AA on Tim&Sid

[bill]

whether it's gibbons or AA or Beeston or the players who knows? Fact is the Jays are not a winning organization

[bill]

Even with the promotions of the pitchers this is a top 8 farm maybe even better..Can't say the minor league talent is depleted.

 

Then why did they have Francisco in the lineup this year all year? The talent on the farm teams must be years from the bigs if at all

[bill]

when the jays won the world series it was a hot destination for players. They had a brand new innovative cutting edge stadium that was the envy of the league. Now it looks like a cement toilet bowl with astro turf compared to other stadiums

[burlingtonbandit]

Then why did they have Francisco in the lineup this year all year? The talent on the farm teams must be years from the bigs if at all

 

If you aren't comfortable knowing who the talent on the farm system is should you be saying its a reason why the team isn't performing.

[bendera3]

you cant blame Gibbons for not slotting players, that he didn't have on his roster, into the lineup. Gibbons didn't lose many games this year. A manager's influence is not that big. it's certainly not a 10 win detriment to the team.

 

If you spend several months a year with AAA depth in your starting lineup because that's all you have, the failure is not on you.

[Boxcar]

If that's the case I can call you the same, but I like to think I have a little more class when I'm arguing with someone.

 

My point is Gibbons has never shown through his coaching career that he is a good coach. You can say I'm this or that, but argue my point. Tell me why Gibbons deserves to have his job. He has been given the lead coaching position on the jays for 7 seasons now and has shown nothing to prove otherwise. Even his confrontations with players should be a warning about his ability to manage players.

 

What are you even arguing, though? Gibbons has no control over the on field product. He plays with what he's given.

 

Positives for him:

- He is very even keeled, whether the team is winning or losing.

- Is pretty good at bullpen management

- Players seem to like him

- Makes good use of platoon opportunities

- Rarely employs the bunt

 

If you ever paid attention to Joe Torre during the Yankees dynasty, he made a lot of dumb decisions. If Gibbons had stumbled upon that job, he would be in the hall of fame.

 

I don't really care in terms of w/l whether or not Gibbons goes, but a) it buys the real problem another year, he's funny and I like him and c) he is not bad at his job.

[bill]

If you aren't comfortable knowing who the talent on the farm system is should you be saying its a reason why the team isn't performing.

 

If the talent was there players like Francisco and probably Kawasaki wouldn't be on the roster, to name a few

[burlingtonbandit]

If the talent was there players like Francisco and probably Kawasaki wouldn't be on the roster, to name a few

 

The thing is Francisco wasn't even bad if you only had to give him 150 ABs. He was actually worth positive value. Same with Gose. The problem was not having a 2nd baseman for the entire season and not having a RH platoon in the OF early in the season. There isn't one team out there that had the depth on the minors to survive the injuries to the position players the Jays had.

[burlingtonbandit]

What are you even arguing, though? Gibbons has no control over the on field product. He plays with what he's given.

 

Positives for him:

- He is very even keeled, whether the team is winning or losing.

- Is pretty good at bullpen management

- Players seem to like him

- Makes good use of platoon opportunities

- Rarely employs the bunt

 

If you ever paid attention to Joe Torre during the Yankees dynasty, he made a lot of dumb decisions. If Gibbons had stumbled upon that job, he would be in the hall of fame.

 

I don't really care in terms of w/l whether or not Gibbons goes, but a) it buys the real problem another year, he's funny and I like him and c) he is not bad at his job.

 

In all honestly Gibby is probably a top 8 manager in the MLB. People who think he is a problem don't really know much about baseball.

[ElNik2013]

Weren't those guys drafted when AA was AGM too, minus Snider? I think AA could have done a better job in some areas but he is not as bad as people make him to be. As for him not saying s*** when asked questions, thats his job. Id rather he be good with the media and not say stupid s*** like JPR which impacts guys value. Sure it might be better as a fan to have a better idea of what the team is doing but nothing good comes of him talking more openly about plans and players.

 

As a Sens fan, Bryan Murray is too honest with the media and I think it hurts players value around the league. Look at what the return Jason Spezza got and tell me that other GMs knowing he was going to move him had nothing to do with the s*** return he got.

 

Nolin was drafted by AA in 2010 along with Aaron Sanchez, Noah Syndergaard, Asher Wxxxxajsdfsjfd, Justin Nicolino and Dalton Pompey, but I don't want to rain on anyone's parade.

 

Would I fire AA? Yes I would. However, he'd hardly as bad as some of his former dick-suckers make him out to be...

[Dick_Pole]

AA>JPR. And that's not in defense of AA.

