GDT: O's @ Jays: Game 4/4 (3:07 ET)

[jaysblue]

It's been reported on multiple Blue Jays broadcasts that the Jays offered Gibson the same $10 million contract but he chose to sign with the Orioles. Aside from overpaying relative to the competition a Gibson signing simply wasn't in the cards. There's little point to bemoaning how the front office didn't sign him because they made him a competitive offer that he chose to decline.

 

Yup, cherry pick arguments now as you do with stats to defend this front office. You're another huge homer and apologist on this board! I'm not bemoaning how the front office failed to sign Gibson. I was using it as an example how he has been more valuable than Bassitt so far and only has a one-year commitment versus 3 years. I was criticizing Atkins on giving an aging starter like Bassitt $60M over 3 years.

[Spanky99]

I guess I was being nice towards Atkins and giving him too much credit haha. Also, probably made that comment after his 9 inning shutout/complete game back at the beginning of May and also when he went 8 innings one game.

 

Has he continued that level moving forward? You can say he's been inconsistent since and has been meh. Again, nothing against Bassitt. He's been solid this season. Is he worth $60+ million over 3 years? My concern given his age and financial commitment, could end up being a bad signing. We'll see.

 

Regardless, he's a back-end No. 3 starter/No. 4 starter IMO.

 

Nah, that was after the trade, Bassitt's been a fine #3.

[Spanky99]

It's been reported on multiple Blue Jays broadcasts that the Jays offered Gibson the same $10 million contract but he chose to sign with the Orioles. Aside from overpaying relative to the competition a Gibson signing simply wasn't in the cards. There's little point to bemoaning how the front office didn't sign him because they made him a competitive offer that he chose to decline.

 

If this is true, conversation over, lol.

[Spanky99]

Yup, cherry pick arguments now as you do with stats to defend this front office. You're another huge homer and apologist on this board! I'm not bemoaning how the front office failed to sign Gibson. I was using it as an example how he has been more valuable than Bassitt so far and only has a one-year commitment versus 3 years. I was criticizing Atkins on giving an aging starter like Bassitt $60M over 3 years.

 

We get it, man. That contract remains to be seen, do you have to bring it up every few days, are you looking for some type of validity, it was a very good signing by the O's, great value. There, have some peace. Also, all he's saying is the Jays were in on him and he declined our offer. If that's the case, well, s*** happens.

[Stangstag]

We get it, man. That contract remains to be seen, do you have to bring it up every few days, are you looking for some type of validity, it was a very good signing by the O's, great value. There, have some peace. Also, all he's saying is the Jays were in on him and he declined our offer. If that's the case, well, s*** happens.

 

Nonono you see if the Jays offer 1 million more than the next highest offer they can have anyone they want!!!

 

Jays should’ve signed Bassitt for less money, the absolute dumbos!

[max silver]

Yup, cherry pick arguments now as you do with stats to defend this front office. You're another huge homer and apologist on this board! I'm not bemoaning how the front office failed to sign Gibson. I was using it as an example how he has been more valuable than Bassitt so far and only has a one-year commitment versus 3 years. I was criticizing Atkins on giving an aging starter like Bassitt $60M over 3 years.

 

Just take the loss and move on man. I love how people instantly throw out the "cherry pick" argument every time they lose a debate. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, as it's obvious you are massaging the statistics when comparing these two pitchers as the one and only statistic you have been using all along to compare Bassitt and Gibson is FIP. Bassitt has been a FIP beater for his entire career, and that is happening this season as well. Bassitt has a better ERA as well as a better xERA vs Gibson to back this up as well.

 

You can piss and moan all day long about how the front office chose to sign Bassitt instead of Gibson, but the fact is they tried to sign Gibson and he chose a different offer. I just love how you spend so much time bitching and moaning about the front office with all of this hind sight criticism. It would be awesome if the front office could just choose every player they wanted to sign and get them signed at discount rates. I hate to break it to you but there is competition among all of MLB's teams for free agents and sometimes there is a need to pony up and pay market rate to sign quality free agents.

