#PickRicky

[G-Snarls]

How did that even happen...

 

Cause AA lost his mind and outbid the Rangers

[leaffie]

And you're a AA cousin or something......Oh Man, delete this post and make it better.

 

Because I don't agree with some posters, I am AA's cousin. Hardly.

 

I said I didn't like the Dickey trade. But if he had come to this team, and they had all played to their capabilities and made the playoffs, there would not be this cry to fire AA.

 

No one including you, likes every trade or acquisition, no matter who is the coach, gm or manager.

[GD]

Could you imagine the Knuckleball in Texas.

 

I could. So could Texas Rangers fans in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006, where he had an ERA of 5.75.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1245&position=P

[G-Snarls]

I could. So could Texas Rangers fans in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006, where he had an ERA of 5.75.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1245&position=P

 

Was he a knuckleballer in those seasons?

[SpeedyGose]

Wasn't he a standard pitcher in Texas? After those years he realized he couldn't pitch effectively with "normal" pitches and then made the switch to the knuckle ball

[GD]

Was he a knuckleballer in those seasons?

 

Pitch F/X only goes back to 2008 with the Mariners. Recalling his autobiography, I *think* he was. I'm not sure but I think so. Maybe not in his earlier years.

 

Too lazy to do much more research lol.

[GD]

He started throwing the knuckler in 2005.

 

So yeah, with Texas.

[SpeedyGose]

So yeah, with Texas.

 

Lol, I wouldn't exactly say "with Texas" since he pitched all of 33 MLB innings between 05-06. Clearly wasn't close to being refined yet

[wilko]

Let Ricky sail off into the sunset.

[G-Snarls]

Let Ricky sail off into the sunset.

 

With 15.6 Million dollars? I don't think so...

[Boxcar]

The feeling from the posters you AGREE with felt that way . I am not saying that this is right or wrong. But the posters that disagreed were posters that apply a number to ever stat. They have every move calculated out to financial cost, prospect cost, etc. etc. But that is a small portion of the fan base.

 

As indicated by the increase in attendance, TV ratings, cross country interest, and the constant Jays jersey that you see in every ball park they have played in, the majority of fans, do not look at this game as numbers. They don't care what it costs, and they don't care if AA sent prospects off for major league players. They want a team that FINALLY looked like it had a chance. And on paper, that team looked like it had a very good chance, and a lot of baseball experts agreed. This was not just wishful thinking on AA's part.

 

So AA is a bumbling idiot after last off season, but he was very good before that????

 

Certain things came to light that altered my perception of AA along with his list of poor moves.

[BlueJayWay]

[GD]

Hahahahahaha

[Convo]

6.1IP 5H 4ER 6BB 5K

 

At what point do we cut ties? This is pathetic

 

#GotWalks?

[G-Snarls]

6.1IP 5H 4ER 6BB 5K

 

At what point do we cut ties? This is pathetic

 

Classic "2012" RickyRo line right there

[G-Snarls]

If only it wouldn't cost them 15.6 million dollars to cut ties with him this off season

 

What a f'n disaster

[GeorgiaPeach]

He did exactly what a GM is supposed to do. He attempted to put a better club on the field, than the year before. Most pundits had this team making the playoffs.

 

At some point in the near future this will be a tough task for Alex to accomplish. By assembling an old, expensive team, Alex either needs to be able to wave his magical VW wand and deal these 30-something's who are much less desirable and valuable than their prime. And while selling low on them he still needs to add talent at the same time. Otherwise there's gonna be some down years for this organization, because of this urgent approach to drum up fan support which will disappear just as quick as it appeared when the down years happen.

[Captain Adama]

This is common sense? We traded for an ace at the time of the trade. The problem is, he hasn't pitched like an ace at all. He has sucked, big dick.

 

So....no s*** if he won 18 games this year it wouldn't have been as bad of a trade

 

It still would've been a s*** trade.

