Josh Donaldson passed Miggy in WAR

[theblujay]

Less than a season. A slash line takes like 500 PA to stabilize.

 

Ok. All I was doing was pointing out a possibly flaw in WPA

[Boxcar]

Whole load of baloney based on an extremely flawed statistic. The only advantage Trout has is age. If they were the same age, most teams would want Cabrera because he's a truly historical hitter. In fact, the Angels are nowhere near a playoff team this season with Trout, whereas Cabrera has made significant easily illustrated input into several playoff teams.

 

Its actually funny seeing the absolute lunacy that some of you display just because some flawed stat is leading you on. Go ahead scream it out as many times as you want, it's a completely horseshit theory.

 

The arrogance is outstanding. Arrogant and misinformed are a dreamy combination.

[Boxcar]

The whole concept of WAR is flawed. Aggregating disparate items together by summing them is rarely a good practice.

 

How about you explain yourself and put your shiny degree to work by showing actual proof for your strong opinions?

[EdelweissBouquet]

You could have farted in your own hand and then smelled it, and you would've come off as smarter than you did by typing that.

 

 

Here dumbo.

 

[EdelweissBouquet]

Take out Trout and Angels would lose more games than Detroit would lose. Trout is the clear MVP. If they switched teams, Detroit would have 2-3 more wins and the Angels would have 2-3 less. Team should not matter.

 

Stick to the facts.

Fact # 1.. you have no idea how many less games the tigers would have won without cabrera.

Fact#2 Angels with or without trout,misses the playoffs this year. He failed during the 2013 regular season to help his team achieve it's goal..which is making the playoffs.All the angels

failed,this is baseball, which happens to be a TEAM sport, so no angel should win a mvp award.

Some here have the need to boil everything down to numbers,if it can't be done..just make it up.

 

What does MVP mean, most valuable to himself, to the league < cackles> <-- is this even possible, most valuable to the fans, who draws the most fans, <-- how do u even compute

this, ask each fan which player they came out to see, make a stat.+6.87 fan attraction !

The MVP has to be the player who helps his team more than any other, succeed in reaching its goal..PERIOD.

[G-Snarls]

Trout helped his team reach its goal (the playoffs) more than Cabrera. Whether or not the Angels reached their goal is irrelevant in this case, because baseball is a team sport.

 

Trout can only bat in one of every nine Angels PAs, and he can't be expected to field more than one position. You can't carry your team to the playoffs. And if you could, Trout came closest. It's not his fault the other 24 guys didn't help much.

 

Albert Pujols - LVP?

[G-Snarls]

Nah, I'd give it to JP. Pujols was at least an above-average hitter in his 99 games.

 

Sure. Few players cost a team more wins than JPA.

 

Pujols not quite as bad as I thought this year (.258/.330/.437) but they obviously expected a lot better than that

[G-Snarls]

I tried to bet BTS last year that Pujols would have a higher OPS in 2013 than he did in 2012. I'm glad he didn't take the bet.

[jays_fever]

TroelweissBouquet;128756]Stick to the facts.

Fact # 1.. you have no idea how many less games the tigers would have won without cabrera.

Fact#2 Angels with or without trout,misses the playoffs this year. He failed during the 2013 regular season to help his team achieve it's goal..which is making the playoffs.All the angels

failed,this is baseball, which happens to be a TEAM sport, so no angel should win a mvp award.

Some here have the need to boil everything down to numbers,if it can't be done..just make it up.

 

What does MVP mean, most valuable to himself, to the league < cackles> <-- is this even possible, most valuable to the fans, who draws the most fans, <-- how do u even compute

this, ask each fan which player they came out to see, make a stat.+6.87 fan attraction !

The MVP has to be the player who helps his team more than any other, succeed in reaching its goal..PERIOD.

 

Trout was responsible for his team winning more games..the actual facylt is that you're an ignorant dumbass who I'm surprised even knows how to operate a computet

[theblujay]

Do you know what you mean?

 

Do you really want me to answer this? Here you go: By intangibles I mean things like clubhouse presence, leadership, team chemistry, relationship with coaches/fans, character/makeup...ect.

[Boxcar]

Do you really want me to answer this? Here you go: By intangibles I mean things like clubhouse presence, leadership, team chemistry, relationship with coaches/fans, character/makeup...ect.

 

Do you know how much those things contribute to a team winning games? If so, how much? How many more games would the Jays have lost without Mark DeRosa CLUBHOUZZZ PRESENTS-ing it up?

