better. Already he’s shown tremendous signs and he’s been incredibly positive and he’s done a very good job.”

 

On watching Nate Pearson’s workload:

 

“It’s about ensuring he has a foundation to not just be exciting the day he gets here, but be able to contribute at a major-league level, which means hopefully pitching 175-200 innings. Innings jumps are where the biggest danger and red flags happen when guys get hurt. There’s no science to the number of pitches and pitch counts. Jumps in innings, over time, pretty clearly demonstrate major injury risk. We’ve been careful, we’ve had a plan all year of how to stagger the amount of innings he makes in his starts and we’ll have to think about that moving forward with his transition to the major-league level as well.”

[BigCecil]

It’s annoying “Bo will be way better than Vladdy” stuff. Enjoy it for what it is a handful of games in. It’s great. But it’s a mirage. What did Rowdy do last year? I think Bo is going to be very solid long term offensively and I love what I see but we just need all these kids to make slow steady progress on both O and D. Celebrate the successes without too much hype.

[saskjayfan]

It’s annoying “Bo will be way better than Vladdy” stuff. Enjoy it for what it is a handful of games in. It’s great. But it’s a mirage. What did Rowdy do last year? I think Bo is going to be very solid long term offensively and I love what I see but we just need all these kids to make slow steady progress on both O and D. Celebrate the successes without too much hype.

 

Vlad's bat is going to be there no doubt. I wouldn't be putting big money that Bo's bat will be better than Vlad next year, but I think it's time for us to look at transitioning Vlad to first. Let's go out and sign Rendon and move Vlad to first! Okay, I know that's never going to happen, but Vlad isn't going to cut it at third.

[The Cats Ass]

Ok...there's no way Wheeler is signing here for 5 for 80. So you're down to Stroman for 5 for 80 or Kay + SWR.

 

How is it possible we can't afford both? We have 30 mil committed in salary next year, 18 mil in 2021 and 15 mil in 2022. We spent north of 150 when we made the playoffs. Those 5 year deals would be done before any extensions for the kids would kick in.

 

We all need to interpret what the word "opportunistic" means. The free agency period will be important over the next few years.

 

You're drunker then Spanky at 4am on a Saturday night if you think Stroman was going to sign here for 5 for 80. Too high on himself.

 

So since Stroman left we light that money on fire? Because that's what you're saying. Stroman was asking for free agent money, probably more. The team still gets to spend that money. So maybe it's not Wheeler, but that money will go to someone. Would it make to feel better if there's a clause in the contract for whoever they sign that they need to change their name to Stroman or atleast wear that name on their jersey?

[Barkerfan23]

Barker has nicknamed Derek Fisher "5 Tool"

[Spanky99]

You're drunker then Spanky at 4am on a Saturday night if you think Stroman was going to sign here for 5 for 80. Too high on himself.

 

So since Stroman left we light that money on fire? Because that's what you're saying. Stroman was asking for free agent money, probably more. The team still gets to spend that money. So maybe it's not Wheeler, but that money will go to someone. Would it make to feel better if there's a clause in the contract for whoever they sign that they need to change their name to Stroman or atleast wear that name on their jersey?

 

Really man?

[Ziggyy108]

Barker has nicknamed Derek Fisher "5 Tool"

 

I never watch pre games or any of the shows on sports net. Curious was what his opinion on about the trade was before he actually saw him play.

[flafson]

I never watch pre games or any of the shows on sports net. Curious was what his opinion on about the trade was before he actually saw him play.

 

They probably got a script from Rogers, “protect the front office at all costs!”

[Ziggyy108]

Can we waive or release Smoak and let him go pick a contender to play for the rest of the season. Maybe the Yankees.

 

Bring Tellez back. See if he has really made any changes. Crushing AAA right now. Also more AB's potentially for Fisher, Teoscar, and Alford the rest of the way.

[Ziggyy108]

If Gurriel needs a 10 day IL stint, I hope we bring up Alford over McKinney as well

[SaskJaysFan_2]

Is it me or does Fisher seem a little shaky on defense?

