Gibbons seriously lacks Creativity as a Manager

[SantosLHalper21]

Something I must admit Joe Madden has plenty of, and Gibby wishes he had. That's creativity.

 

I'm painting a picture right now. Two of your fastest players on your team sit at 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Joel Peralta with a fairly high leg kick and the double steal is not put in place.

 

He had three pitches before Reyes eventually GIDP.

 

I'm getting sick of leaving FAST base runners on the basepaths with less than 2 outs because the manager just doesn't like to steal. It's the main reason why we score runs with Rajai starting games, and its the main reason why they lose games if they order him to stay put, or don't play him in the game.

 

Baseball isn't all about the big jacks, its the small stuff. Running the bases well, sacrificing, and also hitting the ball the other way and moving runners over. It's the one facet of the game offensively the Jays need to do better..and its the small stuff.

 

Unless they want to sign 5 Justin Verlanders to be starters for them, the Jays will need to score runs differently. Get dirty and mix the game up a little bit. I'll never understand Gibby's game calling.

[GD]

Hitting Bautista 2nd for a while was pretty creative and I really liked that. It doesn't make a difference, but it's nice.

[SantosLHalper21]

That wasn't really creative. All he did was try and get his three most dangerous hitters out there in the first inning.

 

The problem I have is that he lives and dies with the long ball, or the extra base hit.

 

The concept of having Reyes, Gose, Pillar, Davis, Buffalo Chicken at 2nd base with 0 or 1 out and not stealing 3rd because...oh..they can get home on a single anyways...is just plain lazy managing.

 

The running game adds so much to your overall attack, and for the Jays...who have a real good blend of speed and power, it really disappoints me to see that only Davis has 15 steals or more this year, when guys like Reyes if healthy, Lawrie, Bonifacio when he was here, and even Izturis should all be in the 15-30 stolen base range.

[SantosLHalper21]

And there you have it. Three times tonight the Jays had 2 runners on with 1 or 0 out and couldn't drive the runner in.

 

The Rays in the 9th walk, and then go the other way (hit the ball where its pitched), and score the game winning run based on good fundamental baseball. Making the pitcher work and battling from 0-2 down to draw the walk, and then going the other way to advance the runner. It was perfectly executed baseball, and it was another instance which displays why Gibbons was hired and fired in the first place. This guy is not a quality baseball manager.

 

When you pay 120+ million for your team, you don't cheap out on the coaching staff. Right now, the Jays are paying for it.

[KingKat]

 

When you pay 120+ million for your team, you don't cheap out on the coaching staff. Right now, the Jays are paying for it.

 

You're implying that they had a well invested 120 million but it's a poorly distributed 120 million. They spend a bunch of money but they went with two backups at 2B. They spent a bunch of money but didn't upgrade from Lind and J.P. They spent a bunch of money on a position (SS) that they didn't need to upgrade. They spent money on veterans but they didn't realize how out of shape some of them were. That's what they're paying for.

[Angrioter]

The strategic contributions of managers have little weight in a 162-game marathon ..... Translate your damn talent in runs and that's it all.

The bullpen management has more weight. I qualify to Gibbons 7/10 managing the bullpen.

[KingKat]

I agree, Gibby could do a bit more in such situations. And while he does manage the bullpen well, he's not the wizard some media members make him out to be. I'm guess I'm pretty indifferent about him in general.

 

Who else would you have want hired though? Gibby has a great relationship with the front office, and I'd rather have that then bring in some big shot who doesn't always see eye-to-eye with AA.

 

At least this time AA didn't waste time and just went with someone he liked. It sure beats dedicating an entire friggin' year to a manager search and still getting it spectacularly wrong.

[GD]

He's an all around average manager. In an offseason that's probably going to be unbelievably important, why the f*** would you waste time looking for another one when you already have a decent manager to make little to no impact?

[Ehh]

we need to upgrade this f***ing pitching staff first

[John_Havok]

SP1, SP2, SP3, LF, C, 2B, DH are all inadequate.

 

Agree. BUt SP1, SP2 and SP3 and C are the no brain concerns that should be at the top of the list.

[KSaw]

There's just one manager in baseball who has probable pitch and probable location signalled to hitters from the 3b coach. Also the only one who commonly uses a take sign. That would be Buck Showalter. For what it's worth, I think that it's pure genius considering all the available scouting data on pitchers.

[Boxcar]

That wasn't really creative. All he did was try and get his three most dangerous hitters out there in the first inning.

