From goat to hero in 3 moves

[jays4life19]

Here you go sir:

 

 

http://www.forums.mlb.com/discussions/Toronto_Blue_Jays/_/_/ml-bluejays/87162.1

 

That was a fun read. lol.

[Deadpool]

That people get so excited over so little. Just feels like as long as the trades are fair, AA could just take one man hole cover plug another manhole and move another cover to another and people will be in awe of his greatness temporarily, but pissed again when they figure out they still have the same number of holes in the ground. The only way THIS team is getting better is by spending money, unfortunately. The Martin signing would have been HUGE if it was JPA behind the plate. Navarro actually did an ok job.. The Donaldson trade would again be HUGE if we didn't already have a player capable of putting up 4+WAR at the same position, but we did and now we don't. Basically in the end we are a better team, but not by much and certainly not by enough to win the division. WAR is a terrible way to approximate how much we've improved.

 

Happ was about equal value to Estrada so basically we traded Lind for Saunders, meh at best. We saved some money for Rogers in the process, sure. Meanwhile we lost Melky and Rasmus, but we're better defensively so its all good right?

 

AA has much to prove yet.

 

Frankly, I'd have liked the Lind for Saunders deal MORE than the Lind for Estrada, Happ for Saunders deals. Personally I'm in the Happ > Estrada camp.

 

I also feel that, as much as I loves me some Adam Lind (goodnight, sweet prince...), Saunders is the better overall fit for this team.

[GD]

That people get so excited over so little. Just feels like as long as the trades are fair, AA could just take one man hole cover plug another manhole and move another cover to another and people will be in awe of his greatness temporarily, but pissed again when they figure out they still have the same number of holes in the ground. The only way THIS team is getting better is by spending money, unfortunately. The Martin signing would have been HUGE if it was JPA behind the plate. Navarro actually did an ok job.. The Donaldson trade would again be HUGE if we didn't already have a player capable of putting up 4+WAR at the same position, but we did and now we don't. Basically in the end we are a better team, but not by much and certainly not by enough to win the division. WAR is a terrible way to approximate how much we've improved.

 

Happ was about equal value to Estrada so basically we traded Lind for Saunders, meh at best. We saved some money for Rogers in the process, sure. Meanwhile we lost Melky and Rasmus, but we're better defensively so its all good right?

 

AA has much to prove yet.

 

1. Navarro is even worse than JPA defensively. You are overestimating Navarro's capabilities.

2. Lawrie is CAPABLE of putting up 4+ WAR. Donaldson is LIKELY to put up 4+ WAR.

3. I hate it when people just insult things (in this case, WAR) without actually giving any reasoning behind it. Would love to have an actual discussion on it, but that's not possible with no reasoning.

4. Lind for Saunders is a good deal that people were also hoping for. That's probably adding a win while getting cheaper, and dealing from a position we have covered (Smoak will be good, methinks).

5. Getting better defensively IS good, even at the loss of offense, because a win is a win is a win. Defense = offense = pitching.

 

Except that the Jays didn't have Reyes at the time. They probably figured they'd sign Izturies (if they hadn't signed him yet), don't remember.

 

 

Anyway.

 

Good point, but they were discussing the deal + they knew they would have a gaping SS hole with Escobar gone if they didn't get Reyes.

[ElNik2013]

Frankly, I'd have liked the Lind for Saunders deal MORE than the Lind for Estrada, Happ for Saunders deals. Personally I'm in the Happ > Estrada camp.

 

I also feel that, as much as I loves me some Adam Lind (goodnight, sweet prince...), Saunders is the better overall fit for this team.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone would disagree. However, I think you'd agree that if Seattle had actually offered Saunders for Lind, AA would've taken it in a heartbeat.

 

I think we need to accept that sometimes, what a GM gets for a player is likely the most he was offered for said player, regardless of what we think this player should fetch.

[TheHurl]

My quote, got to admit I feel bad for saying f*** You to Kirksaw now.

 

"I am probably over-reacting when I say crippling potential. It's certainly not a deal would make. It's cash and flexibility that is sacrificed. $70M in the last three years of Reyes contract could be really bad. I agree that they didn't move significant stuff. They still need things to really come together to make the playoffs next year (much like what I said about the Marlins off-season last year when everyone was applauding it). If they don't make the playoffs it could be similar moves to "tweak" next year.