[Boxcar]

Do you really want me to answer this? Here you go: By intangibles I mean things like clubhouse presence, leadership, team chemistry, relationship with coaches/fans, character/makeup...ect.

 

Character and makeup: Miguel Cabrera receives a DUI almost every single offseason. He is always out of shape. His first guess as to what happened in the first meeting of him and a new pitcher teammate is "I HEET A HOWM RAWN?!"

 

Strong intangibles.

 

Added: Barry Bonds was undoubtedly a top 5 player in the history of the sport. No one liked him. His teammates didn't, he had a terrible relationship with fans and media, he kept to himself so he didn't lead anybody, since everyone disliked him there was a rift in team chemistry...

 

From 1993-2007, the Giants made the playoffs four times, including a 7 game WS appearance. They won 90+ games 7 times.

[Angrioter]

Do you really want me to answer this? Here you go: By intangibles I mean things like clubhouse presence, leadership, team chemistry, relationship with coaches/fans, character/makeup...ect.

 

Do you know how much those things contribute to a team winning games? If so, how much? How many more games would the Jays have lost without Mark DeRosa CLUBHOUZZZ PRESENTS-ing it up?

 

Intangibles = Runs

 

f***ing NOOOOOOO

[jays_fever]

Character and makeup: Miguel Cabrera receives a DUI almost every single offseason. He is always out of shape. His first guess as to what happened in the first meeting of him and a new pitcher teammate is "I HEET A HOWM RAWN?!"

 

Strong intangibles.

 

Added: Barry Bonds was undoubtedly a top 5 player in the history of the sport. No one liked him. His teammates didn't, he had a terrible relationship with fans and media, he kept to himself so he didn't lead anybody, since everyone disliked him there was a rift in team chemistry...

 

From 1993-2007, the Giants made the playoffs four times, including a 7 game WS appearance. They won 90+ games 7 times.

 

Out of all the major team sports leagues, baseball is by far the most individualistic one there is. The whole thing about "gelling together" is such horsecrap. How are players supposed to gel, string their hits together better?

[theblujay]

Character and makeup: Miguel Cabrera receives a DUI almost every single offseason. He is always out of shape. His first guess as to what happened in the first meeting of him and a new pitcher teammate is "I HEET A HOWM RAWN?!"

 

Strong intangibles.

 

Added: Barry Bonds was undoubtedly a top 5 player in the history of the sport. No one liked him. His teammates didn't, he had a terrible relationship with fans and media, he kept to himself so he didn't lead anybody, since everyone disliked him there was a rift in team chemistry...

 

From 1993-2007, the Giants made the playoffs four times, including a 7 game WS appearance. They won 90+ games 7 times.

 

I originally said I think you guys underestimate things like intangibles. And here you are doing it again. You tried to disprove what I'm saying by showing that two legendary players who weren't great teammates were on successful teams. I'm not talking about Cabrera, I'm talking about everyone. Those things I listed do matter, who knows what the how many runs it adds to the team. Who cares? We don't have to shove everything into stats, especially when it hard to quantify the effect.

[GD]

especially when it hard to quantify the effect.

 

Hard? It's not hard to quantify intangibles, it's not possible, that's what they are lol.

[Boxcar]

Those things I listed do matter, who knows what the how many runs it adds to the team. Who cares? We don't have to shove everything into stats, especially when it hard to quantify the effect.

 

In sports, what matters besides winning? If it helps the team, then there should be a quantifiable effect. Lol @ not caring whether or not "intangiblezzzz" actually help the team perform better. They are still super important, though!

 

You are really out of your element. I'd just stop if I were you.

[theblujay]

In sports, what matters besides winning? If it helps the team, then there should be a quantifiable effect. Lol @ not caring whether or not "intangiblezzzz" actually help the team perform better. They are still super important, though!

 

You are really out of your element. I'd just stop if I were you.

 

I know it's hard for you to understand, but there's more to winning a game then just adding up the stats.

[EdelweissBouquet]

" Trout was responsible for his team winning more games..the actual facylt is that you're an ignorant dumbass who I'm surprised even knows how to operate a computet "

 

With or without trout, the angels are finished for the year..how is that helping the team?

If you want the MVP winner strictly based on numbers..then why even vote on it?

Is there a vote to figure out who the home run leader is, or who should be the best base stealer,the best rbi guy or which pitcher has the most Ks ? GTFO !!

How many times have you seen post where someone says " there's no way anyone could have foreseen yadda yadda yadda ! So in those cases..all the stats and junk

math couldn't predict those players future performances.

Baseball stats pale in comparison to horse racing stats, there are a kazillion number crunching comp programs,and they all have one thing in common,none of them can give you consistent winners even 20 % of the time, in spite of all the piles of data available .

