Lazarito

[Santos]

No one other than the Braves are identified as being in on him although USA TODAY says 9 teams are pursuing him. Could someone more well versed in the international signing area breakdown where the Jays stand pool money wise? Would making a play on Lazarito be a shrewd move for a new management team looking to rebuild the farm?

[Laika]

Toronto went over their budget for Vlad Jr. They are already locked out of any big names on next year's market, which starts July 2nd. If they sign Lazarito too then they would be more than 15% over, which means they wouldn't be allowed to sign anyone for more than $300k for the next TWO international market periods.

 

I think signing him makes sense, if they have the money. The extra year of sitting out of the international market shouldn't be a categorical deterrence. If you think he's a better prospect than Vlad Jr., well you've already shown that Vlad is worth sitting out a year so Lazarito must be worth sitting out one more.

 

They probably won't compete for him financially though. CDN dollar and cheap ass corporate shill Shapiro and all that.

 

Dodgers have to be the odds on favourite. They have infinite money and are already about $100M over the limit.

[Krylian]

Must be great being a Dodgers fan.

 

Blank cheques for everyone.

[Santos]

This was my understanding so thanks for clarifying. Sucks to sit out two years in a row but if Lazarito is as good as he's made out to be he could be worth it.

 

Also if Jays lose Bautista and EE to free agency that would give the Jays three first round picks in 2017. I've read Ben Badler labeling Vlad JR and Lazarito as high first round selections if draft eligible so if signed in a hypothetical world that could give the Jays 7 first round talents from 2015-2017.

 

Could be a quick way to rebuild the farm without stripping down the roster (minus losing Edwin and Jose of course )

[KingKat]

Must be great being a Dodgers fan.

 

Blank cheques for everyone.

 

Dodgers are the new Yankees.

[Krylian]

Dodger are the new Yankees.

 

I think they're even worse.

[Sammy225]

Dodgers are the new Yankees.

 

Ya but they are not even any good at it. They haven't even come close to winning a championship.

[xposbrad]

It would be nice to dream about signing a high profile/upside young player like Laz but unfortunately I think Rogers doesn't want to spend the money.

[KingKat]

It would be nice to dream about signing a high profile/upside young player like Laz but unfortunately I think Rogers doesn't want to spend the money.

 

Well they do want to rebuild the farm. I'm more a question of whether this is the most efficient way. One big ticket or potentially lots of small ones.

[Abomination]

Well they do want to rebuild the farm. I'm more a question of whether this is the most efficient way. One big ticket or potentially lots of small ones.

 

A big ticket is fine as long as you're selecting one you know will work out.

[KingKat]

one you know will work out.

 

There's no such thing.

[xposbrad]

A big ticket is fine as long as you're selecting one you know will work out.

 

Well, that's one of the reason the team pays scouts. But at some point, if you don't take risk you will get no reward. At the end of the day, it comes down to dollars.

[Santos]

The reports on Lazarito are pretty impressive but the argument of whether to go all in on one international prospect or a bunch of smaller ones is fair. Since the Jays are already sitting out next year the real question is one big fish better than a bunch of smaller ones in 2017?

 

Considering it's fair to assume that the Jays could be netting some comp picks down the road I'd prefer to see them go all in....what's the price tag on Lazarito anyways? Haven't read lot on his projected contract

[Stangstag]

Dodgers are the new Yankees.

 

No complaints from me.

[Maahfaace]

Toronto went over their budget for Vlad Jr. They are already locked out of any big names on next year's market, which starts July 2nd. If they sign Lazarito too then they would be more than 15% over, which means they wouldn't be allowed to sign anyone for more than $300k for the next TWO international market periods.

 

I think signing him makes sense, if they have the money. The extra year of sitting out of the international market shouldn't be a categorical deterrence. If you think he's a better prospect than Vlad Jr., well you've already shown that Vlad is worth sitting out a year so Lazarito must be worth sitting out one more.

 

They probably won't compete for him financially though. CDN dollar and cheap ass corporate shill Shapiro and all that.

 

Dodgers have to be the odds on favourite. They have infinite money and are already about $100M over the limit.

 

Must be great being a Dodgers fan.

 

Blank cheques for everyone.

 

I really can't wait for an international draft, this signing s*** is so ass backwards.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Maahfaace

[G-Snarls]

No complaints from me.

 

Good point ..I'm pretty happy that the Yankees no longer seem to be the Yankees. They've actually spent fairly carefully recently.

[Grant77]

Toronto went over their budget for Vlad Jr. They are already locked out of any big names on next year's market, which starts July 2nd. If they sign Lazarito too then they would be more than 15% over, which means they wouldn't be allowed to sign anyone for more than $300k for the next TWO international market periods.