[Spanky99]

Rekt... waiting for the jaysblue... lol

[jaysblue]

Just take the loss and move on man. I love how people instantly throw out the "cherry pick" argument every time they lose a debate. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, as it's obvious you are massaging the statistics when comparing these two pitchers as the one and only statistic you have been using all along to compare Bassitt and Gibson is FIP. Bassitt has been a FIP beater for his entire career, and that is happening this season as well. Bassitt has a better ERA as well as a better xERA vs Gibson to back this up as well.

 

You can piss and moan all day long about how the front office chose to sign Bassitt instead of Gibson, but the fact is they tried to sign Gibson and he chose a different offer. I just love how you spend so much time bitching and moaning about the front office with all of this hind sight criticism. It would be awesome if the front office could just choose every player they wanted to sign and get them signed at discount rates. I hate to break it to you but there is competition among all of MLB's teams for free agents and sometimes there is a need to pony up and pay market rate to sign quality free agents.

 

I'm not pissing and moaning, just stating that its not one of Atkins better FA signings. Given how this team is close to the luxary tax threshold, that $20M each season towards Bassitt in 2024 and 2025 could prove costly and tie up the hands of this FO from adding another significant piece during the offseason or at the trade deadline, unless Rogers approves it.

 

You're one of the biggest homers on this board. Anytime anyone criticizes Atkins, you come rushing to his defense. You pretty much think Atkins can do no wrong and its sickening. Not worth arguing with you and Brownie who pretty much both wear blinders when its come to Atkins and this FO.

[max silver]

I'm not pissing and moaning, just stating that its not one of Atkins better FA signings. Given how this team is close to the luxary tax threshold, that $20M each season towards Bassitt in 2024 and 2025 could prove costly and tie up the hands of this FO from adding another significant piece during the offseason or at the trade deadline, unless Rogers approves it.

 

You're one of the biggest homers on this board. Anytime anyone criticizes Atkins, you come rushing to his defense. You pretty much think Atkins can do no wrong and its sickening. Not worth arguing with you and Brownie who pretty much both wear blinders when its come to Atkins and this FO.

 

I have no issues with calling out the front office, but I just don't think some of it is really warranted. You make all of these simple minded complaints about who the team chooses to sign and act like each one of these individual moves happens in a vacuum without being part of an overarching plan with multitudes of possible combinations to reach the eventual end goal of improving the team. Obviously not every one of these moves is going to ultimately work out, but I've generally been happy with the majority of signings and trades the team has made. The team will need to start developing and/or acquiring more cost effective rotation options if sustained contention is to remain feasible, but in the mean time I have no problems spending money on established rotation options vs rolling the dice on riskier players.

 

In a perfect world it would be great if Bassitt signed for 2 years vs 3, but at the same time I don't pretend I know where he even fell in their order of preference with regards to who they wanted to bring aboard. There were reports of taking a shot at Verlander, Heaney and Gibson as well, so far all we know Bassitt very well may have been plan D or something of that sort. Obviously it would be preferable that they convince every one of their preferred targets to sign with them aside from an obvious overpay, but with the way you've been constantly carrying on about Gibson it seems like you would have preferred the team pony up the extra cash to roll the dice on a guy who has relatively been a bit mediocre for a good chunk of his career. In the end he simply wasn't available to them at market rate, so your whole argument/comparison is built on a house of cards.

[jaysblue]

I have no issues with calling out the front office, but I just don't think some of it is really warranted. You make all of these simple minded complaints about who the team chooses to sign and act like each one of these individual moves happens in a vacuum without being part of an overarching plan with multitudes of possible combinations to reach the eventual end goal of improving the team. Obviously not every one of these moves is going to ultimately work out, but I've generally been happy with the majority of signings and trades the team has made. The team will need to start developing and/or acquiring more cost effective rotation options if sustained contention is to remain feasible, but in the mean time I have no problems spending money on established rotation options vs rolling the dice on riskier players.

