Payroll Neutral

[Gorlak]

Imagine you are AA and you have been told you have hit maximum payroll for the upcoming season. How would you improve the team?

[Angrioter]

Imagine you are AA and you have been told you have hit maximum payroll for the upcoming season. How would you improve the team?

 

http://www.cfic-ccia.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/article9_middle.jpg

[G-Snarls]

http://3j0by72a1bhn38rrij4dkr868b0.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/booze.jpg

[Angrioter]

Imagine you are AA and you have been told you have hit maximum payroll for the upcoming season. How would you improve the team?

 

2015 look better

Ext/Sign Rasmus and Janssen

Exercise Lind and Morrow options

Sign Homer Bailey and/or Shields (Depend of Stroman traded or not)

Sign Denorfia

Sign Cuddyer or Hart

[G-Snarls]

Try and dump Izturis and Happ. Also trade Santos and Janssen for a 2B upgrade (even if there weak) and risky SP.

 

I was about to say similar

 

Trade Santos and Nolin for Franklin (league min)

 

Trade Rasmus, Happ, top 10 prospect for Sale or ?? other 1-2 level starter making < 10M

 

Rid of Izturis is possible use Goins as utility IF.

 

Sign a reasonable veteran IF/OF who can hit lefties

 

Trade Buerhle at the trade deadline for best you can get

Edited December 22, 2013 by G-Snarls

[theblujay]

If we have to try to compete this year:

Trade Rasmus and a reliever for a pitcher.

Trade another reliever for a DH/1B/LF to go with Lind.

Play Gose in center, Goins/Izturis at 2B

 

No Rules:

Trade Jose, Rasmus, 3 relievers, Lind and Buehrle/Dickey for prospects.

Start Nolin and Storman in the rotation.

Goins at 2B

Gose in CF

Sierra in RF

Jimenez at C in June

[Gorlak]

I would argue they should prioritize a starting pitcher and I imagine they wouldn't dump Happ unless another pitcher is brought in first. I would also try and move one of Jansen or Santos and try and sell high on Rasmus.

[Gorlak]

That is way too easy though.

[G-Snarls]

Wow...

 

That was his doomsday scenario. Blowing up the team trading all vets for prospects. That's what a 2014 rebuild would look like.

[G-Snarls]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091224112828/watchmen/images/f/ff/Wickedcoolstuff_2044_179793782.jpg

[theblujay]

That was his doomsday scenario. Blowing up the team trading all vets for prospects. That's what a 2014 rebuild would look like.

 

Yeah, I'd rather blow up this team and starts those guys and see what they can do. We would also have a TON of prospects and maybe some of them would almost be MLB ready.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Yeah, I'd rather blow up this team and starts those guys and see what they can do. We would also have a TON of prospects and maybe some of them would almost be MLB ready.

 

I'm interested in hearing about teams that actually blew up their team and made the playoffs later on, how long they took to do it, and what the key moves were. The reason I say this is I've seen a lot of really bad teams occur after such moves, far more frequent then successes. But which ones are you modelling your idea on ? I know the Marlins did some strange stuff but I'm not sure that's what people are talking about.

[GD]

I'm interested in hearing about teams that actually blew up their team and made the playoffs later on, how long they took to do it, and what the key moves were. The reason I say this is I've seen a lot of really bad teams occur after such moves, far more frequent then successes. But which ones are you modelling your idea on ? I know the Marlins did some strange stuff but I'm not sure that's what people are talking about.

 

The Astros seem to be making that strategy work, as one example of blowing it all up. They were a decent team somewhat recently, weren't they? Then they got rid of Carlos Lee, Roy Oswalt, Hunter Pence, and so on.

[Chappy]

The Astros seem to be making that strategy work, as one example of blowing it all up. They were a decent team somewhat recently, weren't they? Then they got rid of Carlos Lee, Roy Oswalt, Hunter Pence, and so on.

 

You mean the corpses of Lee and Oswalt?

[LunchBox]

I really believe you should never have someone who's past arbitration in your bullpen.

