General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Jimcanuck]

Absolutely, AA wasn't perfect. But the the one thing you knew about him was that he knew his team inside and out and wasn't afraid. He made moves and if he saw that one particular aspect wasn't what was expected he didn't just stubbornly insist that he was right and do nothing. We saw that with Jose Reyes. After that big trade, which on the surface was fine. Buehrle was a workhorse and the others looked promising. (I mean who could see that Josh Johnson and Reyes would suddenly go from all stars to the outhouse overnight) he didn't just do nothing, he went and got Tulowitzki and by rights should have gone all the way.

 

Some fans have got this mistaken idea that Rogers interference is the cause of our woes. And to that I say Hogwash. If a GM doesn't have the stones to stand up and push back against ownership and do what he thinks is right, than he isn't worth having, and at least AA did that.

 

Shapiro strikes me as a guy who is content to collect high draft choices and tank for however many years it takes to build a winner. But to me what's the point. A village idiot could do that. And unless you have an eye for talent there's no guarantee you'll select the right guys in the draft.

 

AA had his strengths. And he made it clear he was building for a short window of contention. That window is now passed. What we watched in 2015/2016 and what we are watching now, are a direct result of AA going all in.

[Bobthe4th]

Honestly just because a guy is new HERE doesn't mean they have nothing to add. I've posted on several forums including on PSD blue jays forum for 5 years. I have no problem admitting I'm banned there for 30 days for not posting the "company line". I'm gonna post what I believe to be objectively true regardless of whether its popular opinion or not. Feel free to disagree. But I'm of the opinion that if everyone only said what others "want to hear" nobody would ever learn anything.

 

Mate, the thing with this board is that admittedly there is little patience with people who post "unusual" opinions, but that's mainly because of a few things:

 

a. the majority of posters rely on analytics (facts) rather than emotion to help shape their opinions;

 

b. there's a long history of new/troll accounts created and if you're a new account you can often be lumped in with that group;

 

c. quite often when someone takes the time to patiently offer counterpoints to the latest "the front office is the worst in baseball, and this team is the worst in history!!!!" style posts, OP response is to double down, ignore the counterpoints and just restate their point in a slightly different way with added hyperbole and insults. It's difficult to take someone seriously if their first few posts are in that style.

 

d. this being the internet, a lot of the regular posters are quicker to act like dicks than they would in RL (though of course we have our share of through and through dickheads!);

 

 

There are opportunities for healthy debate here, but you've got to be prepared to back up opinions with evidence, and have a thick skin (don't take it personally when someone insults or disagrees with you). If someone doesn't have either, then a forum like Reddit would be better suited - the community is much larger and usernames are basically irrelevant so no one is going to pigeon hole that person as a bad/good poster.

[Carlos Danger]

AA had his strengths. And he made it clear he was building for a short window of contention. That window is now passed. What we watched in 2015/2016 and what we are watching now, are a direct result of AA going all in.

 

Out of all the prospects AA traded at the deadline 2015, which ones if still with us would have made a difference? Boyd is pitching ok, I guess, 4 plus years later. Who else... The current regime cannot blame AA for the current situation. As a matter a fact, they should be thankful for what we still have from AA's regime.

[Bobthe4th]

AA had his strengths. And he made it clear he was building for a short window of contention. That window is now passed. What we watched in 2015/2016 and what we are watching now, are a direct result of AA going all in.

 

Not sure if you intended it to, but this makes it sound like we wouldn't have needed a rebuild if we didn't go all in - which is wrong. We were a good but aging team before all the 2015 deadline trades.

[Jimcanuck]

Not sure if you intended it to, but this makes it sound like we wouldn't have needed a rebuild if we didn't go all in - which is wrong. We were a good but aging team before all the 2015 deadline trades.

 

The going all in for the window of contention started with the Miami blockbuster, when the swapping of youth for older players started.

[Bobthe4th]

The going all in for the window of contention started with the Miami blockbuster, when the swapping of youth for older players started.

 

Nah, that was AA taking advantage of Miami's salary dump.

[Jimcanuck]

Nah, that was AA taking advantage of Miami's salary dump.

 

Nah, it was to kickstart a window of contention. And 'taking advantage' is debateable.