 

I think signing him makes sense, if they have the money. The extra year of sitting out of the international market shouldn't be a categorical deterrence. If you think he's a better prospect than Vlad Jr., well you've already shown that Vlad is worth sitting out a year so Lazarito must be worth sitting out one more.

 

They probably won't compete for him financially though. CDN dollar and cheap ass corporate shill Shapiro and all that.

 

Dodgers have to be the odds on favourite. They have infinite money and are already about $100M over the limit.

 

There's been talk that a new international draft would override any restrictions, making the 2 years meaningless.

[Laika]

There's been talk that a new international draft would override any restrictions, making the 2 years meaningless.

 

Yeah there's probably a decent chance it happens. I mean, the system they made is obviously broken.

 

Who knows what they'll come up with though. Could always just tweak the system in some way and keep the signing restrictions.

 

They could do a kind of merged draft / free agency where teams have a set budget that they can't go over, players have to register before July 2, but players are free to pick their teams.

[FrozenRopes]

When will MLB just move to an international draft? Every year is just garbage and chaos. Get it right already.

[vilifyingforce]

I hope MLB treads carefully; they could see a huge downturn in participation and interest in many Central American countries if the money dries up.

[Laika]

I hope MLB treads carefully; they could see a huge downturn in participation and interest in many Central American countries if the money dries up.

 

I don't think an international draft would have that effect. If you look at the domestic draft, bonuses range from ~$8M at pick#1 to ~$1M at pick #60.

 

I think the international talents who sign in the $300k - $6M range would still sign for the same amounts, roughly. So no change for the vast majority of players.

 

What you would see is the really elite talents get capped at something like the #1 pick in the domestic draft. So a few of the star prospects that pop up each year, like Moncada, Yasiel Sierra, or Lazarito, wouldn't get any of thee goofy $30M, $16M deals.

 

It would be weird to see MLB implement a draft where the $$$ was drastically different than the domestic one

[Maahfaace]

I don't think an international draft would have that effect. If you look at the domestic draft, bonuses range from ~$8M at pick#1 to ~$1M at pick #60.

 

I think the international talents who sign in the $300k - $6M range would still sign for the same amounts, roughly. So no change for the vast majority of players.

 

What you would see is the really elite talents get capped at something like the #1 pick in the domestic draft. So a few of the star prospects that pop up each year, like Moncada, Yasiel Sierra, or Lazarito, wouldn't get any of thee goofy $30M, $16M deals.

 

It would be weird to see MLB implement a draft where the $$$ was drastically different than the domestic one

 

IMO it should just be one draft, no need to separate them.

[Dick_Pole]

Reading this thread is depressing. I miss the gold old days when the Blue Jays picked up Fernandez and Delgado for next to nothing, along with more than a dozen other useful contributors to the team during the 80's and 90's. Epy Guerrero belongs on the Jays' wall of fame or whatever they call it.

 

Now every international prospect that looks like he might have a shot at the MLB gets his own thread with a corresponding debate if the Jays will have the money to participate.

 

EDIT: Actually looking at that list, not quite a dozen useful players. But considering the cost at the time still a bargain.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Dick_Pole

[Dick_Pole]

For the youngsters who don't know him:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epy_Guerrero

 

Check out the list of players he signed for the Jays.

[Angrioter]

For the youngsters who don't know him:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epy_Guerrero

 

Check out the list of players he signed for the Jays.

 

Epy was the best... I loved that man

[Grant77]

I don't think an international draft would have that effect. If you look at the domestic draft, bonuses range from ~$8M at pick#1 to ~$1M at pick #60.

 

I think the international talents who sign in the $300k - $6M range would still sign for the same amounts, roughly. So no change for the vast majority of players.

 

What you would see is the really elite talents get capped at something like the #1 pick in the domestic draft. So a few of the star prospects that pop up each year, like Moncada, Yasiel Sierra, or Lazarito, wouldn't get any of thee goofy $30M, $16M deals.

 

It would be weird to see MLB implement a draft where the $$$ was drastically different than the domestic one

 

I don't know enough to make any conclusions, but look at what happened to baseball in Puerto Rico immediately after they changed systems. It could be a coincidence, but I'm not sure.

[The Cats Ass]

I don't know enough to make any conclusions, but look at what happened to baseball in Puerto Rico immediately after they changed systems. It could be a coincidence, but I'm not sure.

 

What happened?

[Grant77]

What happened?

 

There was a massive decline in the number of players from Puerto Rico immediately following their inclusion in the Rule IV draft.