 

In a perfect world it would be great if Bassitt signed for 2 years vs 3, but at the same time I don't pretend I know where he even fell in their order of preference with regards to who they wanted to bring aboard. There were reports of taking a shot at Verlander, Heaney and Gibson as well, so far all we know Bassitt very well may have been plan D or something of that sort. Obviously it would be preferable that they convince every one of their preferred targets to sign with them aside from an obvious overpay, but with the way you've been constantly carrying on about Gibson it seems like you would have preferred the team pony up the extra cash to roll the dice on a guy who has relatively been a bit mediocre for a good chunk of his career. In the end he simply wasn't available to them at market rate, so your whole argument/comparison is built on a house of cards.

 

You never think any criticism of this FO is warranted haha.

 

Again, my main argument was not arguing Gibson is a better signing that Bassitt. I was mainly criticizing the Jays for handing over 60M to an aging starter who is more of a No. 3/4 guy. Just was using Gibson as an example, showing how the Orioles don't have a long term commitment and will have money to spend whereas the Jays have 20M each tied up the next two seasons to Bassitt after this. But you flipped it around making it sound like I was complaining the Jays should have signed Gibson instead of Bassitt.

 

Of course, with every move Atkins makes, you're going to give him a free pass, using execuses or saying well yeah the Jays had to overpay, defending him. I bet you even defend him on signing Morales and Roark lol

 

Again, I have nothing wrong with Bassitt. He's been decent this season and hasn't been awful. Not a fan of him paying him 40M over the next two seasons when this team is up against the luxury tax threshold. That was my main argument and you with Brownie flipped turning around everything to fit your agenda!

[jaysblue]

While I'm at it to get you homers started and fired up: AA was a better GM and baseball mind during his time with the Jays than Atkins has been!

[max silver]

You never think any criticism of this FO is warranted haha.

 

Again, my main argument was not arguing Gibson is a better signing that Bassitt. I was mainly criticizing the Jays for handing over 60M to an aging starter who is more of a No. 3/4 guy. Just was using Gibson as an example, showing how the Orioles don't have a long term commitment and will have money to spend whereas the Jays have 20M each tied up the next two seasons to Bassitt after this. But you flipped it around making it sound like I was complaining the Jays should have signed Gibson instead of Bassitt.

 

Of course, with every move Atkins makes, you're going to give him a free pass, using execuses or saying well yeah the Jays had to overpay, defending him. I bet you even defend him on signing Morales and Roark lol

 

Again, I have nothing wrong with Bassitt. He's been decent this season and hasn't been awful. Not a fan of him paying him 40M over the next two seasons when this team is up against the luxury tax threshold. That was my main argument and you with Brownie flipped turning around everything to fit your agenda!

 

For the most part Bassitt has been really solid this season. If you give him a bit of a mulligan for his clunker first start he's been very effective overall pitching to a 3.48 ERA. FIP is higher at 4.2 but even so he's been pitching like a 3 WAR pitcher for most of the season. He mixes in the odd stinker along with some total gems, but I'll take that every day from a team's third starter. The team had some massive question marks in what to expect out of Berrios and Kikuchi so I don't know if going for a cheap bounceback contract option was necessarily the best play for a team hoping to challenge for the division. Who knows if they might have signed multiple starters and stashed Kikuchi in the pen or something but it turned out well that they gave him another shot to stick in the rotation.

[Stangstag]

You never think any criticism of this FO is warranted haha.

 

Again, my main argument was not arguing Gibson is a better signing that Bassitt. I was mainly criticizing the Jays for handing over 60M to an aging starter who is more of a No. 3/4 guy. Just was using Gibson as an example, showing how the Orioles don't have a long term commitment and will have money to spend whereas the Jays have 20M each tied up the next two seasons to Bassitt after this. But you flipped it around making it sound like I was complaining the Jays should have signed Gibson instead of Bassitt.

 

Of course, with every move Atkins makes, you're going to give him a free pass, using execuses or saying well yeah the Jays had to overpay, defending him. I bet you even defend him on signing Morales and Roark lol

 

Again, I have nothing wrong with Bassitt. He's been decent this season and hasn't been awful. Not a fan of him paying him 40M over the next two seasons when this team is up against the luxury tax threshold. That was my main argument and you with Brownie flipped turning around everything to fit your agenda!

 

We don’t need the same daily criticism though.

 

This is like the people complaining about the Varsho trade every day.

