Tommy John says pitching injuries up due to arm overuse in younger years

[G-Snarls]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10832585/tommy-john-stunned-rash-pitchers-needing-surgery-season Edited April 25, 2014 by G-Snarls

[HERPDERP]

It's worth repeating that Tommy John is not a doctor and the surgery is not named after the doctor. It's named after the first successful pitcher to be operated on.

 

His opinion is as worthless/meaningful from everyone and anyone from Brian Tallet to Steve Trachsel to Graeme Lloyd.

[G-Snarls]

It's worth repeating that Tommy John is not a doctor and the surgery is not named after the doctor. It's named after the first successful pitcher to be operated on.

 

His opinion is as worthless/meaningful from everyone and anyone from Brian Tallet to Steve Trachsel to Graeme Lloyd.

 

Valid points

 

He may be right or wrong. It's going to take some research to figure it out

[Dr. Dinger]

I don't give a s*** about the anecdotal opinion of some dinosaur mediocre pitcher. Injuries happen to pitchers because they perform an unnatural, forceful motion repeatedly. Injuries have always happened, they just didn't have MRIs to detect them and therefore injured pitchers probably just faded away into oblivion with little explanation or anybody who cared to remember them. This whole narrative that there's a TJS epidemic seems like a giant heap of horseshit to me.

[KingKat]

It's worth repeating that Tommy John is not a doctor and the surgery is not named after the doctor. It's named after the first successful pitcher to be operated on.

 

 

Is this a common misconception? I wasn't aware that anyone thought this.

[G-Snarls]

Is this a common misconception? I wasn't aware that anyone thought this.

 

I think it was more of a pre emptive warning in case someone thought Tommy John himself is some sort of medical expert. No smart poster would think that.

 

I only posted the stoiry because it's getting attention in the media and is an interesting discussion.

 

Is playing baseball 10-12 months of the year as a pre-teen and teenager harmful to your health as a professional pitcher later in life? Maybe

[o2cui2i]

Valid points

 

He may be right or wrong. It's going to take some research to figure it out

 

Nolan Ryan says that it's because pitchers are babied in the minor leagues and don't build up enough arm strength. I'd believe Ryan since he threw a million miles an hour, finished a lot of his own starts, threw for 20 years and never broke down.

[G-Snarls]

Nolan Ryan says that it's because pitchers are babied in the minor leagues and don't build up enough arm strength. I'd believe Ryan since he threw a million miles an hour, finished a lot of his own starts, threw for 20 years and never broke down.

 

Counterpoint: He may have also been a lucky, genetic freak of nature

[o2cui2i]

Counterpoint: He may have also been a lucky, genetic freak of nature

 

Japanese pitchers throw a s*** load from the time they are really young, yet they don't have an epidemic of TJS in Japan. But they also only start once a week during their pro career

[connorp]

I don't give a s*** about the anecdotal opinion of some dinosaur mediocre pitcher. Injuries happen to pitchers because they perform an unnatural, forceful motion repeatedly. Injuries have always happened, they just didn't have MRIs to detect them and therefore injured pitchers probably just faded away into oblivion with little explanation or anybody who cared to remember them. This whole narrative that there's a TJS epidemic seems like a giant heap of horseshit to me.

 

Yeah but by your own opinion it only makes sense that making that violent motion a lot more often could only greatly increase the risk of problems. So you really don't disagree with him.

 

In the US, travel baseball has boomed in the last generation even from when I was 12 over 20 years ago. Read the bios of Mickey Mantle and all those guys (even later) and they basically grew up playing in sandlots and such. Maybe a little league as well..tournament season my 11yo son can play 30+ games a month. Even in the off-season he's practicing pitching indoors at bb facilities. So when you do that over many years.. Like in a Dylan Bundy's case.. I can buy the argument. James Andrews is on record I believe for a similar argument actually..cases of high school pitchers getting the surgery has skyrocketed

[connorp]

I think I read an article where Bundy threw like 300 pitches in 2 days or something crazy like that

[Sammy225]

It is an opinion. Just as my opinion is that arms are basically not built to throw a ball 98MPH. There are a lot opinions out there as to why arm injuries seem to be on the rise.

[leaffie]

Yeah but by your own opinion it only makes sense that making that violent motion a lot more often could only greatly increase the risk of problems. So you really don't disagree with him.

 

In the US, travel baseball has boomed in the last generation even from when I was 12 over 20 years ago. Read the bios of Mickey Mantle and all those guys (even later) and they basically grew up playing in sandlots and such. Maybe a little league as well..tournament season my 11yo son can play 30+ games a month. Even in the off-season he's practicing pitching indoors at bb facilities. So when you do that over many years.. Like in a Dylan Bundy's case.. I can buy the argument. James Andrews is on record I believe for a similar argument actually..cases of high school pitchers getting the surgery has skyrocketed

 

There was a lengthy discussion on this on Sirius a few weeks ago, with Andrews. He felt that the prevalence today was from the amount of work that young arms are taking on. He said top young pitchers in high school can pitch an entire year now with no time off, as they are dragged from different leagues to show case kids. This was never done before. He felt that kids were arriving at minor league camps with years of wear and tear on young developing arms. His opinion that the work load was much too heavy not in the minors where clubs baby pitchers, but in the previous years where coaches are only interested in winning, and parents are interested in show casing their kid.

[G-Snarls]

There was a lengthy discussion on this on Sirius a few weeks ago, with Andrews. He felt that the prevalence today was from the amount of work that young arms are taking on. He said top young pitchers in high school can pitch an entire year now with no time off, as they are dragged from different leagues to show case kids. This was never done before. He felt that kids were arriving at minor league camps with years of wear and tear on young developing arms. His opinion that the work load was much too heavy not in the minors where clubs baby pitchers, but in the previous years where coaches are only interested in winning, and parents are interested in show casing their kid.