 

The problem I have is that he lives and dies with the long ball, or the extra base hit.

 

The concept of having Reyes, Gose, Pillar, Davis, Buffalo Chicken at 2nd base with 0 or 1 out and not stealing 3rd because...oh..they can get home on a single anyways...is just plain lazy managing.

 

The running game adds so much to your overall attack, and for the Jays...who have a real good blend of speed and power, it really disappoints me to see that only Davis has 15 steals or more this year, when guys like Reyes if healthy, Lawrie, Bonifacio when he was here, and even Izturis should all be in the 15-30 stolen base range.

 

I bet you're a huge fan of the sac bunt.

[KSaw]

Obvious move is obvious. Fire Gibbons and hire Manuel.

 

Sarcasm I assume.

[oakville69]

At least this time AA didn't waste time and just went with someone he liked. It sure beats dedicating an entire friggin' year to a manager search and still getting it spectacularly wrong.

 

Agreed. That was an agonizing year when AA had spreadsheets on all the potential managers. He picked Farrell who only wanted to stay for a year with the Jays before he wanted out. I wonder what Farrell would have done with this team in 2013.?

 

I prefer Gibby's in game management. His bullpen management is better than Farrel. The bating order usually makes sense except Izturis in the 2 spot.

[KingKat]

Agreed. That was an agonizing year when AA had spreadsheets on all the potential managers. He picked Farrell who only wanted to stay for a year with the Jays before he wanted out. I wonder what Farrell would have done with this team in 2013.?

 

I prefer Gibby's in game management. His bullpen management is better than Farrel. The bating order usually makes sense except Izturis in the 2 spot.

t

 

Farrell's seeming ignorance of something as basic as platoon splits was a huge red flag. As a fan it was like: We waited all this time for this? This was the first sign that maybe AA didn't have his priorities quite right. The worst part is that in the long run it ended up costing the team Butterfield and all that good defensive alignment work he was doing. That probably had more impact on wins and lose than anything the manager did.

[GD]

The worst part is that in the long run it ended up costing the team Butterfield and all that good defensive alignment work he was doing. That probably had more impact on wins and lose than anything the manager did.

 

Not to mention he actually knew when to f***ing send runners, unlike Rivera.

[TheEndIsNigh]

Something I must admit Joe Madden has plenty of, and Gibby wishes he had. That's creativity.

 

I'm painting a picture right now. Two of your fastest players on your team sit at 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Joel Peralta with a fairly high leg kick and the double steal is not put in place.

 

He had three pitches before Reyes eventually GIDP.

 

I'm getting sick of leaving FAST base runners on the basepaths with less than 2 outs because the manager just doesn't like to steal. It's the main reason why we score runs with Rajai starting games, and its the main reason why they lose games if they order him to stay put, or don't play him in the game.

 

Baseball isn't all about the big jacks, its the small stuff. Running the bases well, sacrificing, and also hitting the ball the other way and moving runners over. It's the one facet of the game offensively the Jays need to do better..and its the small stuff.

 

Unless they want to sign 5 Justin Verlanders to be starters for them, the Jays will need to score runs differently. Get dirty and mix the game up a little bit. I'll never understand Gibby's game calling.

How ironic, your post lack creativity. A lot to complain about, the manager is really not one of them, this is just a bad team.

[KSaw]

It is a bad team. It's just frustrating because its a talented bad team. It's also a team loaded with the same kinds of offensive players-- mistake hitters who hit mistakes hard and far. There is a huge lack of professional hitter types, hitters who help grind out runs against a good pitcher who is on his game. This isn't something a manager can change. Honestly, a healthy Reyes and Melky all year would have gone a long way to balance the offence. Neither was healthy all year and Melky wasn't healthy for any of it.

[FireAlexAnthopoulos]

I've yet to hear a good reason why Gibbons should be exempt from all blame for this disaster of a season. His last stint here was a disaster and NOBODY else wanted him. Hiring him was a risk, and he's done nothing to validate the decision to bring him back.

 

IMO, this season has been a total team failure, from Rogers to Beeston/AA to Gibbons and his staff to the players. I don't understand the meltdown people have when Gibbons in particular gets criticized for this season.

[KSaw]

I've yet to hear a good reason why Gibbons should be exempt from all blame for this disaster of a season. His last stint here was a disaster and NOBODY else wanted him. Hiring him was a risk, and he's done nothing to validate the decision to bring him back.