 

+1 Although I like what TB does with the back of their BP.

 

I'd take it a step farther and say teams should be in a constant process of establishing value in relievers, trading them in their ARB eligible years and replacing them with internal options.

[GD]

You mean the corpses of Lee and Oswalt?

 

Lee I get but you need to double check on Oswalt lol. He was sporting a 3.42 ERA, a 3.28 xFIP, had 2.5 fWAR in 129 IP when traded, and was coming off years of 3.0, 3.1 and 4.4 fWAR prior to that. Oswalt was still quite valuable.

[GD]

+1 Although I like what TB does with the back of their BP.

 

I'd take it a step farther and say teams should be in a constant process of establishing value in relievers, trading them in their ARB eligible years and replacing them with internal options.

 

I love how Beane does this.

[theblujay]

I'm interested in hearing about teams that actually blew up their team and made the playoffs later on, how long they took to do it, and what the key moves were. The reason I say this is I've seen a lot of really bad teams occur after such moves, far more frequent then successes. But which ones are you modelling your idea on ? I know the Marlins did some strange stuff but I'm not sure that's what people are talking about.

 

I'm thinking its more about getting value out of players like Jose, Rasmus and our high-value relievers by selling at higher points. This team is going to have a tough time competing the way it is constructed now, so it makes sense to get the highest value for our current assets that we would probably not make the playoffs with.

 

I don't want to see us get nothing out of these guys three years from now with no playoff appearance to shows (or even playoff races).

[Chappy]

Lee I get but you need to double check on Oswalt lol. He was sporting a 3.42 ERA, a 3.28 xFIP, had 2.5 fWAR in 129 IP when traded, and was coming off years of 3.0, 3.1 and 4.4 fWAR prior to that. Oswalt was still quite valuable.

 

He was, but that was his last really good season. They sold at the right time.

[ElNik2013]

The Astros seem to be making that strategy work, as one example of blowing it all up. They were a decent team somewhat recently, weren't they? Then they got rid of Carlos Lee, Roy Oswalt, Hunter Pence, and so on.

 

Astros last 5 seasons:

 

Year W L

2009 74 88

2010 76 86

2011 56 106

2012 55 107

2013 51 111

 

 

They have correctly committed to a rebuild, but have 5 straight losing seasons and will probably make it 6 next year.

 

I doubt Rogers has the patience to make this type of commitment given that they own the sports channel that broadcasts their games and need to provide content that people want to watch.

[o2cui2i]

http://3j0by72a1bhn38rrij4dkr868b0.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/booze.jpg

 

nice...

[Dick_Pole]

Astros last 5 seasons:

 

Year W L

2009 74 88

2010 76 86

2011 56 106

2012 55 107

2013 51 111

 

 

They have correctly committed to a rebuild, but have 5 straight losing seasons and will probably make it 6 next year.

 

I doubt Rogers has the patience to make this type of commitment given that they own the sports channel that broadcasts their games and need to provide content that people want to watch.

 

I don't know why someone would be calling that the correct way to do anything. I can that an embarrassment and running a franchise into the ground. I don't know what people's obsession is that you have to be ultra-terrible to rebuild. I would never in a million years want the Blue Jays to do that. There's teams like the Braves and Cardinals whose version of a rebuild is a couple of seasons at 75 or 80 wins and they're right back into contention again. You know...teams that actually know how to draft and build baseball teams...not the f***ing Houston Astros.

[Chappy]

I don't know why someone would be calling that the correct way to do anything. I can that an embarrassment and running a franchise into the ground. I don't know what people's obsession is that you have to be ultra-terrible to rebuild. I would never in a million years want the Blue Jays to do that. There's teams like the Braves and Cardinals whose version of a rebuild is a couple of seasons at 75 or 80 wins and they're right back into contention again. You know...teams that actually know how to draft and build baseball teams...not the f***ing Houston Astros.

 

For some around here, there is no alternative. Everyone had their own opinion, but I tend to agree with yours. Even a terrible team shouldn't see 5 years of laughable performance and counting.