[Carlos Danger]

Nah, that was AA taking advantage of Miami's salary dump.

 

The Miami trade was not bad, just didn't work out, you can't blame AA for that.. He did fine up until the Mets trade when he stepped on his Dickey..

[mikepelfrey]

AA had his strengths. And he made it clear he was building for a short window of contention. That window is now passed. What we watched in 2015/2016 and what we are watching now, are a direct result of AA going all in.

I disagree. I think what we are seeing now is 100% on Shapiro. He used AA as a scapegoat. He decided to let Price walk. He decided to bring in 16 30 years or older veterans to win after AA left. Let us not forget Vlad Guerrero was signed by AA not Shapiro. Shapiro saw that he could ride the coat tails of what AA built and then use AA as a scapegoat to blame him for however long it took to win again.

 

How is saying he inherited an old team helped by signing 16 players aged 32 and older or just letting price walk out the door? Or giving Morales and Bautista Pearce, Grilli,Saltalamachia, Hawkins, etc etc contracts. This is Shapiros 4th year and all he has added is Jansen,Bichette, Grichuk and Pearson, and because of his obvious flaws I don't really see Grichuk as a positive. Not when he's hitting .230 with a .290 Obp. congratulations you're another fan who bought Shapiro's scam company line. Since Shapiro has been here the payroll has risen by $46M more than enough to pay for Price and all he's gotten for Price, Martin, Donaldson, Estrada, Tulo and Osuna is Giles and Merryweather.

 

100% on Shapiro. He could have traded the AA guys when he walked in the door and gotten a ton of prospects, if that's what he believed. He didnt, he CHOSE to do as he did and got nothing of consequence.

 

What you're seeing is 100% on the choices Shapiro made. And there was nothing wrong with the dickey trade. How many reigning Cy Youngs making $5M have you seen traded. Are you honestly telling us that you wouldn't trade Aaron Sanchez for Max Scherzer right now if you could?

Edited June 1, 2019 by mikepelfrey

[Bobthe4th]

Nah, it was to kickstart a window of contention. And 'taking advantage' is debateable.

 

You said it was the beginning of "all in" you obviously don't understand what "all in" means. Ask tercet for a lesson in poker!

[Carlos Danger]

I disagree. I think what we are seeing now is 100% on Shapiro. He used AA as a scapegoat. He decided to let Price walk. He decided to bring in 16 30 years or older veterans to win after AA left. Let us not forget Vlad Guerrero was signed by AA not Shapiro. Shapiro saw that he could ride the coat tails of what AA built and then use AA as a scapegoat to blame him for however long it took to win again.

 

How is saying he inherited an old team helped by signing 16 players aged 32 and older or just letting price walk out the door? Or giving Morales and Bautista contracts. This is Shapiros 4th year and all he has added is Jansen,Bichette, Grichuk and Pearson, and because of his obvious flaws I don't really see Grichuk as a positive. Not when he's hitting .230 with a .290 Obp. congratulations you're another fan who bought Shapiro's scam company line. Since Shapiro has been here the payroll has risen by $46M more than enough to pay for Price and all he's gotten for Price, Donaldson, Estrada, Tulo and Osuna is Giles and Merryweather.

 

100% on Shapiro.

 

Jansen is AA, Not Shapiro... Giles is Osuna who was AA. Estrada and Happ in 2016 were LaCava... On the ML roster now.. Biggio, in the wings Bichette are the Shapiro prospects... Thorton is all Shapiro..

[Jimcanuck]

You said it was the beginning of "all in" you obviously don't understand what "all in" means. Ask tercet for a lesson in poker!

 

You forget, after the 2013 offseason trades the Jays were the favourites to win the WS. The Miami and Mets trades were definitely going all in.

[Jimcanuck]

I disagree. I think what we are seeing now is 100% on Shapiro. He used AA as a scapegoat. He decided to let Price walk. He decided to bring in 16 30 years or older veterans to win after AA left. Let us not forget Vlad Guerrero was signed by AA not Shapiro. Shapiro saw that he could ride the coat tails of what AA built and then use AA as a scapegoat to blame him for however long it took to win again.