 

Right, and this is what John is saying too

 

So what about the current crop of guys like Drabek, Strasburg, Moore, etc. This is the generation where rates have gone up alarmingly - guys in their early-mid 20's right now. What were THEY doing in their teens? No pitch limits? No off time in the winter? What kind of strength conditioning? That's what might help a klittle bit in figuring it out.

[HERPDERP]

I wonder if increasing the rotation to 6 pitchers would be beneficial to reducing pitching injuries. But that's something that you can't necessarily enforce. MLB could increase the roster to 26 players but I bet everyone would pull a Gibbers and go with a 9-man bullpen.

[G-Snarls]

It is an opinion. Just as my opinion is that arms are basically not built to throw a ball 98MPH. There are a lot opinions out there as to why arm injuries seem to be on the rise.

 

Well that's the basic truth. The elbow ligaments were not designed for this. Pitching is very un natural. Injuries will happen.

 

Now, the question is - what kind of training regimen can help minimize the risk?

 

Train harder and harder and build up stamina? (Ryan)

 

Train less, with longer breaks (Andrews)

 

We don't know. But people are freaked, especially owners and GM's who are watching their star pitchers drop like flies and missing full seasons after TJS.

[connorp]

I wonder if increasing the rotation to 6 pitchers would be beneficial to reducing pitching injuries. But that's something that you can't necessarily enforce. MLB could increase the roster to 26 players but I bet everyone would pull a Gibbers and go with a 9-man bullpen.

 

100 pitches every five days or so as a max really isn't bad. Unlike lower levels, mlb guys don't spend the off-season firing off their best fastballs everyday. It's more about conditioning with them

[KingKat]

Well that's the basic truth. The elbow ligaments were not designed for this. Pitching is very un natural. Injuries will happen.

 

Now, the question is - what kind of training regimen can help minimize the risk?

 

Train harder and harder and build up stamina? (Ryan)

 

Train less, with longer breaks (Andrews)

 

We don't know. But people are freaked, especially owners and GM's who are watching their star pitchers drop like flies and missing full seasons after TJS.

 

Just to make matters worse, it's also a bit naive to think one approach would work for everyone. Genetics no doubt play a role in this.

[leaffie]

Andrews also said that he has been alarmed for the past few years when he operates and sees arms that look like they are 40 on kids that are in their 20's.

[Sammy225]

Just to make matters worse, it's also a bit naive to think one approach would work for everyone. Genetics no doubt play a role in this.

 

Obviously. Arms aren't all the same per say. Some people need more rest, some may need different work out schedule, some might just need to stretch more. There will never be one solid or definite strategy to prevent all these injuries.

[KingKat]

Obviously. Arms aren't all the same per say. Some people need more rest, some may need different work out schedule, some might just need to stretch more. There will never be one solid or definite strategy to prevent all these injuries.

 

Yep, and it's like you can scope these arms all the time and see how things are going. You find out once it's too late.

[HERPDERP]

Other possibilities:

-Bad mechanics

-increased reliance on bigger velocity and breaking pitches, especially the slider

[TheHurl]

it's not that they are throwing to much too early. They are throwing too hard too early (and then too often). Pressure to always throw hard in high school to get the big contract. Pressure on them to pitch in all seasons too.

 

Although there has been a lot of pitchers converted from OF that have had it too. Chances are they were pitchers in high school.

[o2cui2i]

it's not that they are throwing to much too early. They are throwing too hard too early (and then too often). Pressure to always throw hard in high school to get the big contract. Pressure on them to pitch in all seasons too.

 

Although there has been a lot of pitchers converted from OF that have had it too. Chances are they were pitchers in high school.

 

The best athletes in HS play all sports and all positions.

[baseballsss]

Counterpoint: He may have also been a lucky, genetic freak of nature

 

But there were many pitchers before him that did the same thing. Whether they had good careers or not they were still throwing lots of innings and for a long period. I think(without any evidance jmo) that ryans right. But with the money being thrown around these days teams aren't going to stop babying to expirment.

[TDotttt2005]

If the guy's parents named him Tommy John, he was destined from birth to need TJ surgery...Arm overuse as a youngster aside.

[baseballsss]

If the guy's parents named him Tommy John, he was destined from birth to need TJ surgery...Arm overuse as a youngster aside.

 

The surgery is named after him?

[McD]

If the guy's parents named him Tommy John, he was destined from birth to need TJ surgery...Arm overuse as a youngster aside.

 

this is hilarious

[G-Snarls]

this is hilarious

 

Poor Lou Gehrig too, right?? Should have seen it coming!

[TDotttt2005]

Poor Lou Gehrig too, right?? Should have seen it coming!

 

I dont know...Lou Gehrig, I feel, was purely coincidence.

 

All jokes aside, I always heard growing up playing baseball in the early-mid 1990's that no one under 18 should throw a curveball. Strictly fastball and change. If that was the old adage then, and its somehow changed with so much money at stake in the form of signing bonuses, etc. with these high school kids, I can see them using these pitches at an earlier age to get an edge in the eyes of scouts. Its kind of the same thing as steroid use. Take now, get money, deal with consequences later, sorta thing.

 

Another theory I've heard, but no real way to substantiate it, is that pitchers pre-90's and 00's, would just "burn out" or have "dead arm" and retire at earlier ages because TJ surgery was not an option. Sports medicine is clearly not a forte of mine, but from what I've heard, there was no way to differentiate a UCL tear from a generic "arm injury" and even if there was, there was no way to fix it, so players simply retired. So really, there is no spike in arm injuries...its always been the same, but now there is just better diagnosis and better surgical techniques which players opt for, whereas before they'd just retire.