The reason for this ? Because horses, like humans or any living animal are not consistent due to too many variances, and these cannot be converted into numbers to be used as stats.

 

 

NOW PISS OFF YOU MINDLESS DEDICATED FOLLOWER OF FASHION

[EdelweissBouquet]

Intangibles = Runs

 

f***ing NOOOOOOO

 

just follow the pied piper

[EdelweissBouquet]

The MVP is about a season that has already happened. There's no need to predict anything. The facts are in, and Trout has been the best player in the AL. MVP.

 

No, the best player is not the mvp,this is why they vote on it.

 

" Trout helped his team reach its goal (the playoffs) more than Cabrera. " <--- I can't believe you said this.

 

 

So we agree to disagree, lets leave it at that.

Cheers.

[EdelweissBouquet]

" The MVP isn't a team award - it's an award for the most valuable player in the league. To me, the only possible definition for the award is "player who creates the most wins for his team". That player, undoubtedly, is Mike Trout. "

 

Like a previous poster said, it all depends on your definition for MVP.

In your world, trout should be voted the MVP, this is indisputable.

[Boxcar]

I know it's hard for you to understand, but there's more to winning a game then just adding up the stats.

 

So it helps to win, but you have no idea how much, basically.

 

So why even bother worrying about it? Winning breeds chemistry. Having skilled players leads to winning. Is this simple enough for you to understand?

[AdamGreenwood]

A lot of the sheep believe that WAR should be the sole determinant of who wins the MVP.

 

There are of course, other factors.

 

1) Situational hitting. Racking up 4 HR's in a game against the Astros in a 23-0 blowout, is not as valuable as four clutch game-winning home runs.

The best way to capture that, that I'm aware of is Baseball Reference's WPA.

 

Offensively for the AL, it suggests the five biggest offensive contributors have been:

 

1) Davis

2) Cabrera

3) Donaldson

4) Cano

5) Trout

 

One can argue that having teammates on base, or knocking you in increases the chance that your hit will contribute to a win, but if the score is 13-0 because you have awesome teammates, your 8th inning HR doesn't mean anything.

 

2) Team Contributor

 

Bunts don't do much for your WAR. Better to just refuse to bunt.

Playing a position (such as 3rd base) that you are not great at, to make room for a teammate doesn't help your WAR. Better to refuse and just stick at 1st base.

Attempting to steal a base in the 9th inning, when you're down five runs is just as valuable to WAR as stealing a base when the score is tied 2-2 in the seventh. So, stealing when they're not expecting is a great way to boost WAR at the expense of your chance of winning the game.

 

You can argue all you want that clutch isn't repeatable, but a clutch hit is still more VALUABLE than a non-clutch hit.

 

Based on that, a strong argument could be made for Donaldson as MVP.

Edited September 27, 2013 by AdamGreenwood

[AdamGreenwood]

Ahh, I thought it included baserunning. The descriptions are pretty vague.

[Boxcar]

A lot of the sheep believe that WAR should be the sole determinant of who wins the MVP.

 

Said every traditionalist ever.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

He did! Trout did more to help his team make the playoffs than Cabrera. What the Tigers had going for them was a whole bunch of other players helping them make the playoffs. The Angels didn't. That's not Trout's fault.

 

Trout's team wasn't very good this year. I don't have much use for the idea that a player somehow made his team less of a loser then other losing

teams. And in this context, I'd have to note also that Cabrera doesn't have a history of playing on losing teams. A player who excels on a losing team may have the capability to prove himself in winning situations, but excelling on a team going nowhere all year is hardly a true test of value.

 

Interesting how the Angels have a higher team WAR then both the Braves and the Reds.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Cooler Heads Prevail

[AdamGreenwood]

"To me, the only possible definition for the award is "player who creates the most wins for his team". That player, undoubtedly, is Mike Trout. "

 

Do you really think that? Or do you think it should be the player who created/saved the most runs for his team (adjusted by park factors)?

They aren't the same thing, because one is contextual, and one is not.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

"To me, the only possible definition for the award is "player who creates the most wins for his team". That player, undoubtedly, is Mike Trout. "

 

Do you really think that? Or do you think it should be the player who created/saved the most runs for his team (adjusted by park factors)?

They aren't the same thing, because one is contextual, and one is not.

 

And if I read the Fangraphs stat right, according to "WAR" the Angels were a better team then the Braves and the Reds.

[theblujay]

Said every traditionalist ever.

 

Greenwood just basically said the same thing I said a page before.