[GeorgiaPeach]

The feeling from the posters you AGREE with felt that way . I am not saying that this is right or wrong. But the posters that disagreed were posters that apply a number to ever stat. They have every move calculated out to financial cost, prospect cost, etc. etc. But that is a small portion of the fan base.

 

But that small portion of the fanbase that disliked the Marlins trade, is the fanbase that cares. So discarding their opinions is pretty dumb. The casual fanbase is the much larger fanbase, but the flimsiness of each individual casual fan means nothing to me, nor should it to the Jays. It takes an awful lot and long time to actually entrench the casual fan and get them seriously interested in the team. So in 2 or 3 years when the team Alex assembled this year is 3 years older and easily the oldest team in baseball and none of the players worth much in trade and its time to dismantle....how many of those excited casuals will be around when the Jays start sucking ass....mmmmm none. The Jays sped the process up to go for this 3 year window or whatever it is, and pretty much forfeited any chance of winning outside that window.

 

As indicated by the increase in attendance, TV ratings, cross country interest, and the constant Jays jersey that you see in every ball park they have played in, the majority of fans, do not look at this game as numbers. They don't care what it costs, and they don't care if AA sent prospects off for major league players. They want a team that FINALLY looked like it had a chance. And on paper, that team looked like it had a very good chance, and a lot of baseball experts agreed. This was not just wishful thinking on AA's part.

 

Alex sacrificed the future for the now. In 3 years unless a miracle of epic proportions happens, this team stinks and the farm is maybe in the Top 15. And those exuberant fans will be nowhere to be found because they want a winner.

 

So AA is a bumbling idiot after last off season, but he was very good before that????

 

You can't be blind to see that the direction of the team changed drastically. Alex went from making shrewd, creative moves like nabbing Olivo and turning him into a comp pick, to making two large moves that pretty much any GM in baseball could make. Why has Alex completely stopped making creative moves? It's like he's given up?

[leaffie]

This is common sense? We traded for an ace at the time of the trade. The problem is, he hasn't pitched like an ace at all. He has sucked, big dick.

 

So....no s*** if he won 18 games this year it wouldn't have been as bad of a trade

 

 

Right, and that is AA's fault how???

[leaffie]

You can't be blind to see that the direction of the team changed drastically. Alex went from making shrewd, creative moves like nabbing Olivo and turning him into a comp pick, to making two large moves that pretty much any GM in baseball could make. Why has Alex completely stopped making creative moves? It's like he's given up? "

 

Of course not, but that is not what this discussion was about to start with. It was would AA be fired, and I said no. He has done his job, whether the "real" fans appreciate this or not. AA used and abused the sytem, and they changed it. You can't get a draft pick anymore for dumping off players at the deadline. You know this. There are now restrictions on how much you can spend on the international market, so they cut that avenue off.

 

You and I had a similar discussion before the end of last season. I said then, that AA could not and would not let the momentum that was being built, slip away because of all the injuries in 2012. He went out and did what he always said, he used his farm and made trades.

 

"AA sacrificed the future for the now"

 

But the question was and always will be, when was the future? How many years before those prospects came up and made a difference. 3 years, 5 years? They were never all going to get there together, so they were used. The only teams in baseball that seem to manage to get their prospects to the majors and all doing well, is Tampa and St. Louis. You know that the odds of being drafted and having a player actually make it to the majors is about 1 in 5. So all this raving about him thrashing the farm, is tiresome. Who has he traded off, that has over achieved, except Escobar, and that is one mistake that AA needs to own. He should have never traded him, but a bunch of sanctimonious experts decided that he needed to go, including lots that posted on the old board.

 

Yes, he traded prospects, and some that look good. But , succeeding in AA means nothing, until they prove themselves in the majors.

 

I certainly understand the sabremetrics, I understand why they are constantly used to compare A and B. But that is not always the be all/end all of a ballplayer.

I said I didn't like the Dickey trade, not from the very first word of it. But he had successfully pitched for three years, won for a team that was terrible, and won the CY. It is easy to see why AA traded for him. Who else was out there that was willing to come to TO. If this team was to move forward again, it HAD to get some pitching.