[GD]

Wasn't Wade *trying* to compete until 2010ish, Phillies style? They were trying to be good. And then Wade and Lunhow sold off their useful pieces like Berkman, Oswalt, Lee, Pence, etc and legitimately started rebuilding.

 

I'm not calling the Astros pathetic right now because it's a whole new regime, much different from the Wade years. Love what Lunhow is doing in their rebuild.

[Chappy]

Wasn't Wade *trying* to compete until 2010ish, Phillies style? They were trying to be good. And then Wade and Lunhow sold off their useful pieces like Berkman, Oswalt, Lee, Pence, etc and legitimately started rebuilding.

 

I'm not calling the Astros pathetic right now because it's a whole new regime, much different from the Wade years. Love what Lunhow is doing in their rebuild.

 

They are headed in the right direction. That being said, I don't really believe a team needs to be that bad to succeed. It's an easy cop out to tank year after year, but to each their own.

[Abomination]

You have to wonder if some of the bigger market owners see what Oakland and the Rays do by necessity, and get caught up with thinking about all the money they can make (not to mention all they rake in during the low payroll times of the actual rebuild where payroll is less than they get in revenue sharing before selling any tv rights or seats). Then when they see the fan support start to dwindle, they panic and force the GM to win now at all expense. Rinse and repeat.

[Chappy]

You have to wonder if some of the bigger market owners see what Oakland and the Rays do by necessity, and get caught up with thinking about all the money they can make (not to mention all they rake in during the low payroll times of the actual rebuild where payroll is less than they get in revenue sharing before selling any tv rights or seats). Then when they see the fan support start to dwindle, they panic and force the GM to win now at all expense. Rinse and repeat.

 

Markets play a significant role. The sad part is when bigger market believe they should play by smaller market rules.

[ElNik2013]

I don't know why someone would be calling that the correct way to do anything. I can that an embarrassment and running a franchise into the ground. I don't know what people's obsession is that you have to be ultra-terrible to rebuild. I would never in a million years want the Blue Jays to do that. There's teams like the Braves and Cardinals whose version of a rebuild is a couple of seasons at 75 or 80 wins and they're right back into contention again. You know...teams that actually know how to draft and build baseball teams...not the f***ing Houston Astros.

 

 

The Astros had several years of contention, but the nucleus of those teams was aging and they had given it a final go in 2009 and 2010 so I think they correctly decided to rebuild. I certainly don't think this applies to every franchise. I said they correctly decided to rebuild, meaning that it was better to do that instead of spending the kind of money it would've taken to make that aging team a winning one.

 

In the 5 years prior to the years I listed, the Astros made the playoffs twice and in 2008, they had an 86-75 record so I can see why they might've given it another shot in 2009 and 2010, but after that, they just decided to commit to a full rebuild, I don't see the issue.

 

I really don't see where I suggested they're a model franchise.

[Atothe]

I think a full rebuild would be stupid for a franchise like the jays but the yankees hell f***ing yes. Their core is old and unreliable at this point. They need to be absolutely s*** for 3-4 years in a row

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I don't know why someone would be calling that the correct way to do anything. I can that an embarrassment and running a franchise into the ground. I don't know what people's obsession is that you have to be ultra-terrible to rebuild. I would never in a million years want the Blue Jays to do that. There's teams like the Braves and Cardinals whose version of a rebuild is a couple of seasons at 75 or 80 wins and they're right back into contention again. You know...teams that actually know how to draft and build baseball teams...not the f***ing Houston Astros.

 

Astros remind me of when the Expos were run into the ground and when Interbrew had control of the Jays. Braves have always spent when they need to and Jays used to operate very similar to them in the glory years. I still blame Interbrew for destroying our team at one point. Takes years and some luck to regain traction, attendance is only now starting to recover. And as some have said, a recent history of losing isn't great for attracting free agents.

 

Jays from 1977-1993 were one of the best run franchises in baseball. So it can be done.