 

Some things I'd like to add:

 

And I'm trying to find the original artwork for the Canadian Rays Fan Club membership cards. Doubt I have it considering it was 4 computers ago."

[baloojayz]

1. Navarro is even worse than JPA defensively. You are overestimating Navarro's capabilities.

2. Lawrie is CAPABLE of putting up 4+ WAR. Donaldson is LIKELY to put up 4+ WAR.

3. I hate it when people just insult things (in this case, WAR) without actually giving any reasoning behind it. Would love to have an actual discussion on it, but that's not possible with no reasoning.

4. Lind for Saunders is a good deal that people were also hoping for. That's probably adding a win while getting cheaper, and dealing from a position we have covered (Smoak will be good, methinks).

5. Getting better defensively IS good, even at the loss of offense, because a win is a win is a win. Defense = offense = pitching.

.

 

 

JPA was terrible both defensively and offensively. Navarro is below average defensively, good offensively.

 

Sure JD will likely outperform Lawrie, my point was his acquisition means less with us already having Lawrie.

 

Lind for Saunders is a good trade but it was more like Lind and Melky for Saunders. Money we saved doesn't matter until it is spent.

 

We are just so far HOPING Smoak works out, just as we are Pompey and Travis. Thats now 3 positions with guys that hopefully work out.

 

Getting better defensively is good OFCOURSE, but Melky's batting average was a huge complement to the big guys and he adds far more value to the team offensively than Saunders does defensively. We'll see I guess. Goins' stellar defense is very easily over looked by his terrible offense.

 

WAR is one of those stats that is calculated in a vacuum, thats about all I care to say about it. WAR "double counts" a good bit of value when you go from individual players to a team.

[Jimcanuck]

JPA was terrible both defensively and offensively. Navarro is below average defensively, good offensively.

 

Sure JD will likely outperform Lawrie, my point was his acquisition means less with us already having Lawrie.

 

Lind for Saunders is a good trade but it was more like Lind and Melky for Saunders. Money we saved doesn't matter until it is spent.

 

We are just so far HOPING Smoak works out, just as we are Pompey and Travis. Thats now 3 positions with guys that hopefully work out.

 

Getting better defensively is good OFCOURSE, but Melky's batting average was a huge complement to the big guys and he adds far more value to the team offensively than Saunders does defensively. We'll see I guess. Goins' stellar defense is very easily over looked by his terrible offense.

 

WAR is one of those stats that is calculated in a vacuum, thats about all I care to say about it. WAR "double counts" a good bit of value when you go from individual players to a team.

 

Lot of WTF in this post

[Atothe]

I have more belief that Pompey and Travis will work rather smoak. Don't get your hopes up. For Bautista there is three Corey patterson

[Spanky99]

That people get so excited over so little. Just feels like as long as the trades are fair, AA could just take one man hole cover plug another manhole and move another cover to another and people will be in awe of his greatness temporarily, but pissed again when they figure out they still have the same number of holes in the ground. The only way THIS team is getting better is by spending money, unfortunately. The Martin signing would have been HUGE if it was JPA behind the plate. Navarro actually did an ok job.. The Donaldson trade would again be HUGE if we didn't already have a player capable of putting up 4+WAR at the same position, but we did and now we don't. Basically in the end we are a better team, but not by much and certainly not by enough to win the division. WAR is a terrible way to approximate how much we've improved.

 

Happ was about equal value to Estrada so basically we traded Lind for Saunders, meh at best. We saved some money for Rogers in the process, sure. Meanwhile we lost Melky and Rasmus, but we're better defensively so its all good right?

 

AA has much to prove yet.

 

Oh my...

[baloojayz]

Oh my...

 

Sounds like you guys already bought your flex packs.

[baloojayz]

Lot of WTF in this post

 

How am I supposed to respond to that?

[baloojayz]

Does everyone but me feel we are playoff bound with the moves this far? Seriously?

[Deadpool]

Does everyone but me feel we are playoff bound with the moves this far? Seriously?

 

We are a much better team (on paper) this year than last, and the off-season is not over. Thus far, the Orioles are much worse, the Yankees are much worse and the Red Sox have a rotation that is held together with rubber bands and thumb tacks... Even with the lack of an "ace" there's an argument to be made that we have the best rotation in the AL East (and I've seen it made on respectable websites beyond this forum). The only area where we're obviously weaker than our direct competition is the bullpen, and bullpens are the most volatile s*** in baseball (see Delebar, Steve and Ryan, B.J. for examples from this team...)