[Grant77]

SAN JUAN, P.R. — This used to be the climax of baseball’s peak season in Puerto Rico. The storied winter league lured many of Major League Baseball’s biggest Puerto Rican stars back to the island — from Roberto Clemente and Orlando Cepeda to Roberto Alomar and Bernie Williams — and they would regularly play before tens of thousands of fans during what was otherwise their off-season.

 

But that scene no longer exists. Four years after being forced to cancel an entire season, the league has only four teams. And for the first time in its history, which dates to 1938, the Puerto Rican Baseball League does not have a team based in San Juan, the capital.

 

The league’s struggles are merely the most vivid manifestation of a more profound, and surprising, phenomenon playing out here: the decline of baseball in a place where it was long considered the primary pastime, if not a religion. After decades of populating major league rosters with All-Stars at every position, Puerto Rico had only 20 players on Major League Baseball rosters on opening day last season. Only two made the All-Star team. (By contrast, the 1997 All-Star Game included eight Puerto Ricans.)

 

Baseball's stature has diminished in Puerto Rico and most agree on the culprit: the decision by Major League Baseball, in 1990, to include Puerto Rico, a commonwealth of the United States, in its First-Year Player Draft. Credit Dennis Rivera for The New York Times

“We can’t even compete in the Pan American Games anymore,” said the major leaguer Alex Cora, referring to Puerto Rico’s seventh-place finish in the eight-team tournament in October.

 

No one here disputes the diminished stature of baseball in Puerto Rico, and most agree on the culprit: Major League Baseball’s decision, in 1990, to include Puerto Rico, a commonwealth of the United States, in its first-year player draft. This means Puerto Rican players must wait until they have completed high school to sign a professional contract, and then they are going up against players from the United States and Canada in the draft.

 

Perhaps more important, major league teams have less incentive to cultivate talent in Puerto Rico because those players may end up with another team through the draft.

 

Catcher Ivan Rodriguez, 40, currently a free agent and playing for one of the Puerto Rican winter league’s four teams, is the last active Puerto Rican major leaguer to avoid the draft. Rodriguez, a likely Hall of Famer, signed with the Texas Rangers in 1988 at age 16.

 

“What is the difference between 1980 and 2011? The draft,” David Bernier, Puerto Rico’s former secretary of sport and recreation, said in an interview in his office here. “Nothing has changed but the draft. Everything else is the same.”

 

Caribbean nations like Venezuela and the Dominican Republic have not been forced to be part of the draft, and players from many other nations can sign with major league teams as free agents as young as 16. As a result, teams have abandoned Puerto Rico for Venezuela and the Dominican Republic, where they invest hundreds of millions of dollars in academies.

 

“The draft has had a large effect on the Puerto Rican baseball player,” said Alomar, who was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y., in July. “A lot of youngsters don’t have the economic resources to play and go to college. For me, it isn’t what is best for us.”

 

Alomar said he hoped that Major League Baseball “realizes what is happening with the talent here and they give us the opportunity to be like the Dominican Republic is and Venezuela is, so we can have more players signed.”

 

Only a handful of major league teams have full-time scouts on the island, and most clubs rely on a couple of tournaments a year to scout players. The limited exposure for Puerto Ricans means players outside the metropolitan area are more likely to be overlooked.

 

“They abandoned us a little, and we fell hard,” said Tony Rodriguez, a former major leaguer who is an instructor at Puerto Rico’s first baseball academy.

 

Baseball officials here note that Puerto Rico has a major disadvantage when competing against American talent because high school baseball is almost nonexistent on the island. Instead, players hone their craft on teams in American Legion ball and the Pony League. Many players in rural areas are forced to travel to cities where the better teams and leagues play.

 

Bernier said Puerto Rico was not prepared to be included in the draft, but even if it were given time, there was not much it could do to change its current model of development.

 

“We have had the same model here for 60 years,” said Bernier, now the president of the Puerto Rican Olympic Committee. “We can’t change our model to what they have in the United States. We don’t have enough space on the island for baseball fields for high schools. This island is full.”

 

In 2007, Bernier met with Major League Baseball officials about the topic and suggested a 10-year exclusion from the draft. He maintains his stance.

 

“That’s the only way we’ll know if the problem is the draft or not,” Bernier said. “And I guarantee you we would do a lot better. No one has been able to counter my argument about the draft, and that would prove the problem is the draft.”

 

But not everyone says the draft is the main issue. Some, like Sandy Alderson, the general manager of the Mets and a former consultant for Major League Baseball who handled issues in Latin America, said Puerto Rico’s socioeconomic status — somewhere between the United States and the Dominican Republic — left it in a peculiar position.

 

The Puerto Rican Baseball Academy and High School has 12 teachers and 16 baseball instructors.