[SaskJaysFan_2]

If Gurriel needs a 10 day IL stint, I hope we bring up Alford over McKinney as well

 

Definitely. He needs to play the rest of the season if possible to see what we have there. I don't know how that would work with the current roster, but we need to either cut bait or make him a FT Jay.

[saskjayfan]

You're drunker then Spanky at 4am on a Saturday night if you think Stroman was going to sign here for 5 for 80. Too high on himself.

 

So since Stroman left we light that money on fire? Because that's what you're saying. Stroman was asking for free agent money, probably more. The team still gets to spend that money. So maybe it's not Wheeler, but that money will go to someone. Would it make to feel better if there's a clause in the contract for whoever they sign that they need to change their name to Stroman or atleast wear that name on their jersey?

 

You have no idea what Stroman would have signed for. All you comments again are pure speculation with zero basis in facts. If you think Wheeler is going to leave mets and sign here for 5 for 80 I think you're drunk as a skunk too.

 

I've already said, if we land some big fish in free agency I will capitulate and turn a lot more optimistic. My whole stance on extending stro was that I thought he would actually sign here at a reasonable amount. You are convinced he wanted 30 mil a season.

 

The clause in the contract for people signing here isn't going to be they'll change their name to Stroman. It's going to be pay me 15% more on an AAV basis than anyone else and give me an extra year. We'll see what management is willing to do.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

Can we waive or release Smoak and let him go pick a contender to play for the rest of the season. Maybe the Yankees.

 

Bring Tellez back. See if he has really made any changes. Crushing AAA right now. Also more AB's potentially for Fisher, Teoscar, and Alford the rest of the way.

 

I was thinking this exact same thing. I think it would be a class move. If handled correctly. I love Smoak as a player, but I think we can go for a DH/1B better than he and Tellez pretty easily at little cost for 2020+. CJ Cron was damn near free. Maybe take on a bad contract from some other team. Someone like Cabrera maybe? This also may be a horrible idea, but why not take on Chris Davis...and 1-2 of the better Orioles prospects for something like say a Tellez in the off season. High risk, high reward. The Orioles could pay down $10M/year, we get Davis who may bounce back with a new environment, new coaching etc., has okay defense, and 1-2 prospects for 1-2 of our B or C prospects that don't figure into the plans. Like Tellez and [fill in blank].

[SaskJaysFan_2]

You have no idea what Stroman would have signed for. All you comments again are pure speculation with zero basis in facts. If you think Wheeler is going to leave mets and sign here for 5 for 80 I think you're drunk as a skunk too.

 

I've already said, if we land some big fish in free agency I will capitulate and turn a lot more optimistic. My whole stance on extending stro was that I thought he would actually sign here at a reasonable amount. You are convinced he wanted 30 mil a season.

 

The clause in the contract for people signing here isn't going to be they'll change their name to Stroman. It's going to be pay me 15% more on an AAV basis than anyone else and give me an extra year. We'll see what management is willing to do.

 

 

I think the young, exciting Jays are catching everyone's attention and the team may have an easier time attracting top notch free agent pitchers than usual.

[Barkerfan23]

I never watch pre games or any of the shows on sports net. Curious was what his opinion on about the trade was before he actually saw him play.

 

Trade was criticised heavily by Barker and Blair.

[BTS]

You have no idea what Stroman would have signed for. All you comments again are pure speculation with zero basis in facts. If you think Wheeler is going to leave mets and sign here for 5 for 80 I think you're drunk as a skunk too.

 

I've already said, if we land some big fish in free agency I will capitulate and turn a lot more optimistic. My whole stance on extending stro was that I thought he would actually sign here at a reasonable amount. You are convinced he wanted 30 mil a season.

 

The clause in the contract for people signing here isn't going to be they'll change their name to Stroman. It's going to be pay me 15% more on an AAV basis than anyone else and give me an extra year. We'll see what management is willing to do.

