Alex Anthopoulos Vs JP Ricciardi: 2013 edition

[Angrioter]

Undoubtedly, Alex was the favorite of the vast majority (bluejaysmessageboard.com) 1 to 2 years ago, we called him "the ninja", but things take a turn of 180 degrees.......Bad drafts, awful trades, horrible scouting talents and unfair dismissal of workers who run a decent job.

 

Who do you think did a better job?

 

Nota: Please, evaluate the procedure and philosophy of approaching the game, not the results (standing)

[JugglingPitches]

Let's face it, most of us were excited about "the trade" last winter. Reyes alone had me jacked. We gave up a lot but we were all excited that we were finally "going for it"...I might not have had the balls to make that trade but AA took a shot and if it had worked out we wouldn't be worried about the prospects we let go of.

 

I will say this, his biggest mistake was hiring Gibbons. Gibbons himself told him it was a mistake. It was clear coming out of Spring Training that the team wasn't prepared. His other mistake was keeping JPA at the big league level when he's been running his mouth and making enemies out of everyone, in the midst of the worst season I can ever recall any big league player having. He's talked his way out of town while playing his way out of town. Between the coaching and the catching, I have to wonder how much better the pitching could have been if handled properly.

 

In any event...JP Ricciardi was almost as unlikeable as JP Arencibia. He was arrogant, bashed players in the media, was unprofessional and no one liked dealing with him. His "big splash" off season didn't work out either (Scott Rolen, BJ Ryan, etc)...difference is he got them as free agents without blowing up the farm.

 

It's a close call but based on everything, I still think AA is the better GM. I also think that's not really saying much because JP was awful.

[Angrioter]

Let's face it, most of us were excited about "the trade" last winter. Reyes alone had me jacked. We gave up a lot but we were all excited that we were finally "going for it"...I might not have had the balls to make that trade but AA took a shot and if it had worked out we wouldn't be worried about the prospects we let go of.

 

I will say this, his biggest mistake was hiring Gibbons. Gibbons himself told him it was a mistake. It was clear coming out of Spring Training that the team wasn't prepared. His other mistake was keeping JPA at the big league level when he's been running his mouth and making enemies out of everyone, in the midst of the worst season I can ever recall any big league player having. He's talked his way out of town while playing his way out of town. Between the coaching and the catching, I have to wonder how much better the pitching could have been if handled properly.

 

In any event...JP Ricciardi was almost as unlikeable as JP Arencibia. He was arrogant, bashed players in the media, was unprofessional and no one liked dealing with him. His "big splash" off season didn't work out either (Scott Rolen, BJ Ryan, etc)...difference is he got them as free agents without blowing up the farm.

 

It's a close call but based on everything, I still think AA is the better GM. I also think that's not really saying much because JP was awful.

 

To where do you think we go with Alex?

Has he the compass?

[Olerud363]

J.P Ricciardi was probably better.

 

As anyone who reads my posts knows I believe in on base percentage and young players. I hate politics. J.P. was a guy who cared, not for his close friends, or about politics, but about the needs of fans like me, and realized that doing right for the intelligent fans was the best way to produce a winning team. Sure he had his flaws, no one is perfect.

 

What I like about J.P.

 

- believed in on base percentage, not afraid to use that dirty word

- believed in young players, even if they weren't his own, Ash left him some bing... and he used it. Wells, Halladay, Rios, Orlando Hudson, Erik Hinske, Chris Woodward, Josh Phelps, Felipe Lopez, all given jobs. Used years one and two to evaluate, not for "Cito retirement tour".

- good at finding/developing off the radar guys, Frank Cat, Reed Johnson, Zaun had success, later Scutaro.

- avoided players like J.P. Arencibia who had the potential to tank the offense with a .250 obp. When faced with Kevin Cash or Zaun?? Zaun. When faced with Alex Gonzales or Chris Woodward/Lopez... Woodward/Lopez.

 

- drafted and brought up HIll, Lind, Jansenn, Marcum, Romero, Snider traded for EE and Bautista. There was some talent for AA to work with. Some of it collapsed in value. Some of it excelled.

 

- did not play politics and smoozala... fired Buck Martinez after 30 games, despite Buck being a franchise "fixture"... no easy exit for Buck.

 

He had his flaws. But a guy who did right for the fans in a lot of ways.

[JugglingPitches]

AA has had four years and has yet to build a team as good as the 2008-09 Blue Jays that he tore down. GMs are evaluated on results, where are the results that make you say AA was a better GM? JP built some really really good teams.

 

Ahem...

 

Nota: Please, evaluate the procedure and philosophy of approaching the game, not the results (standing)

[JugglingPitches]

To where do you think we go with Alex?

Has he the compass?

 

He needs to go, and we need to hire a GM with a history of building a winner. Unfortunately I can't think of one that's available at the moment.

[NorthOf49]

Just think about where AA would be without Bautista and EE. They might have lost 100 games this year and AA would easily be out of a job.

 

The only good, cost-effective player AA has acquired in four (!) seasons is Rasmus (and maybe Yunel, but look at how that worked out). And he's only had one good year with the Blue Jays.