 

Obviously the caveat is: The games have to be played... However, this is a team that, as currently constructed, should be in the thick of the AL East race. Oh... And opening day is almost four months away, LOTS of time to make additional moves.

 

Edit: I wrote "best rotation in baseball", I meant "best rotation in the AL East". Goddamn you, Monday morning!

[ScientificReason]

Thread makes no sense, the GOAT is Greatest of all time...........

[Deadpool]

http://coffeestainstudios.com/sites/default/files/games/logo/goat_simulator_logo_0.jpg

[dineke]

From goat to hero to fired...

[The Cats Ass]

Ya I don't know why people think Martin is such an upgrade. It's not like he put up 7.5 more WAR than Navarro in 60 less PA or anything...

 

And Martin hit less HRs and RBIs than Navarro too. So It may even be a downgrade.

[xposbrad]

Both Russell Martin and Josh Donaldson are 5+ WAR guys. Travis projects to be 2+ and Saunders projects to be better than Melky. We are one of the best teams in baseball on paper.

 

Well, easy there cowboy. We aren't top 5 yet. Jays are in at 14/1 according to oddshark (they provide a lot of data to various vegas bookies). Jays are currently at 14/1 to win the 2015 world series. That's tied with SF/SEA. They are somewhere in the top 10, but Boston is a favorite right now. Remember, oddsmakers generally don't just use current info, they try putting in future info like (open offers, guessing what future moves the club might do) to their odds so they use all available information.

 

But no, the Jays are not one of the best, they would need to be a top 5 team for that, which they aren't, unless you are smarter than the Vegas oddsmakers. I somehow don't think you'd be posting on these forums if you were

[Deadpool]

Well, easy there cowboy. We aren't top 5 yet. Jays are in at 14/1 according to oddshark (they provide a lot of data to various vegas bookies). Jays are currently at 14/1 to win the 2015 world series. That's tied with SF/SEA. They are somewhere in the top 10, but Boston is a favorite right now. Remember, oddsmakers generally don't just use current info, they try putting in future info like (open offers, guessing what future moves the club might do) to their odds so they use all available information.

 

But no, the Jays are not one of the best, they would need to be a top 5 team for that, which they aren't, unless you are smarter than the Vegas oddsmakers. I somehow don't think you'd be posting on these forums if you were

 

So uhhh... They're guessing?

 

I dunno about you, but I get the impression from this thread that we're discussing the facts as they stand now, not saying "hey, if we do nothing, and the Red Sox sign Lester and Scherzer, we're still the best team!"

[TwistedLogic]

Well, easy there cowboy. We aren't top 5 yet. Jays are in at 14/1 according to oddshark (they provide a lot of data to various vegas bookies). Jays are currently at 14/1 to win the 2015 world series. That's tied with SF/SEA. They are somewhere in the top 10, but Boston is a favorite right now. Remember, oddsmakers generally don't just use current info, they try putting in future info like (open offers, guessing what future moves the club might do) to their odds so they use all available information.

 

But no, the Jays are not one of the best, they would need to be a top 5 team for that, which they aren't, unless you are smarter than the Vegas oddsmakers. I somehow don't think you'd be posting on these forums if you were

http://i.gyazo.com/74426eb3fbbb8bae4aca9eea025c4c20.png

 

Two men are facing mischief charges after a sandwich order gone wrong led to a snake-throwing confrontation at a Tim Hortons restaurant in Saskatoon.

 

Police say the 20-year-olds began arguing with an employee because they wanted their onions diced. The argument got worse, and one of the men pulled

a snake from his friend’s pocket and threw it behind the counter.

 

Officers called to the scene were able to quickly locate the snake and determined it was non-poisonous.

 

The two men were arrested nearby.

 

Police have found a temporary home for the snake until it can be released into the wild next spring.

 

---

[xposbrad]

So uhhh... They're guessing?

 

I dunno about you, but I get the impression from this thread that we're discussing the facts as they stand now, not saying "hey, if we do nothing, and the Red Sox sign Lester and Scherzer, we're still the best team!"

