Proof the Blue Jays do care about catcher framing

[burlingtonbandit]

So I know a lot of people on this board think the Blue Jays don't care about framing because they signed Navarro and traded Kratz. This article proves that the Blue Jays work with their catchers on their receiving and even made a hard effort on improving Navvaro's framing.

 

My belief is they signed Navarro for the upgrade in the batter's box and the thinking was they could improve his framing. Obviously it doesn't look like it has happened but the effort is there. I really like what Sal Fasano and the Blue Jays are doing with their young catchers and it looks like the Blue Jays have invested in catching.

 

http://www.bluejaysplus.com/sal-fasano-blue-jays-hidden-gem/#sthash.42SutBDj.dpbs

 

Also made a new thread for this because I was not going to add to that Kratz trade thread.

[Frenchsoup]

I don't know if it's proof they care about catcher framing because they still have one of the worst framing catchers in the bigs playing everyday for them. Now have they hired a competent catcher instructor? Yes.

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't know if it's proof they care about catcher framing because they still have one of the worst framing catchers in the bigs playing everyday for them. Now have they hired a competent catcher instructor? Yes.

 

Even with Navarro's bad framing he still is a pretty good hitter. I think the Blue Jays expected him to be better with the bat than he has this year and that they could improve his framing because we know that framing can be taught. I don't think the Blue Jays though that Navarro would be as bad as he has been framing.

[Frenchsoup]

Even with Navarro's bad framing he still is a pretty good hitter. I think the Blue Jays expected him to be better with the bat than he has this year and that they could improve his framing because we know that framing can be taught. I don't think the Blue Jays though that Navarro would be as bad as he has been framing.

 

Well that's pretty stupid on there part to think they could make that drastic of changes on a 30 year old catcher.

[Deadpool]

Sal Fasano is the future manager of this team and I can't wait for it to happen.

 

I also cannot wait for the Jays to all start growin' Fasanostaches, and the inevitable giveaway @ the stadium of fake moustaches.

[flafson]

Even with Navarro's bad framing he still is a pretty good hitter. I think the Blue Jays expected him to be better with the bat than he has this year and that they could improve his framing because we know that framing can be taught. I don't think the Blue Jays though that Navarro would be as bad as he has been framing.

 

I've seen too many times this season that Navarro's mistakes cost his pitchers higher pitch count which usually lead to the pitcher being out of the game way too early. Just as an example, Happ could have stayed an extra 2 innings and then you don't get to the pen and blow up the game.

So you get better production from Navarro but you also lose games when the pitcher doesn't have his A game and Navarro killing it even further.

[burlingtonbandit]

I've seen too many times this season that Navarro's mistakes cost his pitchers higher pitch count which usually lead to the pitcher being out of the game way too early. Just as an example, Happ could have stayed an extra 2 innings and then you don't get to the pen and blow up the game.

So you get better production from Navarro but you also lose games when the pitcher doesn't have his A game and Navarro killing it even further.

 

I hate Navarro's framing as much as anybody..I was just saying what my opinion of the Blue Jay's thought process was right or wrong. I really love to hear about Sal Fasano's work with their catchers though. There are probably many clubs who have similar coaching with their catchers but it is still nice to see.

 

I think he is more valuable in his role as catching rover than a manager of one of the minor or major league teams tbh.

[ElNik2013]

It seems not many other teams care about pitch framing since many teams could've given the Phillies their own version of Brad Lincoln to get him plus a possible future loogy.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, JPA showed improved framing numbers yet everyone here hated him, with a couple of exceptions.

 

Some people were giving credit to Kratz for Happ's good starts, yet have been silent since Kratz was demoted and Happ has continued to pitch decently.

 

It seems to me some posters overrate Kratz and have ripped the organization for trading yet ignore the clear fact that basically the rest of the league has not thought much of him for years since he's been mostly at AAA and is 35 years old.

 

Anyway...

[Jayday]

I've seen too many times this season that Navarro's mistakes cost his pitchers higher pitch count which usually lead to the pitcher being out of the game way too early. Just as an example, Happ could have stayed an extra 2 innings and then you don't get to the pen and blow up the game.

So you get better production from Navarro but you also lose games when the pitcher doesn't have his A game and Navarro killing it even further.

 

Yes, Navarrow should be calling for a pitch where the batter will line out or fly out for a one pitch out and 3 pitch innings. Happ through 7 pitched a 3 hitter and this is the "fault" of the catcher? McHugh threw 111 pitches in 6 innings, yet the astros won. Guess Corporan's game calling won the game.Someone said Navarrow is too old to teach new tricks, wasn't he with TB where they teach pitch framing? Loup lost yesterdays game ,like Mariano did on a few occasions,it happens.

[Rajais Mitten]

I also cannot wait for the Jays to all start growin' Fasanostaches, and the inevitable giveaway @ the stadium of fake moustaches.