 

This "casual" fan tag that seems to get placed on people that don't agree, or don't spend every minute studying prospects sheets is insulting. They can care about the team just as much as anyone. But maybe they don't care about winning 5 years from now. And what exactly is wrong with that? A lot of them have waited a long time, and wanted a team that had a chance. AA put that team on the field. They didn't perform for various reasons, and that is the sad situation of this year.

 

But a GM's job is to run a successful ball club. AA has done that. He said at the time, this was a three year process, and I would suggest that he should be given his three years.

[leaffie]

Managing risk and projecting future performance is kind of his job.

 

Yes, it is kind of his job. But you had a pitcher, that had no injury problems, no TJ surgery in his future. Had successfully pitched to a very good record for three years.

 

You cannot project injuries, no matter who you sign. BUT I REPEAT, I DID NOT LIKE THIS TRADE.

[leaffie]

Good post, its satisfying to see good discussion on here. but One thing i would like to point out is that Our team hasn't exactly been successful in AA's tenure

 

No it hasn't, but I think he took over such a mess with so few legitimate prospects, that when he started building the farm everyone was excited that the Jays were going to go the Tampa route. And I agree that is the way to go. But TO is such a unique situation with FA's not really wanting to sign here, and the length of time since they have even sniffed Sept baseball, that drastic measures were needed.

[leaffie]

I really don't buy this. Over the course of two offseasons Ricciardi managed to sign Frank Thomas, Bengie Molina, BJ Ryan, and AJ Burnett. The only guy he was linked to and missed was Matt Clement. He did this with a very weak Canadian dollar, and payroll much lower than what AA has relative to the rest of the league.

 

Like 29 other GMs, AA should be making use of the free agent market to fill holes, and his inability/unwillingness to do so is squarely on his own shoulders.

 

Frank Thomas was just about at the end of his career. BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett were both overpaid for the market at the time. Some GM's were shocked at the amount of contract that they got.

 

So that leaves Molina, who the Jays should have never let go. So that is not a lot of FA signings for his tenure.

 

Perhaps it is not true, but there have been numerous reports of FA's that have turned down the Jays. The only time that I can remember FA's lining up to come to Toronto, was after they were successful and on the verge of WS wins.

 

Who should AA have signed last year for pitching. I mentioned Lohse in the offseason and was promptly told he would be terrible. But he has looked pretty good to me. But who else was out there on the FA market?

[CHRIS]

So....no s*** if he won 18 games this year it wouldn't have been as bad of a trade

 

In a better context, it may not have necessarily been a terrible trade...i.e., if this team had been knocking on the door for a couple of years and needed a David Cone-type deal to push them over the top, then the deal makes a lot more sense because you would:

 

- be adding to a team that had already shown periods of consistent success

- assume the team had an existing catching option (offensively, defensively or both) that made d'Arnaud more expendable

 

Instead, this team tried to force a bad team into being a veteran, contending team without really know who would play well and who would struggle. The impact of losing d'Arnaud is magnified because you're left with the incompetency that is JPA.

[GeorgiaPeach]

You're really smearing what I consider a casual fan.

[Boxcar]

No it hasn't, but I think he took over such a mess with so few legitimate prospects, that when he started building the farm everyone was excited that the Jays were going to go the Tampa route. And I agree that is the way to go. But TO is such a unique situation with FA's not really wanting to sign here, and the length of time since they have even sniffed Sept baseball, that drastic measures were needed.

 

I don't agree that the Jays were "such a mess" because Ricciardi had better, more successful teams on the field. They are a much bigger mess now than they've ever been.

[leaffie]

I don't agree that the Jays were "such a mess" because Ricciardi had better, more successful teams on the field. They are a much bigger mess now than they've ever been.

 

The farm was a mess, is what I meant to say.

[G-Snarls]

No he wasn't.

 

Right. He became a knuckleballer because he sucked.

[G-Snarls]

It's happening! Per Rogers radio. Ricky up.