 

How is saying he inherited an old team helped by signing 16 players aged 32 and older or just letting price walk out the door? Or giving Morales and Bautista Pearce, Grilli,Saltalamachia, Hawkins, etc etc contracts. This is Shapiros 4th year and all he has added is Jansen,Bichette, Grichuk and Pearson, and because of his obvious flaws I don't really see Grichuk as a positive. Not when he's hitting .230 with a .290 Obp. congratulations you're another fan who bought Shapiro's scam company line. Since Shapiro has been here the payroll has risen by $46M more than enough to pay for Price and all he's gotten for Price, Martin, Donaldson, Estrada, Tulo and Osuna is Giles and Merryweather.

 

100% on Shapiro. He could have traded the AA guys when he walked in the door and gotten a ton of prospects, if that's what he believed. He didnt, he CHOSE to do as he did and got nothing of consequence.

 

A lot wrong with this post. Signing a bunch of age 30-plus crap to short term contracts to fill team holes during a rebuild (and with the hope they do well and can be moved for youth), is just baseball 101.

 

What the team is doing now is immaterial. Building a winner is a multi year process. See: Astros, Houston.

[Bobthe4th]

I disagree. I think what we are seeing now is 100% on Shapiro. He used AA as a scapegoat. He decided to let Price walk. He decided to bring in 16 30 years or older veterans to win after AA left. Let us not forget Vlad Guerrero was signed by AA not Shapiro. Shapiro saw that he could ride the coat tails of what AA built and then use AA as a scapegoat to blame him for however long it took to win again.

 

How is saying he inherited an old team helped by signing 16 players aged 32 and older or just letting price walk out the door? Or giving Morales and Bautista contracts. This is Shapiros 4th year and all he has added is Jansen,Bichette, Grichuk and Pearson, and because of his obvious flaws I don't really see Grichuk as a positive. Not when he's hitting .230 with a .290 Obp. congratulations you're another fan who bought Shapiro's scam company line. Since Shapiro has been here the payroll has risen by $46M more than enough to pay for Price and all he's gotten for Price, Donaldson, Estrada, Tulo and Osuna is Giles and Merryweather.

 

100% on Shapiro.

 

Hey Mike, you know what I said about reacting to people pointing out the flaws in badly evidenced posts (a few posts up)? Here's your test on how you react:

 

Our farm is ranked top 3 by most sources, the current state of the franchise does not begin and end with the MLB players.

 

Signing David Price would have been a very expensive mistake. He's signed for another 4 years when he'll be 37. He would have helped the first year (when we made the playoffs anyway) but wouldn't have made us a playoff team since then. The size of his contract would also have limited our financial flexibility.

 

The main players that contributed to us having a great team a few years ago nearly all stopped being valuable assets - some from injury (Travis, Sanchez), some through age (Bautista), and Osuna (though we managed to rescue the situation with a great trade). The front office had no affect on any of those declines, and they still would have happened if AA had stayed.

 

It's true that not many trades and acquisitions have worked out under Shatkins, but even if they had it just means we'd be a year or 2 ahead of where we are now. We'd be a promising team looking to add proven players to become a contender - something that will happen naturally in a few years based on the strong farm we have.

 

We are rebuilding, you shouldn't be surprised that the current MLB team sucks. However, we are not the Orioles, we have lots of prospects (some already here) that have a great chance to develop into above average players for us in the next few years.

[Captain Adama]

*checks last 2 pages

 

*pukes

[metafour]

The Miami trade was not bad, just didn't work out, you can't blame AA for that.. He did fine up until the Mets trade when he stepped on his Dickey..

 

He could have signed Buehrle and Reyes for nothing but money just a year prior, instead he PAID Miami in prospect capital to take a year of their surplus value and then dump the monstrosity of their contracts onto us. Reyes and Josh Johnson were known high-risk players: Reyes being a speed-driven player who was bound to fall apart at any moment due to his collection of injuries and age, and Josh Johnson who already had TJ surgery two-years prior and shoulder inflammation the year prior in a season wherein he was already showing cracks. They were poor risks to take; just like it was a poor risk to expect Tulowitzki to do anything other than completely fall apart.