 

Well, you can doubt vegas odds, it's not like it's a billion dollar business or anything. I guess we can just go off WAR and everyone's opinion on these forums instead.

[KingKat]

Well, you can doubt vegas odds, it's not like it's a billion dollar business or anything. I guess we can just go off WAR and everyone's opinion on these forums instead.

 

Dude do you even understand how that billion dollar industry works? They are not in the business of prediction sports results (a fool's errand anyways). They are in the business of predicting betting trends (to insulate themselves from risk). That's what Vegas odds are all about. They couldn't care less who wins. They just want to set up the odds in such a way as they get as close to a 50/50 split on the over/under as possible.

[Deadpool]

Well, you can doubt vegas odds, it's not like it's a billion dollar business or anything. I guess we can just go off WAR and everyone's opinion on these forums instead.

 

Yes, and it's also not like they'll make money anyway because it's a 30 team league and there will be people who bet on each team, meaning that no matter who wins, bookies win more. Vegas makes money off volume, not knowing the future.

[xposbrad]

Dude do you even understand how that billion dollar industry works? They are not in the business of prediction sports results (a fool's errand anyways). They are in the business of predicting betting trends (to insulate themselves from risk). That's what Vegas odds are all about. They couldn't care less who wins. They just want to set up the odds in such a way as they get as close to a 50/50 split on the over/under as possible.

 

Yes, they balance their risks as people move bets into different teams, however, it's still a rough estimate of what the odds are because anyone can place bets and win. So those odds don't move that much daily. Anyways, you can spin it anyway you want, yes the Jays are the best team on paper, and we will win the world series twice this year, is that better? I am just showing you what the Vegas odds are. Because if you have different odds, and the Jays are the favorite, I highly suggest you place big bets on them, since you are getting a 14/1 odds on them right now. Right?

[KingKat]

Yes, they balance their risks as people move bets into different teams, however, it's still a rough estimate of what the odds are because anyone can place bets and win.

 

No it's not. I just explained this to you and you insist on being obtuse about it and then getting all whiny and passive aggresive to boot. I don't care whether you think the Jays are the favourites or aren't the favourites. I would however be interested in any arguments you have to support either position. Vegas betting odds just aren't an argument for anything. Two years ago, the Jays were the favourites by Vegas odds despite those terrible trades. Why? Because those moves really moved the needle betting wise. A lot of people got really enthusiatic. This time, after being burned, people are being more cautious despite the fact that this team will actually have a better chance of winning (not to mention, some fans are actually pessimistic because of the loss of familiar faces like Melky and Brett). That's what the lines tell us. They don't tell anybody f*** all about what's more likely or less likely to happen.

[Spanky99]

Well, you can doubt vegas odds, it's not like it's a billion dollar business or anything. I guess we can just go off WAR and everyone's opinion on these forums instead.

 

You haven't the slightest clue how Vegas lines work, this is apparent.

[Spanky99]

Yes, they balance their risks as people move bets into different teams, however, it's still a rough estimate of what the odds are because anyone can place bets and win. So those odds don't move that much daily. Anyways, you can spin it anyway you want, yes the Jays are the best team on paper, and we will win the world series twice this year, is that better? I am just showing you what the Vegas odds are. Because if you have different odds, and the Jays are the favorite, I highly suggest you place big bets on them, since you are getting a 14/1 odds on them right now. Right?

 

The Jays suck, amirite? Always the contrarian, you're not even a fan, the big bad Blue Jays came in and stole the Expos glory...*sighs*

[KingKat]

XposBrad = BradFullmerFan from the DJF comments section?

 

Fullmer came up as an Expo after all.

[xposbrad]

XposBrad = BradFullmerFan from the DJF comments section?

 

Fullmer came up as an Expo after all.

 

lol I don't know who that is, but I did love Fullmer even though he juiced.

[xposbrad]

The Jays suck, amirite? Always the contrarian, you're not even a fan, the big bad Blue Jays came in and stole the Expos glory...*sighs*

 

The Jays don't suck. I don't think they are the favorites either. I think they are a top 10 team right now. If they traded for, or signed a #1, I think they could be a top 5 team. I think Boston signs Lester and/or trades for another front end starter. I also don't think the Jays are done yet either, so I prefer to wait until opening day until I see what the rosters are before saying, the Jays are not making or making the playoffs this year. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.