 

This is likely ********. Toronto is a world class city and there's no reason to believe that players wouldn't come here except in the case of a massive premium being paid. We haven't signed major free agents because we haven't tried to sign major free agents. It might not happen this offseason, coming off a 90-100 loss year, but there's no reason to think that a competitive Toronto team would be considered an undesirable destination by free agents.

[saskjayfan]

I was thinking this exact same thing. I think it would be a class move. If handled correctly. I love Smoak as a player, but I think we can go for a DH/1B better than he and Tellez pretty easily at little cost for 2020+. CJ Cron was damn near free. Maybe take on a bad contract from some other team. Someone like Cabrera maybe? This also may be a horrible idea, but why not take on Chris Davis...and 1-2 of the better Orioles prospects for something like say a Tellez in the off season. High risk, high reward. The Orioles could pay down $10M/year, we get Davis who may bounce back with a new environment, new coaching etc., has okay defense, and 1-2 prospects for 1-2 of our B or C prospects that don't figure into the plans. Like Tellez and [fill in blank].

 

Let's not give up on Big Rowdy just yet. He's only had 97 plate appearances at AAA, but he's taken a few more walks and his 91% better than league average over that span. He probably deserves a few more at bats in the big league before we throw in the towel.

[The Cats Ass]

Really man?

 

Sorry Spank. I say it with love. You know I'm always in the same condition.

[saskjayfan]

This is likely ********. Toronto is a world class city and there's no reason to believe that players wouldn't come here except in the case of a massive premium being paid. We haven't signed major free agents because we haven't tried to sign major free agents. It might not happen this offseason, coming off a 90-100 loss year, there's no reason to think that a competitive Toronto team would be considered an undesirable destination by free agents.

 

Toronto has always been considered an undesirable place to sign by free agents, especially with american born players. We might not be bottom of the barrel and money certainly does talk, but we're going to have to pay a premium if the same money is on the table and the player is choosing between LA, the Yankees, the Sox, the Cubs and us.

 

I'm not saying our situation is different than other smaller market and mid-level market clubs. It's the inherent advantage that the big clubs have. They have more money and players want to play there. It might not be 15%, but you're delusional to think that we won't have to pay a premium like many other clubs would have to pay to get top free agents. The Padres offered Manny and they offered the most money. I'm not saying it's an impossible challenge, but it's not an easy task either. We should have a war chest of funds available. Let's see what they do.

 

Over the last 20 years outside of the guys who came through our organization we have signed Martin, BJ Ryan and Burnett. If I go back a little further we signed Roger Clemens in 1996. I mean we did get Clemens so I'm not saying it's impossible. The last time we got a top tier free agent was 23 years ago.

Edited August 9, 2019 by saskjayfan

[Bobthe4th]

This is likely ********. Toronto is a world class city and there's no reason to believe that players wouldn't come here except in the case of a massive premium being paid. We haven't signed major free agents because we haven't tried to sign major free agents. It might not happen this offseason, coming off a 90-100 loss year, but there's no reason to think that a competitive Toronto team would be considered an undesirable destination by free agents.

 

Canada is a factor for many American players whether you like it or not. Without more money or a winning team (which we don't have yet) most are going to pick an American team.

[Bobthe4th]

I was thinking this exact same thing. I think it would be a class move. If handled correctly. I love Smoak as a player, but I think we can go for a DH/1B better than he and Tellez pretty easily at little cost for 2020+. CJ Cron was damn near free. Maybe take on a bad contract from some other team. Someone like Cabrera maybe? This also may be a horrible idea, but why not take on Chris Davis...and 1-2 of the better Orioles prospects for something like say a Tellez in the off season. High risk, high reward. The Orioles could pay down $10M/year, we get Davis who may bounce back with a new environment, new coaching etc., has okay defense, and 1-2 prospects for 1-2 of our B or C prospects that don't figure into the plans. Like Tellez and [fill in blank].

 

I get what you're saying but the day we sign Chris Davis is the day the fans descend on the Rogers Centre and burn it to the ground.