 

JPR was just good enough at putting an on-field product that could win a few more games than it should have given the payroll, because he was good at getting players who were better than scrubs for scrub-like contracts. AA is horrible at that and horrible at roster management which is the only thing that people can look upon with fondness with JPR...at least he got the basics right.

 

But in all those years with JPR and his s***** drafting/player development team, the Jays were never, ever going to make the playoffs. JPR could GM this team for 20 years and the Jays would have 20 75-85 win teams and forever be in the abyss because it was completely bereft of any young talent worth a damn. The only way they were going to win was to spend the team's way up and that wasn't an option at the time. JP's legacy is Adam Lind, Aaron Hill, Shaun Marcum and Ricky Romero....not exactly the base you can build a championship on. JPA too though those benefits weren't reaped until after he was gone so AA can take some of the heat for letting that player go to hell everywhere except in his own mind.

 

Going into 2015 I haven't been this optimistic about the starting pitching depth on this squad since the late 90's when the Jays had Cy Young award winners at the top of the rotation and the prospect of Halladay/Escobar/Carpenter coming up to take the bottom half. JPR's guys had some promise too except in any given year two of them would be out for the season with TJS.

 

AA has some incredible weaknesses and holes to fill, but the irony with that is that those holes should be relatively easy to fix. JPR ran a team out there featuring Halladay and 24 ok baseball players. And he got ok results. But to build a champion he was going to need to rebuild the entire roster. AA's top end of the roster is filled with players you can build a championship team around. The problem is the bottom half of the roster is filled with horseshit. If he can get off his lazy fat ass and replace the horseshit with decent players, the Jays actually have a pretty decent chance to win. The problem is he is either too lazy, or in denial of what needs to be done.

[GD]

If we combined AA and JPR we'd be set lol

[Smokey]

But in all those years with JPR and his s***** drafting/player development team, the Jays were never, ever going to make the playoffs.

 

I don't think it's fair to directly compare the two when it comes to drafting since JPR was dealing with a much tighter budget and was often forced to draft lower ceiling college players who had a lower chance to bust. AA on the other hand has been given not only more financial flexibility, but also plenty more time to build a young talented core that was poised to compete on a "sustainable basis". Instead, he's built an old inefficient team that's about to enter the 3rd year of a three year imaginary window to compete with more holes than ever.

 

Besides, bringing up JPR in order to rationalize why AA isn't that bad of a GM is just a sad attempt by delusional apologists to create a false dichotomy. As you mentioned yourself, TFG can't even get the basics right. After failing last year, he talked about how he undervalued defense (so he handed Goins a starting job to fix the problem lol). Now he's mentioning putting more focus on durability, hahaha. The window is about to close but the amateur hour will never end unless there are some big changes (pun intended).

[Dick_Pole]

I don't think it's fair to directly compare the two when it comes to drafting since JPR was dealing with a much tighter budget and was often forced to draft lower ceiling college players who had a lower chance to bust. AA on the other hand has been given not only more financial flexibility, but also plenty more time to build a young talented core that was poised to compete on a "sustainable basis". Instead, he's built an old inefficient team that's about to enter the 3rd year of a three year imaginary window to compete with more holes than ever.

 

Besides, bringing up JPR in order to rationalize why AA isn't that bad of a GM is just a sad attempt by delusional apologist to create a false dichotomy. As you mentioned yourself, TFG can't even get the basics right. After failing last year, he talked about how he undervalued defense (so he handed Goins a starting job to fix the problem lol). Now he's mentioning putting more focus on durability, hahaha. The window is about to close but the amateur hour will never end unless there are some big changes (pun intended).

 

Well yes, I was not arguing that this guy is great, but going against the Ricciardi love fest that's somewhat brewing on here. But I don't agree with your statement that AA's been given more time than JPR to build a young core. JPR was given plenty of time and how many young busts did we have to deal with?

[Smokey]

Well yes, I was not arguing that this guy is great, but going against the Ricciardi love fest that's somewhat brewing on here.

 

I understand. I'm just getting tired of the weak rationalizations by some around here and the delusional comment was more directed at them (Ken, I'm looking at you).

 

But I don't agree with your statement that AA's been given more time than JPR to build a young core. JPR was given plenty of time and how many young busts did we have to deal with?

 

Once he was forced to trade Halladay, the expectations to compete subsided significantly which reduced the pressure and allowed him to let players walk and take advantage of the old CBA (which in fairness he did a great job at). At those times, even I was more forgiving toward his f*** ups and even tolerated jobs being handed to guys like Corey f***ing Patterson. He then threw in the towel after failing to sign Darwish and declared the team "not ready yet" to compete before the 2012 season got underway. JPR never had the same kind of privileges.