 

The ramification of that trade stretches far beyond just the assets given up as that deal alone added a hilarious amount of payroll that barely pushed the needle. This is the exact reason why he then went into that the following season (a "contention year") with clear desperation moves like pushing Osuna and Castro from A-ball to the MLB bullpen, rushing Norris into the rotation, rushing Pompey into the OF, etc. Those moves were made because we had holes to fill on the roster but no money to do so in free agency, because he spent it all the year prior and didn't get anywhere near his money's worth. Even Buehrle who was a "success" wasn't exactly giving much surplus value as he was paid something like ~$16 mill a year. Rogers wouldn't give him any more money to spend so he was forced to rush prospects up. Osuna ended up being a huge success, but the other three were flops predictably as they had no business being thrown into their roles (like Castro essentially being the 8th-inning set-up man LMAO).

[Bobthe4th]

You forget, after the 2013 offseason trades the Jays were the favourites to win the WS. The Miami and Mets trades were definitely going all in.

 

Again you don't seem to understand what "all in" means. The Miami trade in no way comes under that description. The 2015 deadline trades do.

 

Dickey is debatable, technically not "all in" and was instead spending prospect capital to improve the team (something everyone agrees in theory is the right thing to do at the right time, even though obviously the Dickey trade was a bad one).

 

TBF this is a pointless debate about semantics.

[Carlos Danger]

He could have signed Buehrle and Reyes for nothing but money just a year prior, instead he PAID Miami in prospect capital to take a year of their surplus value and then dump the monstrosity of their contracts onto us. Reyes and Josh Johnson were known high-risk players: Reyes being a speed-driven player who was bound to fall apart at any moment due to his collection of injuries and age, and Josh Johnson who already had TJ surgery and shoulder inflammation the year prior.

 

The ramification of that trade stretches far beyond just the assets given up as that deal alone added a hilarious amount of payroll that barely pushed the needle. This is the exact reason why he then went into that the following season (a "contention year") with clear desperation moves like pushing Osuna and Castro from A-ball to the MLB bullpen, rushing Norris into the rotation, rushing Pompey into the OF, etc. Those moves were made because we had holes to fill on the roster but no money to do so in free agency, because he spent it all the year prior and didn't get anywhere near his money's worth. Even Buehrle who was a "success" wasn't exactly giving much surplus value as he was paid something like ~$16 mill a year. Rogers wouldn't give him any more money to spend so he was forced to rush prospects up. Osuna ended up being a huge success, but the other three were flops predictably as they had no business being thrown into their roles (like Castro essentially being the 8th-inning set-up man LMAO).

 

It would have been impossible to sign Buerhle and Reyes.. They were NOT going to Toronto in FA and we didn't have enough budget to even move the needle by paying them double what Miami paid them which is what it might have taken to have them return our calls.

 

FA was not an option for those two.

[mikepelfrey]

Nope wrong again. Jimcanuck,He signed those 16 32 And older players the winter AA left, fresh off a 93 win season. The same year he complained that AA emptied the farm and left him an old team. That's what you do, right? Complain you have an old team and then immediately sign 16 players 32 and older. As if the cure to old age is to add even more. Edited June 1, 2019 by mikepelfrey

[mikepelfrey]

Jansen is AA, Not Shapiro... Giles is Osuna who was AA. Estrada and Happ in 2016 were LaCava... On the ML roster now.. Biggio, in the wings Bichette are the Shapiro prospects... Thorton is all Shapiro..

You're right. It's one less plus for shapiro

[metafour]

It would have been impossible to sign Buerhle and Reyes.. They were NOT going to Toronto in FA and we didn't have enough budget to even move the needle by paying them double what Miami paid them which is what it might have taken to have them return our calls.

 

FA was not an option for those two.

 

Uhhh, what?

 

They both signed with a s*** team (Miami) in a non-tradition baseball market because they offered the most money. Neither of those two chose Miami because it is some "attraction" destination for MLB free agents. Using that logic, you don't think they would have signed here had we offered a bit more money? Guys like AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan DID sign here under similar situations.

[mikepelfrey]

No it is not ranked top 3. And most sources like baseball America which has them ranked #7 says that most of that ranking is due to guerrero, who is an AA signing. John Manuel of minor league ball says minus Guerrero and Bichette the Jays system would fall to between 18-20 it's an extremely top heavy system

[metafour]

 

MIA trade was good. Best guy we gave up is f***ing Jake Marisnick. We gave up better young players in other trades like Musgrove.