“From a socioeconomic standpoint, things have changed quite a bit in Puerto Rico,” he said. “There are lots of other ways to spend your time. In the Dominican Republic, on the other hand, unfortunately, poor kids who are playing ball and who are from the lowest economic strata in that country, baseball is a way to escape, so there’s a greater concentration of players and effort. I think they’re just very different dynamics than Puerto Rico.”

 

Like Alderson, Cora, a 13-year veteran of the major leagues who became a free agent in October, says the draft is only part of the problem. Cora said more needed to be done to develop Puerto Rican talent: better coaching, more structure in leagues across the island and more government aid, for example. He conceded that the system had hurt Puerto Ricans’ exposure to major league clubs.

 

“It’s an excuse,” Cora said of blaming the draft. “This is the situation we’re in, and we have to deal with it. We need to make adjustments and prepare our prospects.”

 

Adjusting to the situation has proved difficult for Puerto Rico. One attempt has been the creation of baseball academies.

 

Unlike those in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, the Puerto Rican Baseball Academy and High School, which began in August 2002, is financed by Major League Baseball as a whole, not by individual franchises.

 

Situated in Gurabo, a northeastern city, the academy has high schoolers from all over the island descend on its modest one-building campus.

 

The students go to class from 8 in the morning until noon, eat lunch, then board buses to baseball fields in the surrounding area — the academy does not have its own fields — to practice until 4 p.m.

 

The academy, which has 12 teachers and 16 baseball instructors, has had 70 players drafted upon graduation and more than 400 sent to colleges in the United States. But it has yet to produce a prospect who reached the major leagues.

 

This year the academy has two senior shortstops projected to go in the first round of the June draft: Jesmuel Valentín and Edwin Correa.

 

“We identified that Puerto Rico needed more structure for talent,” the headmaster Lucy Batista said. “Not everyone will play professionally, but almost all can play collegiately and study to become a professional in something else.”

 

The academy receives $400,000 annually from Major League Baseball.

 

“There’s no question the model works,” said Lou Melendez, the vice president for international baseball operations for Major League Baseball. “The problem is those models are very expensive, because when you start operating an academic school, it costs a lot of money.”

 

An academy may not be necessary if M.L.B. removes Puerto Rico’s apparent competitive disadvantage by going to a worldwide draft, which would include players from every country. The original intent behind including Puerto Rico in the draft was that it was the initial step toward such a draft. Because Puerto Rico is an American commonwealth, it was the obvious place to begin.

 

The expansion of the draft has not taken place, but the major leagues may be drifting in that direction. The new collective bargaining agreement, signed in November, establishes limits on the amount clubs can spend in a country. In addition, Melendez said, a committee has been created to explore putting an international draft in place.

 

“You may see one in a year or two — in 2013 or 2014,” he said.

 

Meanwhile, baseball officials in Puerto Rico are watching the sport deteriorate. Bernier, Puerto Rico’s former secretary of sport, said that the number of children who play baseball had not declined but that the diminished winter league and the relative dearth of Puerto Ricans in the major leagues were causes for concern.

 

“I think M.L.B. recognizes the problem, and they have every right to include us in the draft,” Bernier said. “It’s their decision, and we have to try to adjust accordingly. But with the way things are, Puerto Ricans are slowly becoming less enthusiastic about baseball, and that can become a vicious cycle.”

[Laika]

I don't know enough to make any conclusions, but look at what happened to baseball in Puerto Rico immediately after they changed systems. It could be a coincidence, but I'm not sure.

 

I think MLB can avoid the issues that maybe contributed to the decline of baseball in Puerto Rico. There are a few reasons.

 

By being included in the MLB draft, Puerto Ricans had to wait until the typical draft year (conclusion of high school), so they competed with all the North American players. This wasn't really fair to the kids since high school baseball is almost non-existent there. Teams also no longer had any incentive to invest in academies for cultivating talent in PR, since any other team could just draft the players. Teams also had other countries that they could simply move to - DR, Venezuela, etc., and they did so.

 

If the international draft is separate from the rule 4 draft and lets players be selected at 16, then I don't think there would be any negative impact. What would make it even less likely to have negative impact would be to simply have a money slot system where players can still pick which team they want to sign with - this would keep incentives for MLB teams to cultivate talent with academies, etc. I'm suggesting that teams be granted slots with specific dollar values like in the MLB draft, but these are treated like limitations on allowable agreements, so there is no draft per se. If the team has slot 1 with a value of $8M, then they are permitted to sign any one player for up to $8M.

 

Heck, PR could even be thrown back into the international draft.

 

There's also the chance that PR's baseball decline had nothing to do with the MLB draft, which you allude to.