Hardball Times: Marcus Stroman - Mythbusting Machine

[Frag]

Great article and response by Kyle Boddy on the utter lunacy of scouts railing on Stroman (ie. preferring him as a reliever over a starter) mainly due to his height.

[Nox]

It's killing me that I can't find the definitive paper (IMO) as to why short pitchers are at a disadvantage. It was from a physics Phd and his argument was entirely based on optics (the field of science, not the synonym for general perception). It's all about the plane created by tall pitchers and the lack thereof for shorter guys. The effective velo due to the way our eyes function is influenced greatly by this (the same is true for extreme side armers).

 

I was fully of the opinion that short pitchers are unfairly judged but this made me reconsider. I've almost done a complete 180 and I'm very leery of small guys.

 

The funny thing is, the traditional reasons why scouts hate short pitchers are almost completely ********.

 

I really wish I could find where this paper was published. I've looked on and off for probably 6 months now and can't find it. Argh.

[John_Havok]

Great article and response by Kyle Boddy on the utter lunacy of scouts railing on Stroman (ie. preferring him as a reliever over a starter) mainly due to his height.

 

"Kyle Boddy is the owner of Driveline Baseball and Driveline Biomechanics Research, both in Seattle, Washington. At his facility, he's melded statistical analysis, strength & conditioning, prehab/rehab, and advanced biomechanical analysis concepts to develop improved efficiency, durability, and fastball velocity of baseball pitchers. He is the author of The Dynamic Pitcher, a comprehensive book and video set dedicated to developing elite youth baseball pitchers."

 

And if the Jays had any brains, they'd be hiring guys like this to be a part if the organization. Biomechanics is still a largely unexplored area of baseball scouting and development.

[Laika]

It's killing me that I can't find the definitive paper (IMO) as to why short pitchers are at a disadvantage. It was from a physics Phd and his argument was entirely based on optics (the field of science, not the synonym for general perception). It's all about the plane created by tall pitchers and the lack thereof for shorter guys. The effective velo due to the way our eyes function is influenced greatly by this (the same is true for extreme side armers).

 

I was fully of the opinion that short pitchers are unfairly judged but this made me reconsider. I've almost done a complete 180 and I'm very leery of small guys.

 

The funny thing is, the traditional reasons why scouts hate short pitchers are almost completely ********.

 

I really wish I could find where this paper was published. I've looked on and off for probably 6 months now and can't find it. Argh.

 

but what about THIS http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter

 

A short pitcher could theoretically cancel out the theoretical optical negatives of being short be theoretically being inherently better at other things, like such as controlling his shorter limbs a bit better and repeating his delivery more effectively, in theory.

[kyleboddy]

And if the Jays had any brains, they'd be hiring guys like this to be a part if the organization. Biomechanics is still a largely unexplored area of baseball scouting and development.

 

Too kind, really.

 

For those unaware, my father was born in Toronto. I am Canadian by birthright. Makes it easy to obtain a work visa, or so I'm told...

[GD]

Too kind, really.

 

For those unaware, my father was born in Toronto. I am Canadian by birthright. Makes it easy to obtain a work visa, or so I'm told...

 

Welcome to the forum! Excellent article, really enjoyed it.

[Frag]

Too kind, really.

 

For those unaware, my father was born in Toronto. I am Canadian by birthright. Makes it easy to obtain a work visa, or so I'm told...

 

Welcome! I really liked your article. I've been trying to convince people that they are looking too much into Stroman's height when determining his future MLB role. Glad his mechanics seem to show he can make it as a starter.

[TheHurl]

I remember when a few people first started talking about Stroman (on the old board) as the Jays first rounder. Despite being a Duke fan I immediately scoffed calling him a reliever. Then I watched him pitch, against Clemson, and I couldn't get how he threw so hard without being a true max effort guy. I was immediately a Stroman guy after that. I've been pretty negative about certain short pitchers (a midget reliever now in KC comes to mind), but good mechanics is at least something I understand...the physics of it all I do not. Thanks for breaking down the mechanics Kyle.

 

Is your injury projection system available to the public? You've delved into some fascinating stuff that should be of interest to both fans and F.O.s

[ace3113]

Welcome to the site KB. I was a big fan of Stroman's for a long time. I really wanted the Blue Jays to draft him and was elated when they did. I wrote this about him and a bunch of other guys about seven months prior to the draft. He was just coming off a solid sophomore season and an amazing summer with team USA. Granted this was long before the draft so I wanted him even though it was as just a reliever, and guys like Correa and Almora were still being ranked in our range. I think I hit on a lot of my picks though, not to toot my own horn (he says as he blows dust off finger nails and wipes them on his shirt)

 

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=325&f=2039&t=7786165&p=6

 

Posted: 11/2/2011 3:59 PM

 

The early reports suggest there is good up the middle talent in this draft (AA must be salivating) with talented shortstops who should stay at short, led by Marrero and Russell (but look out for Correa), solid catching talent led by Zunino and Elander, and legit five tool outfielders (many of whom should be able to play center.

 

Right now from the video I've seen and the scouting reports I've read I'm really high on the two Puerto Rican shortstops Carlos Correa and Jesmuel Valentin. Both appear to have the tools to remain at short, though Correa is 6'3 and possibly growing. Correa will hit for more power (reminds me of Manny Machado or A-Rod without the leg kick), while Valentin is more of a line drive hitter, and will most likely hit for more average and contact. That said, I love Correa.

