Munenori Kawasaki and Dan Johnson outrighted

[jaysfan2014]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/10/blue-jays-outright-munenori-kawasaki-dan-johnson.html

 

No surprise.. we need a REAL 2B. Munenori Kawasaki is minor league depth and nothing more. And Dan Johnson is AAAA.

[KingKat]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/10/blue-jays-outright-munenori-kawasaki-dan-johnson.html

 

No surprise.. we need a REAL 2B. Munenori Kawasaki is minor league depth and nothing more. And Dan Johnson is AAAA.

 

They did the same thing with Kawasaki last year. It's roster management. Doesn't mean he won't be back. Doesn't mean the Jays will get a REAL 2B.

[jaysfan2014]

They did the same thing with Kawasaki last year. It's roster management. Doesn't mean he won't be back. Doesn't mean the Jays will get a REAL 2B.

 

True. But remember, we also have Maicer Izturis returning as well.

[KingKat]

True. But remember, we also have Maicer Izturis returning as well.

 

So... you're saying that the Jays need a REAL 2B but maybe it's o.k. if they don't because they have Izturis?

[G-Snarls]

Can't imagine Izturis being any damn good at all next year

 

Come on AA, get us a REAL second baseman. Please.

[burlingtonbandit]

Kawasaki probably comes back on a minor league deal like last year.

[G-Snarls]

Kawasaki probably comes back on a minor league deal like last year.

 

That would be fine

[guylaroche5]

I don't recall Izturis ever being good. Giving him a three year deal has been one of AA's worst moves.

 

3 mil AAV is definitely not one of this "worst moves"

[KingKat]

I don't recall Izturis ever being good. Giving him a three year deal has been one of AA's worst moves.

 

The weird thing is that AA already had Aviles under control at that point at a smaller commitment. He basically engineered the situation that forced Aviles out by giving Izturis an extra year that he wouldn't get anywhere else and that inneficient signing prompted a very inneficient trade (two versatile part time players for one reliever). That whole off season was weird, AA just suddenly started acting like money doesn't matter.

[glory]

I think Asdrubal Cabrera will be AA's target (can play 2B and SS, though neither of them very well). They'll stick Pompey and Gose in the OF to save money, and for some reason I don't think AA is done with Juan Francisco.

[burlingtonbandit]

I think Asdrubal Cabrera will be AA's target (can play 2B and SS, though neither of them very well). They'll stick Pompey and Gose in the OF to save money, and for some reason I don't think AA is done with Juan Francisco.

 

I'm not sure I want Cabrera. He seemed to fall off a cliff at the end of the season and looking at his numbers, it doesn't look like he would be that good of a player. He's been a below average hitter and fielder the last 2 seasons and had less WAR in the last 2 seasons that Izturis did in his 2 seasons prior to being signed by the Jays. If we are looking at a FA infielder my first choice is Headley.

[glory]

I'm not sure I want Cabrera. He seemed to fall off a cliff at the end of the season and looking at his numbers, it doesn't look like he would be that good of a player. He's been a below average hitter and fielder the last 2 seasons and had less WAR in the last 2 seasons that Izturis did in his 2 seasons prior to being signed by the Jays. If we are looking at a FA infielder my first choice is Headley.

 

I'm not a fan of Cabrera either, but that's who I am predicting AA will go after.

 

Ideally, I'd move Reyes to 2B and sign or trade for a SS (Hardy, Drew, Didi if available, etc), but that's not going to happen.

[G-Snarls]

Free agents and potential free agents at 2B/SS/3B

 

Second Basemen

Emilio Bonifacio

Alexi Casilla

Mark Ellis

Rafael Furcal

Kelly Johnson

Nick Punto *

Brian Roberts

Ramon Santiago

Rickie Weeks *

Ben Zobrist *

 

 

Shortstops

Mike Aviles *

Asdrubal Cabrera

Stephen Drew

Alex Gonzalez

J.J. Hardy

Jed Lowrie

John McDonald

Hiroyuki Nakajima *

Hanley Ramirez

Jimmy Rollins *

 

 

Third Basemen

Wilson Betemit

Alberto Callaspo

Eric Chavez

Jack Hannahan *

Chase Headley

Casey McGehee

Donnie Murphy

Nick Punto *

Aramis Ramirez *

Pablo Sandoval

Ty Wigginton

 

* – player whose current contract includes 2015 option

[G-Snarls]

How much for Hanley R? Zero chance?