 

Do we need to bring this s*** up every day/every time Bassitt has a mediocre start?

[Stangstag]

While I'm at it to get you homers started and fired up: AA was a better GM and baseball mind during his time with the Jays than Atkins has been!

 

I dont think this is a controversial opinion?

[max silver]

I dont think this is a controversial opinion?

 

I think it's at least up for debate. For every Anthopoulos master stroke you can just as easily point to a complete disaster move including a few that maybe should have seen him fired. He made a great move dumping Vernon Wells onto the Angels and got Mike Napoli in return. He then undid a lot of the good and subsequently made an awful move by trading Napoli for Frank Fransisco. He made a series of moves which helped alter the fortunes of the franchise, when he traded Shaun Marcum for Brett Lawrie, who he was then able to use to swindle Billy Beane out of Josh Donaldson. But then he turned around and traded a top of the rotation stud and top catching prospect for a 40 year old knuckleball pitcher. He was great at extending the right players for bargain prices (Bautista and Edwin) but then also made some awful trades like the Marlins deal where he traded a lot of prospect capital for 2nd year free agent signings, foregoing the initial year of a deal when you expect to receive top value. The icing on the cake for this clunker of a trade became apparent years later when David Samson revealed that Josh Johnson, who was a centerpiece of the entire deal failed his physical, but the trade went through anyway.

 

People seem to conveniently forget that for most of his tenure the team ran with a stars and scrubs approach. We were treated to the vetrin presents era, where barely functional veteran babysitters like Omar Vizquel and Mark DeRosa were brought in to serve as nothing more than solid clubhouse presences despite having nothing left to offer on the field. He managed to build a legitimately great team with a 2 year window that eventually collapsed, and his final gift to the organization was emptying the prospect cupboards on the way out the door. The man did a lot of good for the organization as a whole but at the same time he made a ton of mistakes along the way as well.

[BigCecil]

I dont think this is a controversial opinion?

 

This Board will always be the same. AA is the Great Satan to some that will never be forgiven for the Noah deal, and this FO is a precise machine.

 

At this point after 15-16 & going all in to sign Vlad revitalizing a franchise that was in the doldrums since '93 - with what he has done to win and build a sustainable long term winner in ATL, he has run laps around this FO results wise.

[metafour]

I dont think this is a controversial opinion?

 

Blue Jays record during AA's tenure:

 

2010: 85-77

2011: 81-81

2012: 73-89

2013: 74-88

2014: 83-79

2015: 93-69

 

Fans like jaysblue conveniently forget that prior to that 2015 trade deadline, the general fan consensus was that AA was a failure and needed to be fired. He had made a ton of "blockbuster" moves over several seasons that added significant salary to the payroll but barely moved the needle at all in terms of the team's playoff aspirations.

 

It's kind of funny how in half a season in 2015 after one magical run he went from failure to "best GM in the league" according to Jays fans. Yes that 2015 team was underperforming their Pythagorean expected record in the first half of the season so it's not surprising that they went on a run, but it's also entirely possible that one or two injuries happen and the team slumps and that run never even materializes at all. Everything fell properly for the Jays, including scrubs like Chris Collabello emerging as impact bats. You can give AA credit for 2016 as well (after he left) since it was still essentially his team, so you can conclude that his "build" in fact succeeded as it led to two playoff appearances, but for all that work he put in over ~5 seasons all he managed to build was a team with a two-season window of contention. His roster had zero possibility of contention past 2016 because even in 2015 all of the best players on the team were seconds away from inevitable collapse (which is exactly what happened - by 2017 the ~five core position players alone had seen a collective ~66% drop in their fWAR from 2015).

 

The other thing that doesn't get brought up is that the AL East was significantly weaker in 2015 than it has been the past three seasons while Atkins has tried to contend. Only the Jays and Yankees finished over .500 in 2015. Take a look at the past three seasons and there are 3-4 teams out of 5 in the East who have been legitimate playoff teams. The Yanks are currently in last place and they're 4 games over .500 which is absurd. This means that Atkins' road to wins has been SIGNIFICANTLY tougher.