 

Again, read the remainder of what I wrote. The sheer amount of payroll they added there FORCED them to "get creative" (ie: desperate) to later improve the roster after those moves didn't push the needle as much as they thought. So no, it wasn't a good trade because it put us in payroll hell. A big reason why the Dickey trade was even made was because his age meant that he would sign for a team-friendly deal because he didn't have the leverage to ask for more...so the IDEA was that they were getting a "Cy Young pitcher" at a cost that could fit within Rogers' budget.

[Captain Adama]

No it is not ranked top 3. And most sources like baseball America which has them ranked #7 says that most of that ranking is due to guerrero, who is an AA signing. John Manuel of minor league ball says minus Guerrero and Bichette the Jays system would fall to between 18-20 it's an extremely top heavy system

 

What a shocker, you're wrong just like literally everything else you've said,

[Jimcanuck]

MIA trade was good. Best guy we gave up is f***ing Jake Marisnick.

 

Can't look at it that way, solely. The salary commitment taken on reduced the flexibility to make other moves, and the players traded could have been used in a different trade, etc.

 

Miami trade was a mixed result, would not call it good.

[Carlos Danger]

Uhhh, what?

 

They both signed with a s*** team (Miami) in a non-tradition baseball market because they offered the most money. Neither of those two chose Miami because it is some "attraction" destination for MLB free agents. Using that logic, you don't think they would have signed here had we offered a bit more money? Guys like AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan DID sign here under similar situations.

 

Dude, it is Florida, big fnnn houses on Biscayne bay, zero state taxes, a supposed commitment to be competitive.. There was no way in hell either of those guys would have signed in Toronto.. NO fnnnn way...! They basically both made it clear.

[mikepelfrey]

Sirbjay.You're an idiot I have the 2019 baseball America prospect guide right here and John Manuel's minor league guide right here as well. So not only are you an idiot you're an illiterate one at that sirbjay

 

Maybe if you spent a little money and you know actually read them you wouldn't be so uninformed. I love it when guys like you who don't even bother to read any expert opinions spout out their ignorance

 

But the guides. Read them. Then talk. Till then your opinion is like your ass. Full of shyte

[metafour]

There is no optimal way to use payroll space. It's either FA or trades. FA is a f***ing disaster and AA never went that way. We had to fill payroll and compete one way or another, otherwise trade Jose, Eddie, etc and rebuild during the only time where BOS/NYY suck ass. We had a black hole at SS after Yunel Escobar wrote a slur on his face and we HAD to trade him. And we got good players back for him somehow.

 

Rogers could have just spent more money too. I remember the players passing the hat for Ervin Santana.

 

There is no easy way to win a WS. Sometimes you will be inefficient somewhere along the way. If you want to argue who he traded prospects for, I'm fine with that.

 

The Dickey trade is just f***ing retarded in every single way, there's nothing I can say about that.

 

There is an optimal way to spend money: its called not trading for guys who are 30+ with obvious injury risk who you will have to pay tens of millions of dollars to because the team you are buying them from just overpaid out the ass to sign them a year prior. Who in their right mind was "surprised" that Josh Johnson got hurt? If you knew anything about the player, you wouldn't have been.

 

Kind of like how anyone with a brain should have been able to see that Troy Tulowitzki would pose a high risk of being a bad investment.

[Jimcanuck]

You're an idiot I have the 2019 baseball America guide right here and John Manuel guide right here as well. So not only are you an idiot you're an illiterate one at that sirbjay

 

So did Mr. Manuel make those comments before or after the big strides Pearson and Groshan have made this year, among others? Jays prospects have been doing very well this year. Quite unlikely the farm ranking drops to 18-20.

[Carlos Danger]

What a shocker, you're wrong just like literally everything else you've said,

 

I just Googled it. We are not ranked top 3 and most of the ranking that have us around the 5 range consider Vlad, SRF. (bust so far) Jansen, Bichette who will be in the majors soon enough..

 

I don't think we are down past 15, but we are not top 3 consensus and our 5 ranking was with a lot of guys who are on the ML team now or so far busts like SRF to this point.