[KingKat]

Free agents and potential free agents at 2B/SS/3B

 

Second Basemen

Emilio Bonifacio

Alexi Casilla

Mark Ellis

Rafael Furcal

Kelly Johnson

Nick Punto *

Brian Roberts

Ramon Santiago

Rickie Weeks *

Ben Zobrist *

 

 

Shortstops

Mike Aviles *

Asdrubal Cabrera

Stephen Drew

Alex Gonzalez

J.J. Hardy

Jed Lowrie

John McDonald

Hiroyuki Nakajima *

Hanley Ramirez

Jimmy Rollins *

 

 

Third Basemen

Wilson Betemit

Alberto Callaspo

Eric Chavez

Jack Hannahan *

Chase Headley

Casey McGehee

Donnie Murphy

Nick Punto *

Aramis Ramirez *

Pablo Sandoval

Ty Wigginton

 

* – player whose current contract includes 2015 option

 

Some of these guys seem to be out there every year.

[G-Snarls]

Some of these guys seem to be out there every year.

 

Yeah. A lot of them just keep getting 1 year deals over and over.

 

As said above, that's probably all Izturis ever should have gotten.

[jays4life19]

Yeah. A lot of them just keep getting 1 year deals over and over.

 

As said above, that's probably all Izturis ever should have gotten.

 

It was an okay signing at the time. He was pretty decent in LA. For whatever reason his play just fell off a cliff in 2013.

[KingKat]

Yeah. A lot of them just keep getting 1 year deals over and over.

 

As said above, that's probably all Izturis ever should have gotten.

 

I liked Izturis at the time as a kind of poor man's Scutaro and I probably supported the signing but, in hindsight, it seems pretty absurd for the Jays to have been so singularly focused on him and overpay him in years when there were other options including Aviles who was in their back pocket. It's funny how a bunch of seemingly innocuous moves can really add up and limit a team down the road.

[jays4life19]

I liked Izturis at the time as a kind of poor man's Scutaro and I probably supported the signing but, in hindsight, it seems pretty absurd for the Jays to have been so singularly focused on him and overpay him in years when there were other options including Aviles who was in their back pocket. It's funny how a bunch of seemingly innocuous moves can really add up and limit a team down the road.

 

Hypothetically, if there was a utility guy on the market this year who can play 2nd for us and the last 5 years he put up 1.6 fWAR, 3.2 fWAR, 1.0 fWAR 2.0 fWAR and 0.8 fWAR and we could get him for 3 years at 3 million AAV. I think we would all do the deal. I don't blame AA for that one...it was a good solid signing that just didn't work out.

Edited October 2, 2014 by jays4life19

[Angrioter]

Aramis or Kung Fu Panda please!!

[G-Snarls]

It was an okay signing at the time. He was pretty decent in LA. For whatever reason his play just fell off a cliff in 2013.

 

Yeah I had no problem with it at the time, I'll be honest. It just didn't work out very well at all.

[KingKat]

It was an okay signing at the time. He was pretty decent in LA. For whatever reason his play just fell off a cliff in 2013.

 

He couldn't play SS and neither could Bonifacio whereas Aviles could. A signing can look o.k. in isolation but really not work at all in the larger context (ending up without a backup SS).

[jays4life19]

He couldn't play SS and neither could Bonifacio whereas Aviles could. A signing can look o.k. in isolation but really not work at all in the larger context (ending up without a backup SS).

 

IIRC, The Aviles move was made well after once Boston had called and AA asked John Farrell if he was interested in joining. Giving Izzy a 3rd year was to get him to sign early and fill an important position with a probably projected 1+ War player for 3 million dollars.