 

I also like what I've seen from Albert Almora a high school outfielder. Love the combination of tools and makeup. Speed, plus defensive center fielder, high contact rate.

 

Rio Ruiz a third baseman with the defensive tools to stay here, bat/lefty swing compared to A-Gon, little bit of contact issues, but I think they can be ironed out. Pretty swing, YouTube home run at Dodger Stadium.

 

The three other players I like are Gavin Chechinni: good bloodlines, solid defender at short, would be a plus at 2nd, plus bat and plus plate coverage.

 

OF Jesse Winker, all bat guy, but a great bat with the potential to hit for power and average. Left handed, good patience and plate control, a batting cage rat, has a strong arm to play right field. Good body, 6'3 frame.

 

Have to add HS, OF David Dahl to my list. 6'2 great tools and makeup, pretty polished at plate.

 

Marcus Stroman, reliever from Duke. AA isn't high on small pitchers, or players who project to be relievers, but I would love to draft this guy in the comp round. He's only 5'9 but has a plus fastball (93-95) and a plus-plus slider which he has plus command on. Compared to Tom Gordon (but with slider instead of curve), also Kelvim Escobar. Love this kid. Could probably be a straight to big leagues guy. He could be our closer as early as next year. I predict he'll be better than Drew Storen.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ace3113

[GD]

Doesn't Dahl have makeup issues?

 

Aside from that, damn you hit on a lot of those.

[ace3113]

Doesn't Dahl have makeup issues?

 

Aside from that, damn you hit on a lot of those.

 

He did apparently pout when he was dropped down a level, but he's a kid. It's not like he has drug problems (see. Josh Hamilton). Very talented kid still. I like him more than Austin Meadows for what it's worth.

[kyleboddy]

Is your injury projection system available to the public? You've delved into some fascinating stuff that should be of interest to both fans and F.O.s

 

It is not. That's data and a process I want to keep locked up since I think it's pretty valuable.

 

Our lab is pretty cool; we have four high-speed cameras that are synchronized together as well as another six more that are used for piecemeal analysis, including a pair that you can connect to via smartphone and download video from directly. All of this and more can be built at your MLB team's location of choice. No takers so far, though I train a fair number of professional pitchers on my own (Trevor Bauer, Ryan Buchter, Caleb Cotham, etc).

[TheHurl]

It's all really fascinating stuff to me. It probably just takes having one person you coach return from an injury faster, like what happened with Evans and the Jays after Delabar and the weighted ball stuff and suddenly the jobs offers will come in. In the end I just love hearing old scouts and pitchers dismiss any training that's different. I heard a guy pitch his "elite" program to a parent at a tournament I was working at. He guaranteed that their kid would never develop elbow trouble because he doesn't ever let a pitcher throw from more than 60 feet, just to compete against the long toss supporters. Well the Rainiers aren't on my list of MiLB teams I'll be seeing in the next couple years but I'm ever there I'd love to check out your facility.

[kyleboddy]

It's all really fascinating stuff to me. It probably just takes having one person you coach return from an injury faster, like what happened with Evans and the Jays after Delabar and the weighted ball stuff and suddenly the jobs offers will come in. In the end I just love hearing old scouts and pitchers dismiss any training that's different. I heard a guy pitch his "elite" program to a parent at a tournament I was working at. He guaranteed that their kid would never develop elbow trouble because he doesn't ever let a pitcher throw from more than 60 feet, just to compete against the long toss supporters. Well the Rainiers aren't on my list of MiLB teams I'll be seeing in the next couple years but I'm ever there I'd love to check out your facility.

 

I'm not holding my breath, to be honest. I've had interviews with multiple MLB GMs and while the stat nerds love the pitch of developing velocity / reducing the chance of injury, there's a filter/block somewhere in player development. It's just how it is. I even did some math on what it's worth to a team to develop velocity in their castaways (cough cough, Scott Kazmir anyone?) and showed my work:

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012/05/12/making-the-sabermetric-argument-for-increasing-fastball-velocity/

 

But it didn't resonate.

 

And guys like Trevor Bauer (not widely liked by professional coaches, I'll admit) sing my praises from the high heavens, and Ryan Buchter posted the best strikeout rate by any reliever in AAA last year after doing my weighted ball program, and we have multiple Perfect Game 10-rated players (for whatever that's worth; both guys should be high draft picks which matters more), and, and, and...

 

Baseball is a ridiculously slow-moving sport. That's just something that I've learned to accept and get over. All I can do is advance the science and development of my programs and not focus on the nebulous end goal that has no defined criteria to achieve. It frustrates my wife to no end why I haven't gotten an offer despite MLB GMs flying to see my place and meeting with higher-ups all over the place and MLB coaches recommending me for jobs.

 

It doesn't frustrate me THAT much. We are in the dark ages in player development; we are so far behind. We are worse off today than baseball ops departments were in the 1970s when Bill James and Pete Palmer were just beginning to give birth to linear weights and win shares. And when you think of it that way and see how long it took for teams to embrace sabermetrics... well, it's hard to get too angry.

[grackle]

We have to remember that these statistics are a law of averages. There is always an outlier and maybe he is it.