Can Dickey Blame the Offense Again?

[Angrioter]

I never liked and never will like having a knuckleballer as a top-rotation ACE.

That was the 1st mistake, think that a knuckleballer was going to be consistent for 3 years pitching at the Rogers Centre or the AL East. A lot of questions that most of this forum knew before the negotiation (including AG); this makes our manager be trash.

 

Surplus value = negative

[GD]

Just the value of the prospect package, in context.

 

i.e. the Jays paid more for old man Dickey than the Phillies paid for a *basically* prime Halladay.

 

I'm probably wrong though. I have no idea how highly regarded Taylor was.

 

Taylor was regarded fairly high, even though we immediately flipped him for Brett Wallace (which I think was our plan all along). Wallace was also regarded fairly well, but IIRC the package for Halladay was no where near the one for Dickey.

 

What most forget though is that Anthopoulos worked with absolutely no leverage. Halladay had 10-5 rights I think and I remember him saying that he wanted to go to the Phillies, so he didn't really have much to work with, it's not a fair comparison.

[Captain Adama]

Just the value of the prospect package, in context.

 

i.e. the Jays paid more for old man Dickey than the Phillies paid for a *basically* prime Halladay.

 

I'm probably wrong though. I have no idea how highly regarded Taylor was.

 

Taylor was seen as a guy who was resting on previous laurels about his hitting, he grew too big and too slow for a CF. Phillies' 4th best prospect.

 

You consider Becerra in the deal as well, but he's basically so far off the majors right now.

[GD]

Taylor was seen as a guy who was resting on previous laurels about his hitting, he grew too big and too slow for a CF. Phillies' 4th best prospect.

 

You consider Becerra in the deal as well, but he's basically so far off the majors right now.

 

Didn't his face get abused by a 95 mph fastball last year? That's not good for prospect stock lol.

[Laika]

What most forget though is that Anthopoulos worked with absolutely no leverage. Halladay had 10-5 rights I think and I remember him saying that he wanted to go to the Phillies, so he didn't really have much to work with, it's not a fair comparison.

 

I don't think Halladay ever said "Philly". He just wanted to get traded to a contender.

You could say similar things about Dickey. The deal was contingent on an extension, and he was only gonna sign one with certain teams.

 

To say that Anthopoulos didn't have any leverage is fallacious. He had the best pitcher in baseball to shop. That's plenty of leverage right there.

[crrr]

Trading for Dickey before the season, without any understanding of how good or bad we were was a mistake. AA needed to assess the Jays potential before shipping off two of our best prospects.

 

My main point is for a win now team, prospects, especially one in A ball are of little value. Obviously TDA was thought to be able to contribute, but they may have known a bit more than we do about his durability, which looks like a fairly major concern going forward.

 

There was plenty of reason to believe the team was good, and there still is. They've played much better in May than April, they just got screwed by the fact they put up a terrible April. It also doesn't help that they have had some fairly major injuries

[Captain Adama]

Didn't his face get abused by a 95 mph fastball last year? That's not good for prospect stock lol.

 

It certainly downgrades his handsomness factor. Although I don't think he had a good one to start with.

[Captain Adama]

My main point is for a win now team, prospects, especially one in A ball are of little value. Obviously TDA was thought to be able to contribute, but they may have known a bit more than we do about his durability, which looks like a fairly major concern going forward.

 

There was plenty of reason to believe the team was good, and there still is. They've played much better in May than April, they just got screwed by the fact they put up a terrible April. It also doesn't help that they have had some fairly major injuries

 

Although lots of the players acquired major injury concerns.

[Laika]

My main point is for a win now team, prospects, especially one in A ball are of little value

 

And then we can go back to the wonderfully factual overarching point that the Blue Jays never shouldve been pushed into "win now" mode to begin with.

 

AA made a bad decision to begin with, and then he confounded it by executing his ill advised course of action poorly.

[o2cui2i]

I can just see Rasmus coming up after Dickey walks a few to ask him: "so, how was it you wanted me to defend the walk again?? was my defensive positioning ok for ya big guy?

[Angrioter]

And then we can go back to the wonderfully factual overarching point that the Blue Jays never shouldve been pushed into "win now" mode to begin with.

 

AA made a bad decision to begin with, and then he confounded it by executing his ill advised course of action poorly.