[Stangstag]

This Board will always be the same. AA is the Great Satan to some that will never be forgiven for the Noah deal, and this FO is a precise machine.

 

At this point after 15-16 & going all in to sign Vlad revitalizing a franchise that was in the doldrums since '93 - with what he has done to win and build a sustainable long term winner in ATL, he has run laps around this FO results wise.

 

His work in Atlanta has been remarkable but I don’t think he would have had the same level of success if he didn’t try and fail in Toronto, then go on to learn more in the Dodgers front office.

 

He was much better-equipped his second go around as GM.

[Stangstag]

Blue Jays record during AA's tenure:

 

2010: 85-77

2011: 81-81

2012: 73-89

2013: 74-88

2014: 83-79

2015: 93-69

 

Fans like jaysblue conveniently forget that prior to that 2015 trade deadline, the general fan consensus was that AA was a failure and needed to be fired. He had made a ton of "blockbuster" moves over several seasons that added significant salary to the payroll but barely moved the needle at all in terms of the team's playoff aspirations.

 

It's kind of funny how in half a season in 2015 after one magical run he went from failure to "best GM in the league" according to Jays fans. Yes that 2015 team was underperforming their Pythagorean expected record in the first half of the season so it's not surprising that they went on a run, but it's also entirely possible that one or two injuries happen and the team slumps and that run never even materializes at all. Everything fell properly for the Jays, including scrubs like Chris Collabello emerging as impact bats. You can give AA credit for 2016 as well (after he left) since it was still essentially his team, so you can conclude that his "build" in fact succeeded as it led to two playoff appearances, but for all that work he put in over ~5 seasons all he managed to build was a team with a two-season window of contention. His roster had zero possibility of contention past 2016 because even in 2015 all of the best players on the team were seconds away from inevitable collapse (which is exactly what happened - by 2017 the ~five core position players alone had seen a collective ~66% drop in their fWAR from 2015).

 

The other thing that doesn't get brought up is that the AL East was significantly weaker in 2015 than it has been the past three seasons while Atkins has tried to contend. Only the Jays and Yankees finished over .500 in 2015. Take a look at the past three seasons and there are 3-4 teams out of 5 in the East who have been legitimate playoff teams. The Yanks are currently in last place and they're 4 games over .500 which is absurd. This means that Atkins' road to wins has been SIGNIFICANTLY tougher.

 

Oh im not saying I agree with the opinion that AA > Shatkins overall, but I am saying that its not a very controversial take.

[jaysblue]

I think it's at least up for debate. For every Anthopoulos master stroke you can just as easily point to a complete disaster move including a few that maybe should have seen him fired. He made a great move dumping Vernon Wells onto the Angels and got Mike Napoli in return. He then undid a lot of the good and subsequently made an awful move by trading Napoli for Frank Fransisco. He made a series of moves which helped alter the fortunes of the franchise, when he traded Shaun Marcum for Brett Lawrie, who he was then able to use to swindle Billy Beane out of Josh Donaldson. But then he turned around and traded a top of the rotation stud and top catching prospect for a 40 year old knuckleball pitcher. He was great at extending the right players for bargain prices (Bautista and Edwin) but then also made some awful trades like the Marlins deal where he traded a lot of prospect capital for 2nd year free agent signings, foregoing the initial year of a deal when you expect to receive top value. The icing on the cake for this clunker of a trade became apparent years later when David Samson revealed that Josh Johnson, who was a centerpiece of the entire deal failed his physical, but the trade went through anyway.

 

People seem to conveniently forget that for most of his tenure the team ran with a stars and scrubs approach. We were treated to the vetrin presents era, where barely functional veteran babysitters like Omar Vizquel and Mark DeRosa were brought in to serve as nothing more than solid clubhouse presences despite having nothing left to offer on the field. He managed to build a legitimately great team with a 2 year window that eventually collapsed, and his final gift to the organization was emptying the prospect cupboards on the way out the door. The man did a lot of good for the organization as a whole but at the same time he made a ton of mistakes along the way as well.

 

LMAO of course its up to debate with you hahaha!

[jaysblue]

I dont think this is a controversial opinion?