[Olerud363]

AA has had four years and has yet to build a team as good as the 2008-09 Blue Jays that he tore down. GMs are evaluated on results, where are the results that make you say AA was a better GM? JP built some really really good teams.

 

The interesting thing is that 2009 we were actually much closer then after 2012. "Mutiny" really messed all that up. Get the clubhouse together then bring back Scutaro, Halladay, and Rolin (only Scutaro was a free agent)... add the all-in pieces (remember you would have Snider to work with as a trade chip).

 

Instead AA gives us

 

- Cito retirement tour, Farrell training for Red sox, phony "all-in" to please suits. The AA era is not for the real fans, it's for suits and casuals, really for one fat "beestly" casual.

[JugglingPitches]

Just think about where AA would be without Bautista and EE. They might have lost 100 games this year and AA would easily be out of a job.

 

The only good, cost-effective player AA has acquired in four (!) seasons is Rasmus (and maybe Yunel, but look at how that worked out). And he's only had one good year with the Blue Jays.

 

He also unloaded the Vernon Wells contract, traded Thames for Delabar, Marcum for Lawrie...

[JugglingPitches]

Thames for Delabar is wiped out by losing Farquhar and David Carpenter, both of whom were better this year. Every team shuffles relievers around every year and ends up with a couple dominant guys... acquiring a middle reliever can't be a bullet point on a GM's resume.

 

You could also make the case that Vernon Wells was on Tony Reagins' stupidity, not AA's genius.

 

In any case, the team has a worse 40-man roster than they did when AA took over. That's the bottom line, and it's unacceptable.

 

I agree, but if we're going to crucify him, let's do it for the right reasons.

 

When he made the trade with Miami, we were worried it wasn't going to be approved because it was such a fleecing by AA. The city was buzzing about the Jays all winter. At the time it seemed like the best trade in Blue Jays history. It didn't work out, and now AA has to take it on the chin, but at least he had the balls to try it.

 

Unfortunately this is the part where he enters desperation mode and instead of making logical trades that are good for the organization, he's more likely to trade more prospects to plug more holes and probably end up with the same result next year in an effort to save his job.

[Angrioter]

He also unloaded the Vernon Wells contract, traded Thames for Delabar, Marcum for Lawrie...

 

We are going round in circles with him. I don't see significant progress and the talent throughout the organization isn't at the level of the league.

[JugglingPitches]

We are going round in circles with him. I don't see significant progress and the talent throughout the organization isn't at the level of the league.

 

The results weren't there, but again, when the moves were made, the Jays were the favorite to win the World Series for god's sake. His mistake was hiring Gibbons and stroking JPA's cock like a Boston Pizza waitress.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. But the thread says we are not evaluating based on results. If we evaluate on results it's not even a question, JP Ricciardi's record is clearly much better.

[Angrioter]

The results weren't there, but again, when the moves were made, the Jays were the favorite to win the World Series for god's sake. His mistake was hiring Gibbons and stroking JPA's cock like a Boston Pizza waitress.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. But the thread says we are not evaluating based on results. If we evaluate on results it's not even a question, JP Ricciardi's record is clearly much better.

 

I'm talking about the talent of the entire organization and we're screwed, Within 2 years we will be s***.

[JugglingPitches]

I'm talking about the talent of the entire organization and we're screwed, Within 2 years we will be s***.

 

I think we're s*** right now.

[Angrioter]

I think we're s*** right now.

 

If we're s*** now and in the near future then.......why do you think that Alex has been better than JP?

[JugglingPitches]

If we're s*** now and in the near future then.......why do you think that Alex has been better than JP?

 

Again...

 

Nota: Please, evaluate the procedure and philosophy of approaching the game, not the results (standing)

 

JP was a dick, called out players in the media, some of which weren't even Blue Jays (Adam Dunn, who wouldn't sign with the Jays so JP blasted him), originally hired Gibbons, signed Wells to a ridiculous contract, and while I like the moneyball philosophy, I think most people were happy when he got canned because he had worn out his welcome here big time. Plus, if he was so great, why isn't he another team's GM yet?

 

Bottom line, they both suck, but at least AA has a good reputation around the league. You're basically asking us to pick the tallest midget though.

[Angrioter]

Again...

 

 

 

JP was a dick, called out players in the media, some of which weren't even Blue Jays (Adam Dunn, who wouldn't sign with the Jays so JP blasted him), originally hired Gibbons, signed Wells to a ridiculous contract, and while I like the moneyball philosophy, I think most people were happy when he got canned because he had worn out his welcome here big time. Plus, if he was so great, why isn't he another team's GM yet?

 

Bottom line, they both suck, but at least AA has a good reputation around the league. You're basically asking us to pick the tallest midget though.

 

JP wasn't good, Alex has been worse.

[GNick]

I voted for Riccardi because this season was the season from hell. But there isn't much difference in them

[GNick]

Again...

 

 

 

JP was a dick, called out players in the media, some of which weren't even Blue Jays (Adam Dunn, who wouldn't sign with the Jays so JP blasted him), originally hired Gibbons, signed Wells to a ridiculous contract, and while I like the moneyball philosophy, I think most people were happy when he got canned because he had worn out his welcome here big time. Plus, if he was so great, why isn't he another team's GM yet?