 

IMO, this season has been a total team failure, from Rogers to Beeston/AA to Gibbons and his staff to the players. I don't understand the meltdown people have when Gibbons in particular gets criticized for this season.

 

Disaster? Two winning seasons out of his three full years, including an 87 win second place finish. That's not setting the World on fire but hardly a disaster. This year he was handed a team without a catcher. That's an automatic free pass!

[KSaw]

And I'm lost on the high risk/ no one would hire him thing. He left Toronto and was snatched up as the Royals bench coach for 3 years. He then left to move back into managing, taking the AA job with the Padres. He left the Padres to return to Toronto. He was never out of the game and was added to the All-Star Game staff for the American League this year.

[GD]

I've yet to hear a good reason why Gibbons should be exempt from all blame for this disaster of a season.

 

He. Is. A. f***ing. Manager. SERIOUSLY

[FireAlexAnthopoulos]

Disaster? Two winning seasons out of his three full years, including an 87 win second place finish. That's not setting the World on fire but hardly a disaster.

When you're getting in fistfights with your players, it's a disaster. When your organization decides they would rather have a 64-year-old who hadn't managed in over a decade than you, it's a disaster.

 

He. Is. A. f***ing. Manager. SERIOUSLY

Guess the Red Sox should have kept Valentine then, right? Somehow I doubt they regret firing him after last season's debacle. Clearly managers are important or teams would have long since stopped paying for them.

[GD]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=&ind=0&team=3&players=0

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=3&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Those are the 2013 Red Sox.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=3&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=3&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Those are the 2012 Red Sox.

 

The Red Sox added Napoli, Victorino, Dempster, Ross, got a rebound from Lester, got contributions from guys like Workman, Britton and Webster, traded for Peavy, Thornton, etc. They played under their pytho in 2012 and got not only added key free agents, they also had rebound years and progression.

 

They're on pace for ~52 fWAR this year. They had 30.9 last year.

 

Now let me ask you. Do you think John Farrell is responsible for a 20 fWAR improvement?

[Dick_Pole]

Obviously a manager has some impact on the team in some way. Just because it's not easily quantifiable doesn't mean it's not there.

[KingKat]

Obviously a manager has some impact on the team in some way. Just because it's not easily quantifiable doesn't mean it's not there.

 

How can something be not easily quantifiable and at the same time obviously be there? Something can't be obvious and invisible at the same time.

[John_Havok]

Quantifiable is not the same as being visible. Yes managers have an impact, but exactly how much of an impact in terms of wins and losses is not easily quantifiable.

[KingKat]

Quantifiable is not the same as being visible. Yes managers have an impact, but exactly how much of an impact in terms of wins and losses is not easily quantifiable.

 

But he didn't just say it was visible (which itself is debatable), he said it was obvious. So it's this impossible to measure things that in spite of this is somehow obvious.

[Dick_Pole]

But he didn't just say it was visible (which itself is debatable), he said it was obvious. So it's this impossible to measure things that in spite of this is somehow obvious.

 

Really this is your argument? Might as well go start piling some burgers into your mouth right now. The impact of you doing that isn't easily quantifiable on your chances of getting a heart attack down the road, so it's not obvious that you doing that will adversely impact your health.

 

Managers have impact on the game. Whether it's keeping personalities in check (or failing to do so), making ground-level decisions or giving advice on who to keep on the 25-man roster, having significant feedback on the coaching staff or getting players focused on every game (or failing to do so), they matter. That's why some get paid millions of dollars to perform that function in baseball. But no, apparently 13 year olds and other random internet posters think they know better.

 

I'll agree to this - over the years the manager's influence on the game has waned. A good manager decades ago would be like what a computer is today in terms of a database of knowledge about the game. Now any idiot online can tell that Rajai Davis and Adam Lind would make a pretty good platoon by looking up some data on Yahoo Sports or wherever. The other aspect of that is with rising player salaries, players get babied a lot more now than back then. Bobby Valentine-like managerial styles don't work anymore but may have been a lot more effective in the old days.

[KingKat]

Really this is your argument? Might as well go start piling some burgers into your mouth right now. The impact of you doing that isn't easily quantifiable on your chances of getting a heart attack down the road, so it's not obvious that you doing that will adversely impact your health.

 

Actually that would be quantifiable but I'm not going to continue to argue semantics with you. My point it that I don't see how it is productive to make assumptions about something you can't qualify. No you probably shouldn't assume it's has zero impact but you can't say it's obvious. Nobody knows.