 

MaxSilver just proved otherwise. Brownie19 will be sharing his input shortly as well lol.

[jaysblue]

We don’t need the same daily criticism though.

 

This is like the people complaining about the Varsho trade every day.

 

Do we need to bring this s*** up every day/every time Bassitt has a mediocre start?

 

I'm not daily criticizing the Bassitt contract lol. I made a comment on some of the good deals Atkins made and some of the questionable ones, with Bassitt mentioned in the questionable. Brownie19 then got his pitch forks and went all Karen to start an argument haha.

[metafour]

This Board will always be the same. AA is the Great Satan to some that will never be forgiven for the Noah deal, and this FO is a precise machine.

 

At this point after 15-16 & going all in to sign Vlad revitalizing a franchise that was in the doldrums since '93 - with what he has done to win and build a sustainable long term winner in ATL, he has run laps around this FO results wise.

 

His time in Atlanta is irrelevant to the discussion as it is OBVIOUSLY influenced by what he learned under Friedman in LA.

 

He is a completely different GM now than he was with the Jays. With the Jays he had shown a few elite tools (which are still there today), but he had significant flaws elsewhere which is why his tenure in general was all over the place. Those are the actual facts. When he went to the Dodgers he got to learn from the best organization in baseball which helped him iron out his deficiencies. Before that all he had worked under was Ricciardi.

[BigCecil]

His work in Atlanta has been remarkable but I don’t think he would have had the same level of success if he didn’t try and fail in Toronto, then go on to learn more in the Dodgers front office.

 

He was much better-equipped his second go around as GM.

 

Fair. He did fail some in TOR. Took a big swing in the Marlins deal that didnt work out. But then took big swings extending Jose and Edwin under market after 1 big season each, and trading Lawrie Graveman for JD. That was the nucleus of the offense that got them deep into two post seasons with no extra wild card. Norris and Boyd for Price almost got us into the WS.

 

He swung big using all of his international money to sign Vlad. Another big risk. Not a fail.

 

You can debate this all day long but he had some success and failure in TOR and he is nailing it in ATL mostly. He will have some misses there too. But he has big balls.

[BigCecil]

His time in Atlanta is irrelevant to the discussion as it is OBVIOUSLY influenced by what he learned under Friedman in LA.

 

He is a completely different GM now than he was with the Jays. With the Jays he had shown a few elite tools (which are still there today), but he had significant flaws elsewhere which is why his tenure in general was all over the place. Those are the actual facts. When he went to the Dodgers he got to learn from the best organization in baseball which helped him iron out his deficiencies. Before that all he had worked under was Ricciardi.

 

I didn't know you were on the inside in the LA organization to know all these "actual facts". Thanks for sharing. I cant top that!

[jaysblue]

I think it's at least up for debate. For every Anthopoulos master stroke you can just as easily point to a complete disaster move including a few that maybe should have seen him fired. He made a great move dumping Vernon Wells onto the Angels and got Mike Napoli in return. He then undid a lot of the good and subsequently made an awful move by trading Napoli for Frank Fransisco. He made a series of moves which helped alter the fortunes of the franchise, when he traded Shaun Marcum for Brett Lawrie, who he was then able to use to swindle Billy Beane out of Josh Donaldson. But then he turned around and traded a top of the rotation stud and top catching prospect for a 40 year old knuckleball pitcher. He was great at extending the right players for bargain prices (Bautista and Edwin) but then also made some awful trades like the Marlins deal where he traded a lot of prospect capital for 2nd year free agent signings, foregoing the initial year of a deal when you expect to receive top value. The icing on the cake for this clunker of a trade became apparent years later when David Samson revealed that Josh Johnson, who was a centerpiece of the entire deal failed his physical, but the trade went through anyway.

 

People seem to conveniently forget that for most of his tenure the team ran with a stars and scrubs approach. We were treated to the vetrin presents era, where barely functional veteran babysitters like Omar Vizquel and Mark DeRosa were brought in to serve as nothing more than solid clubhouse presences despite having nothing left to offer on the field. He managed to build a legitimately great team with a 2 year window that eventually collapsed, and his final gift to the organization was emptying the prospect cupboards on the way out the door. The man did a lot of good for the organization as a whole but at the same time he made a ton of mistakes along the way as well.