 

Bottom line, they both suck, but at least AA has a good reputation around the league. You're basically asking us to pick the tallest midget though.

 

Some of that isn't true. Riccardi said on radio he wasn't interested in Dunn because he didn't love baseball...intensity level. Never did try to sign him. Wells contract was Godfrey's doings. Riccardi wanted to trade him. AA will face similar choice with Rasmus.

 

Riccardi was a bad GM. He was narrow minded, never valued speed playing on turf, couldn't manufacture runs, never had a clue how to run a farm system though. Wasn't much in it when he left. But he never did some things put on here.

 

Riccardi did make some great trades....both Bautista and Encarnacion he acquired for next to nil.

Edited October 8, 2013 by GNick

[kgm1]

I can't believe the people who voted for JPR . Guy was an arogant ignorant ******* who gutted a respected scouting dept and thought he was the only guy who could judge talent. Ran our farm system into the depths of ineptitude and basically told us the fan base that we were stupid canadians who had no clue about baseball..

 

I don't agree with AA gutting our minor leagues but he at least built one. I also believe Rogers and Beeston pushed these moves . I don't think AA would have done it had it been his choice .

 

Had everyone stayed healthy and played up to expectations ,we were in the playoffs most would be calling AA a hero . If you guys want a scapegoat get Beeston and the injury God

[Sammy225]

Hard to say. AA build a top 5 farm team, and when it was time for him to transition into a play off contender he fell apart and now we have no farm and are still out of the playoffs.

 

JP he was more of an all or nothing kind of guy which he put together some "solid" seasons but still no playoffs and never a thought at all about the farm system much it seemed.

 

Not going to vote on this one just pointing observations lol.

[Sorrow]

Again...

 

 

 

JP was a dick, called out players in the media, some of which weren't even Blue Jays (Adam Dunn, who wouldn't sign with the Jays so JP blasted him), originally hired Gibbons, signed Wells to a ridiculous contract, and while I like the moneyball philosophy, I think most people were happy when he got canned because he had worn out his welcome here big time. Plus, if he was so great, why isn't he another team's GM yet?

 

Bottom line, they both suck, but at least AA has a good reputation around the league. You're basically asking us to pick the tallest midget though.

 

JP was against signing Wells to a long term contract, he was pro-trading him to the Dodgers for Kemp and Billingsly, it was ownership who signed Wells if my recollection of the events at the time is correct.

[Sorrow]

I'm voting for JPR over AA, though it is a really close thing.

 

I feel like both have pros and cons like anyone, and both have been royally f***ed by ownership (Wells signing on JPR by Godfrey instead of trading him to LAD for the rumoured Kemp and Bills package) and AA has been f***ed by the compete now instead of continuing a steady rebuild of the organization.

 

In an ideal world we'd have AA as the GM, running the scouting department for pre-draft and international talent while dealing with the major league team and the media and JPR as an assistant GM looking for players people have given up on (Bautista, Zaun, Encarnacion, etc.) as well as looking through the minors for guys that can contribute at the MLB level, things that he was really good at.

[Clojojo]

2011-2013 Anthopolous single handedly destroyed all of JPs netted picks from his players

I find it laughable people try and defend AA early on. He was GIVEN halladay to trade for players and what did he get

Half a Dickey

Drabek and Gose

what a f***ing shitshow

also how many of those JP players turned into comp picks? syndargaard? nicolino? he was given these players. any draft choices he made on his own terms have totally s*** the bed, see mcguire, no show on beede and stroman whos a ped baby. ALL of our good players today where aquired by JP. EE, bautista, janssen etc... He had a 140 million dollar payroll and we barely won 70 games. JP is a f***ing saint compared to the koolaid man

[GeorgiaPeach]

He needs to go, and we need to hire a GM with a history of building a winner. Unfortunately I can't think of one that's available at the moment.

 

Shakes head.....And we need a manager with an extensive history of Championships and is loved by all....oh wait there aren't any.

 

Why do people suggest sh*t if they don't have an answer.

[GeorgiaPeach]

His "big splash" off season didn't work out either (Scott Rolen, BJ Ryan, etc)...difference is he got them as free agents without blowing up the farm.

 

Rolen was a free agent? Interesting.

[GD]

Ricciardi for me.

[Sammy225]

Rolen was a free agent? Interesting.

 

Troy Glaus disagrees.

[Sorrow]

Troy Glaus disagrees.

 

I'm still amazed that we got Rolen for an injured and degrading Glaus, and then got EE, Stewart and Roenike for a hurting Rolen.

[GeorgiaPeach]

......and basically told us the fan base that we were stupid canadians who had no clue about baseball.

 

When you look at the entire fanbase and compare it against its 29 peers, JP was bang on IMO.

 

"I don't agree with AA gutting our minor leagues but he at least built one. I also believe Rogers and Beeston pushed these moves . I don't think AA would have done it had it been his choice ."

 

If that's the case and Alex had no say in what happened then he should spitefully bury the farm and go all-in leaving Beeston and Rogers holding the bag of sh*t at the end.