 

-Dickey AL East ACE

-Buehrle money

-JPA over dArnaud/Buck/Mathis

[GD]

I think John Buck may actually be worse than JPA

[Rajaifailedgrade1]

I think John Buck may actually be worse than JPA

 

No, not possible

[Angrioter]

I think John Buck may actually be worse than JPA

 

Wrong

Buck is a one x one year player, you don't expect great things from him. JPA instead is "future catcher of the organization"

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=2041&position=C&page=0&players=697

[Laika]

Buck WAR/120G = 1.25

JPA WAR/120G = 0.75

 

JPA is 27 years old. He's not really a "prospect" / future / upside play anymore. He is what he is, and a case can be made that fWAR actually overrates him.

[Angrioter]

Buck WAR/120G = 1.25

JPA WAR/120G = 0.75

 

JPA is 27 years old. He's not really a "prospect" / future / upside play anymore. He is what he is, and a case can be made that fWAR actually overrates him.

 

Both below the replacement-level. I choose the "a single year option" (Buck)

[oakville69]

I never liked and never will like having a knuckleballer as a top-rotation ACE.

That was the 1st mistake, think that a knuckleballer was going to be consistent for 3 years pitching at the Rogers Centre or the AL East. A lot of questions that most of this forum knew before the negotiation (including AG); this makes our manager be trash.

 

Surplus value = negative

 

That's a good point. I wonder why AA was so hyped about getting Dickey. Was he the best available starting pitcher in the offseason?

 

Was it done to sell tickets in 2013? "NL CY Young" is pretty good from a marketing perspective.

[GD]

Wrong

Buck is a one x one year player, you don't expect great things from him. JPA instead is "future catcher of the organization"

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=2041&position=C&page=0&players=697

 

He's not really a young guy anymore, JPA

[GD]

Both are below average (2 WAR). Replacement level is 0 WAR. Though like njh alluded to, there's a case to be made that JPA is indeed below replacement level.

 

If that case is pitch framing, John Buck is ~2 times worse than J.P. Arencibia. Yes, 2. JPA estruns; -12. Buck estruns; -24. He's that bad.

 

*numbers according to Fast's spreadsheet*

[IronLadle]

Taylor was regarded fairly high, even though we immediately flipped him for Brett Wallace (which I think was our plan all along). Wallace was also regarded fairly well, but IIRC the package for Halladay was no where near the one for Dickey.

 

What most forget though is that Anthopoulos worked with absolutely no leverage. Halladay had 10-5 rights I think and I remember him saying that he wanted to go to the Phillies, so he didn't really have much to work with, it's not a fair comparison.

 

The Mets and Dickey were struggling to negotiate a deal and Dickey openly said he forgo negotiation talks after the season started. AA had leverage but lacked the patience.

[GD]

The Mets and Dickey were struggling to negotiate a deal and Dickey openly said he forgo negotiation talks after the season started. AA had leverage but lacked the patience.

 

But Dickey didn't state he only wanted to go to the Jays; he had no control over who he went to.

[IronLadle]

Both below the replacement-level. I choose the "a single year option" (Buck)

 

Buck costs 6 million, Arencibia half a million - I'll take J.P

[Angrioter]

That's a good point. I wonder why AA was so hyped about getting Dickey. Was he the best available starting pitcher in the offseason?

 

Was it done to sell tickets in 2013? "NL CY Young" is pretty good from a marketing perspective.

 

Anibal Sanchez?

[IronLadle]

But Dickey didn't state he only wanted to go to the Jays; he had no control over who he went to.

 

The Halladay trade worked out for both sides and I remember Halladay saying he'd wave the no trade clause for a few other contending teams, it wasn't just the Phillies.

[GD]

The Halladay trade worked out for both sides and I remember Halladay saying he'd wave the no trade clause for a few other contending teams, it wasn't just the Phillies.

 

I'm pretty sure the other ones were the Yankees/Red Sox (like we would do that) and Angels (who had no farm). AA was in a real tough spot.

[IronLadle]

I'm pretty sure the other ones were the Yankees/Red Sox (like we would do that) and Angels (who had no farm). AA was in a real tough spot.

 

I think the dodgers too (Kershaw would be nice) but probably would have played for any contending team.