 

Can't we say the same thing with Atkins? We can compare and list every FA signing/trade and assess every single thing, but let's look at the overall picture.

 

AA came on after the 2009 season, taking over a failed J.P. Ricciardi regime. He was left with the tough task trading the greatest Blue Jays pitcher in franchise history right from the start. Tough assignment for a rookie GM.

 

Under AA, the Blue Jays built back the farm system into one of the best in baseball. He then used some of those assets to acquire MLB pieces. Yes some of those MLB pieces didn't work out like Josh Johnson, etc., though a lot of those prospects he moved didn't go onto having All-Star careers by any means. Musgrove the exception later on when he went to San Diego. Sure the Syndegaard deal for Dickey stung but Thor after 2016 was done anyways. But yeah I'll definitely criticize AA on that trade for RA Dickey. Definitely an overpay at the time. Dickey was solid during his time here but wasn't the same pitcher who won the Cy Young. But yeah I'll call out AA on that trade and not afraid to unlike you when it comes to Atkins.

 

AA locked up core pieces such as Bautista and EE to extremely team friendly contract extensions which helped him afterwards add more to the core. He went out and signed Russell Martin, who was amazing during his first two seasons here and traded for Josh Donaldson who won AL MVP in 2015. Then in 2015 at the trade deadline, he made some big time moves and went after the best pitcher at the deadline in David Price, a legitimate ace at the time, traded Jose Reyes for Troy Tulowitzki who was still solid here, and also made some other nice small moves to solidify this core. They went on a big run in the second half and pretty much were World Series contenders in 2015.

 

AA was here from 2010-2015. During those five seasons, the Jays came close to a World Series. Sucks the Royals were hot that season but otherwise on paper the Jays had the best chance at reaching a World Series since 1993, over two decades. In 2016, the Jays also had a great chance at getting to the World Series, but lost a tough matchup to a hot Cleveland team. I know Shapiro/Atkins already took over, but that 2016 team for the most part was because of AA. As for saying he only created a two-year window, we'll never know since he was never retained after 2015, so who knows.

 

Regardless, in the span of five years, AA brought the Jays closer to a World Series than Atkins has done in 8 years. As well, the Jays during AA's tenure didn't have the two extra WC spots as Atkins had in 2022 and moving forward. So definitely to make the Postseason in 2015 and 2016, it was tougher for the Jays. Right now the Jays wouldn't be making the Postseason if the new WC and Postseason matchups weren't in effect.

[jaysblue]

His work in Atlanta has been remarkable but I don’t think he would have had the same level of success if he didn’t try and fail in Toronto, then go on to learn more in the Dodgers front office.

 

He was much better-equipped his second go around as GM.

 

Yeah very true.

 

AA did have his failures here in Toronto, and as a super AA homer I'll admit that unlike the Atkins homers on here haha.

 

But considering in the span of five seasons, AA almost brought the Jays to a World Series, when it was tougher to make the Postseason. So far under Atkins in his 7+ seasons here (not counting 2016), the Jays with the current core haven't even won a Postseason series.

[BigCecil]

Love to stay and debate this all day but my son is playing 15U AAA Tier 1 AB provincial championships today 2 games. He is hitting 4 and pitching. So I will be sitting in the OF stressing my ass off with my heart racing smoking cigars and praying the boys play well! Have a good one.

 

This may be heresy but I almost feel sorry for Luis Severino. Such a talented guy with amazing stuff and IL issues getting historically lit up.

[max silver]

Can't we say the same thing with Atkins? We can compare and list every FA signing/trade and assess every single thing, but let's look at the overall picture.

 

AA came on after the 2009 season, taking over a failed J.P. Ricciardi regime. He was left with the tough task trading the greatest Blue Jays pitcher in franchise history right from the start. Tough assignment for a rookie GM.