 

http://i.imgur.com/n5OyLS6.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ZgMKS0w.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/1r6s0VR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IpTylMS.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/VoB6ACf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FMRQ84Q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6EVADtY.jpg

 

[Dick_Pole]

http://i.imgur.com/n5OyLS6.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ZgMKS0w.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/1r6s0VR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IpTylMS.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/VoB6ACf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FMRQ84Q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6EVADtY.jpg

 

 

If only Jesse Litsch was still with the team...I'd love to see you put together a gingystache

[ElNik2013]

Yes, Navarrow should be calling for a pitch where the batter will line out or fly out for a one pitch out and 3 pitch innings. Happ through 7 pitched a 3 hitter and this is the "fault" of the catcher? McHugh threw 111 pitches in 6 innings, yet the astros won. Guess Corporan's game calling won the game.Someone said Navarrow is too old to teach new tricks, wasn't he with TB where they teach pitch framing? Loup lost yesterdays game ,like Mariano did on a few occasions,it happens.

 

Basically, for some posters, when a pitcher struggles, it's Navarro's fault, what's worse is that now, when a pitcher has a good game, like Happ yesterday, it's also his fault...go figure.

[Frenchsoup]

Basically, for some posters, when a pitcher struggles, it's Navarro's fault, what's worse is that now, when a pitcher has a good game, like Happ yesterday, it's also his fault...go figure.

 

It's his fault because he's a s***** framer and defender. I have no problem with his game calling as nothing really jumps out at me. Also Kratz was pretty elite at both of those things so it's pretty opposite spectrums.

[ElNik2013]

It's his fault because he's a s***** framer and defender. I have no problem with his game calling as nothing really jumps out at me. Also Kratz was pretty elite at both of those things so it's pretty opposite spectrums.

 

 

Kratz is so great, even the T-Rays would rather take on Heath Bell's contract along with Ryan Hanigan than offer up a reliever to the Phillies to get him plus a possible loogy under control for several years.

 

For the record, I liked Kratz and think he's undervalued by MOST of MLB, but the Navarro hate is out of control. JPA is supposed to be a better "framer" than Navarro.....

Edited August 2, 2014 by ElNik2013

[Frenchsoup]

Kratz is so great, even the T-Rays would rather take on Heath Bell's contract along with Ryan Flanigan than offer up a reliever to the Phillies to get him plus a possible loogy under control for several years.

 

For the record, I liked Kratz and think he's undervalued by MOST of MLB, but the Navarro hate is out of control. JPA is supposed to be a better "framer" than Navarro.....

 

Ryan Flanigan as you say-0.7 WAR in 190 PA's

Dioneer-0.9 WAR in 359 PA's

 

You can do the math that Flanigan is clearly the better player with his elite framing.

[jb22]

Ryan Flanigan as you say-0.7 WAR in 190 PA's

Dioneer-0.9 WAR in 359 PA's

 

You can do the math that Flanigan is clearly the better player with his elite framing.

 

No one was comparing Navarro to hanigan...

[ElNik2013]

Ryan Flanigan as you say-0.7 WAR in 190 PA's

Dioneer-0.9 WAR in 359 PA's

 

You can do the math that Flanigan is clearly the better player with his elite framing.

 

 

I brought up Hanigan because the TB Rays, who are believed to value pitch-framing highly, wanted Hanigan so bad, that they were willing to lose $$ on Heath Bell just to get him because Hanigan is supposed to be a great framer. The point being that it would've been cheaper for the Rays, just as an example, to offer up their own version of Brad Lincoln to the Phillies to get Kratz plus a LH reliever who could possibly become a decent loogy.

 

 

Never did I compare Hanigan to Navarro. I even think Navarro is being rated about average on defense this year so....

[Frenchsoup]

I brought up Hanigan because the TB Rays, who are believed to value pitch-framing highly, wanted Hanigan so bad, that they were willing to lose $$ on Heath Bell just to get him because Hanigan is supposed to be a great framer. The point being that it would've been cheaper for the Rays, just as an example, to offer up their own version of Brad Lincoln to the Phillies to get Kratz plus a LH reliever who could possibly become a decent loogy.

 

 

Never did I compare Hanigan to Navarro. I even think Navarro is being rated about average on defense this year so....

 

Oh ok I misunderstood. It was a great trade by AA no doubt it's just to bad he wasn't smart enough to keep this guy on the field and in the org for minimum salary. Now we have a wrong sided platooner that doesn't play great defense to show for it.

[saskjayfan]

game calling is an important part of the defensive responsibilities of a catcher. There is no statistical way of judging this. Sometimes pitchers shake catchers off....sometimes like Buehrle they don't. Buehrle has had a better year. Is it because of Navarro's superior ability to call a game or is he just pitching better. Stro hasn't been shaking Navarro off either this year...Maybe you could call anything and these two would still have the same numbers..

[GD]

There is no statistical way of judging this.

 

Yet.

[ElNik2013]

Jays must have terrible pitch-framers at Buffalo as Sergio Santos walked 3 batters in his inning of work tonight.

[burlingtonbandit]

Lol he threw 8 of 23 pitches for strikes. This has to be rock bottom for him.