[Dick_Pole]

I understand. I'm just getting tired of the weak rationalizations by some around here and the delusional comment was more directed at them (Ken, I'm looking at you).

 

 

 

Once he was forced to trade Halladay, the expectations to compete subsided significantly which reduced the pressure and allowed him to let players walk and take advantage of the old CBA (which in fairness he did a great job at). At those times, even I was more forgiving toward his f*** ups and even tolerated jobs being handed to guys like Corey f***ing Patterson. He then threw in the towel after failing to sign Darwish and declared the team "not ready yet" to compete before the 2012 season got underway. JPR never had the same kind of privileges.

 

I dunno, I think JPR was given some leeway too by the fans given how the Delgado situation was handled and how those trades involving shipping out popular players like Gonzalez and Quantrill didn't pan out with the players coming to the Jays. He rode the Yankees payroll excuse for a long time while in Toronto, up until he had some money to spend on Burnett, Ryan and Thomas.

[Dick_Pole]

Then there's also the debate of Godfrey vs Beeston...who is the bigger noose around the GM's neck.

[KingKat]

By the time he was fired, Ricciardi was the longest tenured GM in baseball. The opportunities he was given were different than the ones that AA has been given but there's no doubt that he was certainly given opportunities.

[burlingtonbandit]

If we combined AA and JPR we'd be set lol

 

We had that the last couple of years of JP's tenure lol.

[RealAccountant]

We had that the last couple of years of JP's tenure lol.

 

You mean the same couple of years that brought this club Encarnacion and Bautista

 

Maybe AA is best served to be an assistant and JPR should have been kept GM

[Atothe]

I thought JPR made a lot of shrewd free agent pickups when given the money. BJ Ryan just didn't work but his first year was spectacular

[burlingtonbandit]

I thought JPR made a lot of shrewd free agent pickups when given the money. BJ Ryan just didn't work but his first year was spectacular

 

But the risk of giving a reliever that much money was a bad decision. Even if he had 2 really good years and one decent one before falling off a cliff the deal would of been a bad one.

[burlingtonbandit]

You mean the same couple of years that brought this club Encarnacion and Bautista

 

Maybe AA is best served to be an assistant and JPR should have been kept GM

 

I've thought of that. Also I wonder how much AA listens to those around him and maybe he listens to them too much or too little.

[Boxcar]

By the time he was fired, Ricciardi was the longest tenured GM in baseball. The opportunities he was given were different than the ones that AA has been given but there's no doubt that he was certainly given opportunities.

 

He was denied an opportunity to alter the franchise dramatically; if he is allowed to trade Wells, I have little doubt the Jays make the playoffs under his tenure.

[KingKat]

But the risk of giving a reliever that much money was a bad decision. Even if he had 2 really good years and one decent one before falling off a cliff the deal would of been a bad one.

 

And if the Jays had made the playoffs that first year, the deal would have worked out. Sometimes you have to overpay in years to meet your immediate needs. I don't love the deal on paper but it's at least defensible in context.

[KingKat]

He was denied an opportunity to alter the franchise dramatically; if he is allowed to trade Wells, I have little doubt the Jays make the playoffs under his tenure.

 

If that happens or if Sabean doesn't panic and back out of the Lincecum trade, Ricciardi is a folk hero around these parts.

[BTS]

He was denied an opportunity to alter the franchise dramatically; if he is allowed to trade Wells, I have little doubt the Jays make the playoffs under his tenure.

 

Also, if he had the payroll and draft budget that AA has been allowed, relative to the rest of the league. AA has been given a lot more opportunity for success by ownership, and so far the results have been worse than what JPR accomplished with less.

[BTS]

If that happens or if Sabean doesn't panic and back out of the Lincecum trade, Ricciardi is a folk hero around these parts.

 

If either happens, JPR is still GM.

[Boxcar]

Also, if he had the payroll and draft budget that AA has been allowed, relative to the rest of the league. AA has been given a lot more opportunity for success by ownership, and so far the results have been worse than what JPR accomplished with less.

 

#bringbackJP

 

What was the rumored Wells deal? I know it was Wells for Kemp+. Rios for Lincecum...

 

Halladay

Lincecum

Burnett

Lilly?

Whoever the f***?

 

What a top 3 right there.

[Boxcar]

Anyway, bottom line, I hold Godfrey more responsible for JP coming up short. Say what you will about Beeston, but he's gotten AA what he needs from ownership despite all of his other massive faults.