 

Under AA, the Blue Jays built back the farm system into one of the best in baseball. He then used some of those assets to acquire MLB pieces. Yes some of those MLB pieces didn't work out like Josh Johnson, etc., though a lot of those prospects he moved didn't go onto having All-Star careers by any means. Musgrove the exception later on when he went to San Diego. Sure the Syndegaard deal for Dickey stung but Thor after 2016 was done anyways. But yeah I'll definitely criticize AA on that trade for RA Dickey. Definitely an overpay at the time. Dickey was solid during his time here but wasn't the same pitcher who won the Cy Young. But yeah I'll call out AA on that trade and not afraid to unlike you when it comes to Atkins.

 

AA locked up core pieces such as Bautista and EE to extremely team friendly contract extensions which helped him afterwards add more to the core. He went out and signed Russell Martin, who was amazing during his first two seasons here and traded for Josh Donaldson who won AL MVP in 2015. Then in 2015 at the trade deadline, he made some big time moves and went after the best pitcher at the deadline in David Price, a legitimate ace at the time, traded Jose Reyes for Troy Tulowitzki who was still solid here, and also made some other nice small moves to solidify this core. They went on a big run in the second half and pretty much were World Series contenders in 2015.

 

AA was here from 2010-2015. During those five seasons, the Jays came close to a World Series. Sucks the Royals were hot that season but otherwise on paper the Jays had the best chance at reaching a World Series since 1993, over two decades. In 2016, the Jays also had a great chance at getting to the World Series, but lost a tough matchup to a hot Cleveland team. I know Shapiro/Atkins already took over, but that 2016 team for the most part was because of AA. As for saying he only created a two-year window, we'll never know since he was never retained after 2015, so who knows.

 

Regardless, in the span of five years, AA brought the Jays closer to a World Series than Atkins has done in 8 years. As well, the Jays during AA's tenure didn't have the two extra WC spots as Atkins had in 2022 and moving forward. So definitely to make the Postseason in 2015 and 2016, it was tougher for the Jays. Right now the Jays wouldn't be making the Postseason if the new WC and Postseason matchups weren't in effect.

 

It's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison to say AA accomplished more than Atkins in 5 years vs 8 years because Atkins had to rebuild the organization from the ground up after Anthopoulos emptied the farm system on the way out of the door. AA would have been left with the same challenges rebuilding the team and would have been unlikely to make any more post season appearances during his next 3 years as GM had he chosen to stay. Assuming a similar 3 year rebuilding window now you are left with a GM who made the playoffs twice in an 9 year span, which certainly changes the calculus of the overall discussion to a great degree.

 

I think Atkins was in the learning phase in his first few years as Blue Jays GM, and much like Anthopoulos he has made some mistakes along the way which can serve as learning experiences. He really should have gotten more in return for Josh Donaldson than Julian Merryweather, and even qualifying Donaldson and letting him walk in free agency likely would have been preferable to get a compensation pick in return. The Grichuk extension was a mistake as there was no rush to extend the guy as he hadn't even reached arbitration yet. This was a pretty small dollar deal so didn't hamstring the organization to a great degree, but I think this was a learning opportunity to avoid early career extensions before gathering enough data beforehand. This likely helped Aktins avoid making a giant mistake by offering Vlad a franchise player extension after his monster 2021 season. I think some of the early career duds for Atkins were during a bit of a murky period where the team was looking to remain at least semi competitive vs a complete tanking style rebuild, as there were no big deals handed out in free agency and none of the better prospects were traded to supplement the major league team either as the organization chose to build from within. Signings like Pierce, Garcia, Roark, Morales etc. were all ultimately regrettable for the most part but all of these were low value bargain hunting/reclamation style signings which were likely hoping to gather tradeable assets that could be moved at the trade deadline.

 

Ultimately Atkins tenure as Blue Jays general manager is going to be defined by his ability or lack thereof to get the team over the hump to allow them to have success in the post season. He's built a solid window of contention with a homegrown core supplemented with free agent signings and trades. The team has certainly grown expensive and it will be difficult to sustain contention moving forward due to the financial challenges posed by the core growing increasingly expensive. The front office needs to start replacing the aging veterans with younger cost controlled players sooner rather than later if the window of contention is to be sustained past Vlad and Bo's remaining years of control.

Edited August 6, 2023 by max silver