 

Izzy can play SS too just not that well.

[KingKat]

 

Izzy can play SS too just not that well.

 

That's an understatement. He wasn't good enough at SS to back up a guy like Reyes which was my larger point.

 

This is the chronology of moves as announced on BlueJays.com:

 

10/21/12

Toronto Blue Jays traded RHP David Carpenter to Boston Red Sox for SS Mike Aviles.

 

11/03/12

Cleveland Indians traded RHP Esmil Rogers to Toronto Blue Jays for 3B Mike Aviles and C Yan Gomes.

 

11/08/12

Toronto Blue Jays signed free agent 3B Maicer Izturis

 

 

Basically the Jays put themselves in a very poor bargaining position with Izturis by trading Aviles first. Now obviously they had to know when they traded Aviles that they probably would sign Izturis but they did so at the cost of a year no one else would give him. Not catastrophic or anything but it's still odd that that willingly put themselves in a position where they needed Izturis. They chose to do that.

 

Meanwhile, there was a clear failure on the Jays part to recognize the defensive value and overall usefullness of versatile players like Gomes and Aviles who play premium positions well in addition to being versatile and conversely there was a clear over-estimation of the value and overall usefullness of a guy like Bonifacio who is versatile only in the sense that he plays several positions poorly. That's a pretty critical miscalculation to make when you're making a run at contention.

Edited October 2, 2014 by KingKat

[Governator]

If they can land Hardy, moving Reyes to 2B would be a solid upgrade all around at an affordable cost. AA probably wants to save face and fears talking to Reyes about that move.

[LongTimeReader]

If they can land Hardy, moving Reyes to 2B would be a solid upgrade all around at an affordable cost. AA probably wants to save face and fears talking to Reyes about that move.

 

It's kind of already been established that the difference between SS and 2B is negligible. To be honest this doesn't really fix anything. You can't hide Reyes' poor defense at 2B. At least put the strongest arm at SS, which is Reyes IMO.

[G-Snarls]

Don't think a 3B will be an option ... and I think the trade market for a 2B/SS will be just as important to AA as FAs. Cubs, D'Backs, BoSox, Rangers, Dodgers ... and probably missing a team or two there ... are all options.

 

Agree on all counts

 

I presume that AA would prefer a MIF to a 3B, and would rather trade for a younger guy than hire an older declining one

[KingKat]

 

But, no, having Aviles v. not having Aviles wasn't the difference in total monies owed, or years obligated, in obtaining Izturis' services.

 

From an outside perspective, it's true that even without Aviles, they didn't have to pursue Izturis and agree to the terms they did. There were options that weren't Izturis or Aviles. From an insider's perspective though, it's hard to know how confident AA would have been about landing another option. In any case, it's just weird to me that the team was keen to sign Izturis when Aviles had just landed on their lap through the Farrell exodus. I guess they just saw more value in having Rogers+Izturis than Aviles+Gomes and they were wrong about that.

 

In any case, JaysFans4Life seemed to think that Aviles was obtained after the Izturis signing so at the very least, I thought it was worthwhile to post the actual timeline to clear up any possible confusion. Exactly, how the different moves influenced the thought process for subsequent moves is a discussion that would be impossible to settle but we know that the sum total was a poorly constructed roster.

[Governator]

It's kind of already been established that the difference between SS and 2B is negligible. To be honest this doesn't really fix anything. You can't hide Reyes' poor defense at 2B. At least put the strongest arm at SS, which is Reyes IMO.

 

Right. Except I'd prefer Hardy over most 2B options avail this year. I like a guy who's put up all of his stats playing out of the East and one of the better defensive options on the market. Add to that his lower cost seems like a good fit.

[LongTimeReader]

Right. Except I'd prefer Hardy over most 2B options avail this year. I like a guy who's put up all of his stats playing out of the East and one of the better defensive options on the market. Add to that his lower cost seems like a good fit.

 

Yes.